Free from sin

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Nov 26, 2011
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#41
You see folks it is the children of God whom are manifested to the world by the very fact that they are DOERS of righteousness.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Any individual engaged in the doing of evil (willful known wrongdoing) is not a child of God.

It is really that simple.

Jesus saves us FROM sin and redeems us FROM all iniquity. The very power of God operating within our hearts destroys the work of the devil in our lives. We yield to God and the result is love out of a pure heart, faith unfeigned and a good clean conscience.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

This is the only state by which we can stand before God without condemnation. We may experience this via the means of the cross by which we are truly set free from bondage. Not a cross that effects some fantasy substitute which serves to cloak ongoing sinning, no, a cross in which we partake and truly find redemption by which the power of God fills our entire being and we henceforth shine as light to the world.

Wretches and sinners are not shining lights.
 
Jun 23, 2015
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#42
Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

5 So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#43
Peter walked on the water until he took his eyes off of Christ then he began to sink. Jesus did not allow Peter to perish but rescued him from his foolishness.

If we say we have no sin we make Christ a liar.

How many times will you visit this subject before you conclude that Gods word does not change. Gods word does not support your contentions today and will not support them tomorrow.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Nor will it ever...no matter how many times they reject 1st John1:8, Romans, The words of Jesus, Isaiah, and numerous other writers that sought forgiveness for sin....up to and including Daniel, Paul, Peter, the fornicating Corinthian brother, the brothers and sisters in Christ from the Corinthian Church that corrupted the Lord's supper...........people who say they are above sin and or never sin are deceived and the truth is not in them!
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#44
Salvation is wrought through FOLLOWING IN THE STEPS of Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Who is justified in the sight of God? It is those whom WALK IN THE STEPS of faith.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.


There are a very many totally deceived people who wish so much for a "faith reckoned as righteousness" which is disconnected from a "walking in the steps."

In other words, there are a very many totally deceived people who wish for a justification without wholehearted obedience to God being a requirement.

Many of these deceived people will attempt to imply that "obedience comes later" as a RESULT of faith (the truth is that real faith and obedience go hand in hand, ie. two sides of the same coin). Thus with this deceptive implication they ensure the notion that one can disobey God for a period of time and not be under condemnation. That notion is Satan's lie of "ye can sin and surely not die."

Ask any of these people when any particular sin has to stop. They will dance around such a question because in their mind they don't think any sin actually has to stop. In their mind rebellion to God is not the issue at all. They have been deceived by "sin paid in full" (not in Bible), "Jesus paid my fine" (not in Bible), "Jesus died in my place" (not in Bible), whereby they think that all their crimes (even future crimes) have been paid for in full already. The modern so called "Christianity" that promotes this stuff is the stupidest and most dangerous religion ever invented. It produces converts engaged in all manner of rebellion to God who actually think that they will enter the kingdom because they "trust in Jesus." Yet they ignore the very teachings that Jesus taught completely.

Beware of the wolves.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Have we been watching?

Have we been watching?

Three years of tearful warnings sounds like Paul took the issue pretty seriously.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Turning grace into something else?

Denying God and denying Jesus Christ?

Jesus taught we must HEAR AND DO, we must PICK UP OUR CROSS, we must FOLLOW HIM, we must LOSE OUR LIFE TO FIND LIFE, we must PICK UP THE PLOW AND NOT LOOK BACK, we must COUNT THE COST, we must DENY OURSELVES, we must KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, we must DO AS HE SAID, FEW WILL BE SAVED, we must STRIVE, etc.

Do any religious people deny those things today?
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#45
Dear Skinski:

While I am strongly against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and while I am for being a slave to righteousness versus the wrong flipside of the coin which is being a slave to sin, I do not agree with your view on ignoring the Substitionary Atonement. The Substitionary Atonement goes into effect when a believer yields their life to Christ whereby the Lord then does the good work within them. Believers who obey the words of Jesus are those of whom Christ died in their place. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus took the cup that had all of mankind's sin in it. This can also be seen in the story of Joseph whereby Judah was willing to lay down his life for his younger brother for a cup of guilt (that they did not deserve). That is why he had sweat great drops of blood. He took on our sin (That was undeserved). Then from this point Christ was later whipped and beaten after he was captured. This then lines up with what we read in Isaiah 53:5. "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us (2 Corinthians 15:21). I mean, why would Christ bear our sins in his body on the cross if he did not become our substitute? It doesn't make any sense.

For the Scriptures say,

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends (John 15:13).

In other words, if I push one of my buddies out of the way of a moving truck, I am substituting my life for his life. I am dying in his place. That is what it means when Christ lay down his life for us. For Christ became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Jesus is still the author of salvation. It is not us. It is Christ working in us who is our salvation. Yes, we must cooperate with the Lord and yield and surrender to Christ and the work He wants to do in us (According to His Word). But it is God who deserves all the glory, honor, and power (It is never us). We are nothing without Christ. For the light we are to shine is Christ and not ourselves.

I hope you understand where I am coming from and I say this with love (of course).

In any event, please be well.
And may God bless you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...
 
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Jul 22, 2014
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#46
How can Christ pay for my sins if he didn't die in my place for my sins?

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22).

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8).

If Christ died for "us" that would include "me." So Christ died for "me." He was my substitute.

Yes, it is true, grace does not cover present unrepentant sin or unconfessed future sin as some OSAS proponents like to claim (Which would give people a license to sin), but Christ did indeed die for us. It was not... Christ died so as to be some type of generic random sacrifice. He laid down his life for the sheep. Christ specifically went to the cross to die for us so as to redeem us. Christ was not just doing some methodical action. He went to the cross to save our lives specifically and to pay the price for our sins with his death. That is why Christ felt a separation on the cross from the Father (Even though he was never truly separated from the Father). Christ died for mankind's sins. This is why Jesus tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9).

In addition, we also see the substitutionary atonement in the Old Testament, as well.
In the Old Testament, the Israelites' sins were transferred to the head of a goat. This is symbolic of how Christ took on our sin as a substitute so as to pay the price for the world's sin (For he is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world). This was so that God can make available the free gift. A free gift that comes with certain conditions. For one, you have to receive the gift. The gift is received when you repent of your sins and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. From there, you abide with Christ and His righteousness (In order for Christ's death and resurrection to take place in our lives).
 
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Filledwithhope

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#47
I think that hope of being without sin is wonderful. Absolutely! :) However, I also know that we won't be perfect in flesh. It may not be some sin we DO, we can also sin by something we DON'T do yet should do. I don't think we can be totally free from sin on this earth. No matter how hard we try to be perfect... :-( And I have found that when I try to be perfect, I am miserable because I always say something I think wasn't perfect or did something that could be sin. So I will just rely on the blood of Christ to cover me, enjoy the good news and try my best.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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#48
I think that hope of being without sin is wonderful. Absolutely! :) However, I also know that we won't be perfect in flesh. It may not be some sin we DO, we can also sin by something we DON'T do yet should do. I don't think we can be totally free from sin on this earth. No matter how hard we try to be perfect... :-( And I have found that when I try to be perfect, I am miserable because I always say something I think wasn't perfect or did something that could be sin. So I will just rely on the blood of Christ to cover me, enjoy the good news and try my best.
1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Does it sound like they have ceased from sin in 1 Peter 4:1 or not?

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Does it sound like the "they" in Galatians 5:24 have crucified the affections and lusts or not?

Peter identifies certain false prophets who cannot cease (stop) from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

Jesus says we will know false prophets by their fruits.

John says he that does righteousness is righteous.

Jesus says this in Revelation to certain churches,

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write:

These things says He who has the sharp two edged sword: "I know your works
and where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. And you hold fast to My name,
and did not deny My faith... But I have a few things against you, because you
have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a
a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols,
and to commit sexual immorality... Repent or else I will come to you quickly and
will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him
who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him
a white stone, and on the stone a new name which no one knows except him
who receives it." (Revelations 2:12-17) (Pergamos is known as the compromising church).

And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

"These things says the Son of God, who has the eyes like a flame of fire, and His
feet like fine brass: "I know your works, love, service, faith and your patience;
and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a
few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel who calls herself
a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to commit sexual immorality
and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual
immorality and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and
those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent
of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches will know
that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of
you according to your works. " (Revelations 2:18-23) (Thyatira is known as the corrupt church.)
 
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Filledwithhope

Guest
#49
We don't do the obvious sIn as a lifestyle. But are you really sinless? The lord tells you to trust him with something to hear something, do you always? NOBODY can. Not in the flesh. And yes you also DO things sinful no matter how minor. And certainly DONT do all you are asked to.. Sin. Sorry nobody is sinless and perfect. We do it less as we become more Christ like but yet we do sin. And so do you.
 
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psalm6819

Guest
#50
We don't do the obvious sIn as a lifestyle. But are you really sinless? The lord tells you to trust him with something to hear something, do you always? NOBODY can. Not in the flesh. And yes you also DO things sinful no matter how minor. And certainly DONT do all you are asked to.. Sin. Sorry nobody is sinless and perfect. We do it less as we become more Christ like but yet we do sin. And so do you.
you won't get filled with hope on this thread

more like hammered with condemnation
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#51
Dear Skinski:

While I am strongly against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and while I am for being a slave to righteousness versus the wrong flipside of the coin which is being a slave to sin, I do not agree with your view on ignoring the Substitionary Atonement.
The Bible does not say anywhere that the death of Christ served as a substitution for your death. Only theologians say such a thing.

The death of Christ is presented as an example for us which we then follow/partake in also.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Being buried with him by baptism into death (baptism of repentance) is not a substitution. Jesus clearly taught that we have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him. Such a teaching is the very opposite of a substitution.

Our old man is crucified with Him for the express purpose that the service of sin ceases. Paul is speaking of us dying to the world and the lusts thereof via the cross from which we are raised anew unto the service of righteousness through the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost.

The teaching of substitution destroys this concept and replaces it with a POSITIONAL or LEGAL standing set apart from any actual manifest transformation.

Substitution twists the death of Christ into effecting a change in how God views things as opposed to the death of Christ effecting an actual real manifest change in the individual. Think about this point Jason.

The problem between sinners and God is sin. The issue is the rebellion of sinners. The sinner is the offending party and therefore it is the sinner who has to change. GOD DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE.

The substitution deception presents God as the one changing in that He PRETENDS that the sinner is no guilty due to Jesus serving as a guilty substitute. Under the Penal Substitution model (post 1600 CE) a positional transaction is said to take place whereby God PRETENDS that the sinner is righteous and not guilty when the sinner is still manifestly unrighteous and guilty. This teaching has God changing.

Look at what you have written...

The Substitionary Atonement goes into effect when a believer yields their life to Christ whereby the Lord then does the good work within them.
Where does the Bible teach that Jason?

Where does the Bible teach anything about a "substititionary atonement going into effect" ?????????

The Bible says this...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Read that over and over. The death of Christ had NOTHING to do with any kind of legal exchange or legal substitution.

The death of Christ is the MEANS by which we approach God in order to be reconciled, ie. the means by which we may be restored to favour.

Believe what the Book of Hebrews teaches. We approach God via the blood of Christ in a new and living way (the inward approach [ie. repentance and faith] as opposed to outward rote legalism [ie. law keeping]). In approaching God with a TRUE HEART in repentance and faith God is willing to forgive us our PAST crimes once and for all. We are then given a fresh start from which we then grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Due to this fresh start and having been purged of our old sins it is obvious that ongoing rebellion is out of the question.

This is all very simple to understand and the Bible teaches it so very clearly.

Believers who obey the words of Jesus are those of whom Christ died in their place.
Jesus died on your behalf, not in your place. Jesus taught in the Gospels that YOU HAVE TO DIE IN ORDER TO LIVE. The death of Christ is an EXAMPLE for you to follow. Peter knew this...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Does that sound like a substitution to you?

Peter says EXAMPLE. Jesus bore our sins in his own body (He was the sin offering) that WE, being dead to sin (through repentance), should LIVE unto righteousness.

Paul taught the exact same thing...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The service of sin ceases when we die with Christ for we no longer yield our members unto unrighteousness. We instead yield to righteousness.

This substitution message which is preached almost everywhere is a total perversion of the truth. This perversion implants into the minds of ignorant people that reconciliation is premised off the mercy of God via a LEGAL TRANSACTION as opposed being premised off the mercy of God in concordance with a MANIFEST TRANSFORMATION.

Thus a LEGAL TRANSACTION or LEGAL POSITION replaces the reality of the HEART BEING PURIFIED in genuine redemption.


In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus took the cup that had all of mankind's sin in it.
Is that what the Bible teaches? That same cup that Jesus drank of...

Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

STOP buying into the doctrines of deceivers who quote isolated portions of the Bible completely out of their context and fluff it out with worthless rhetoric. Those people are Bible Butchers and they deceive those who do not diligently study the scripture with sincere and honest hearts.

This can also be seen in the story of Joseph whereby Judah was willing to lay down his life for his younger brother for a cup of guilt (that they did not deserve). That is why he had sweat great drops of blood. He took on our sin (That was undeserved). Then from this point Christ was later whipped and beaten after he was captured. This then lines up with what we read in Isaiah 53:5. "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." He who knew no sin was made to be sin for us (2 Corinthians 15:21). I mean, why would Christ bear our sins in his body on the cross if he did not become our substitute? It doesn't make any sense.


Why would Jesus bear our sins? He did it as a SIN OFFERING on our behalf to effect the purchase of the Church through being our kinsman redeemer. Read the book of Ruth and you will see the pattern. The reason Jesus had to die was to put into effect the New Covenant exactly as the Bible states...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Believe the above. The writer of Hebrews lays it out so clearly.

God deals in covenants and God has chosen that the New Covenant is the means by which a sinner may be reconciled back to favour, not via substitution, but via a TRANSFORMATION whereby the ROOT CAUSE of sinning is dealt with. We have to be PURGED of our past sins, we have to have our hearts PURIFIED, whereby we are REDEEMED from all iniquity.

The modern theologians are blind to all this even though it is all right in front of their noses. Instead of defending righteousness, purity of heart, and a clean conscience they defend ongoing wickedness and a sin cloak and then pretend that recognising such humbles them. The truth is that the deceitfulness of sin hardens them unto reprobation because they do not have a love for the truth and the vast majority will never awake to their peril until it is too late at the judgement.

Isaiah 53 does not teach a substitionary atonement. People read such a view into the text. Isaiah 53 prophecies of Jesus suffering on our behalf, of Jesus, in all His innocense, being subjected to the wickedness of the world and being murdered. He gave Himself for us that...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

A redemption from ALL iniquity and being made PURE by which we are zealous for righteousness. Not some forensic position or legal transaction, that is pure nonsense.

You reference 2Cor 5:21 but just like every other Penal Substitution promoter you ignore 2 Cor 6:1 which is the VERY NEXT VERSE.

Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We are "made the righteousness of God in Him" via WORKING TOGETHER WITH GOD.

In other words we ABIDE in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Being made the righteousness of God in Him is the SAME THING as the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. Even Jesus taught it with these words...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus did not teach any Penal Substitution nor did anyone of the other Bible writers. Peter, Paul and Jesus all taught the SAME THING.

The wolves IGNORE Jesus and then TWIST PAUL with this Penal Substitution deception and imply that salvation is wrought via TRUSTING in the FINISHED WORK (a finished legal transaction based on a penal substitution). Then those whom buy into it end up defending ongoing wickedness and ongoing "sinning some more" as they deceive themselves into thinking "Jesus obeyed for them" because "they can't."

Jason, your doctrine is a contradiction. You argue in favour of obedience one moment and then argue in favour of reconciliation being premised off the obedience of Jesus being your substitute. You cannot have it both ways. If Jesus died in your place then that means you don't have to die. A substitute and an example are mutually exclusive.


In other words, if I push one of my buddies out of the way of a moving truck, I am substituting my life for his life. I am dying in his place.

Jesus does not push anyone out of the way of the judgement of God. Jesus preached a message of HEAR and DO and implored people to DO IT AND LIVE. Jesus served as an EXAMPLE of how we are to walk and Jesus also offered Himself on our behalf to put into effect the New Covenant which is the means by which we may have our past sins forgiven once and for all.. That is what the Bible teaches, not moving trust push stories.

That is what it means when Christ lay down his life for us. For Christ became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him.
Who OBEY Him. Those who HEAR AND DO because salvation is a MANIFEST STATE OF WALKING WITH GOD. The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us. In other words we are QUICKENED WITHIN by the very power of God as we are wholehearted yielded to Him having repented and thus forsaken our rebellion to God. Salvation is INTERNAL and is representative of an INTERNAL TRANSFORMATION. Such a transformation can only occur as a result of us yielding with all our being which is why so FEW will be saved.

Jesus is still the author of salvation. It is not us. It is Christ working in us who is our salvation. Yes, we must cooperate with the Lord and yield and surrender to Christ and the work He wants to do in us (According to His Word). But it is God who deserves all the glory, honor, and power (It is never us). We are nothing without Christ. For the light we are to shine is Christ and not ourselves.
Yes, absolutely correct. Read 2 Cor 6:1 in conjunction with 2Cor 5:15-21.

Get this substitution nonsense out of your head and believe...

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


Consider these things Jason.

Go and reads early Church writings. The Penal Substitution model is only 400 years old, it was a further development of the Satisfaction model put forth by Anselm 400 years before that. The early church taught Ransom, Recapitulation, Moral Example, and Christus Victor. They viewed the death of Christ as effecting a PURCHASE of a people who lived unto the EXAMPLE of Jesus Christ, through whom they had victory over the works of the devil in their lives. Their message was "go and sin no more" just like the message of Jesus. They taught about heart purity and walking blameless before God with a clean conscience. Not perfection as in never making a mistake, but perfection in the context of a pure heart whereby we truly loved God and truly loved our neighbour.

It is a simple message and theologians obfuscate it with various deceptions.

HEAR AND DO. No one can go wrong if they will simply hear and do.


God bless.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
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#52
We don't do the obvious sIn as a lifestyle. But are you really sinless? The lord tells you to trust him with something to hear something, do you always? NOBODY can. Not in the flesh. And yes you also DO things sinful no matter how minor. And certainly DONT do all you are asked to.. Sin. Sorry nobody is sinless and perfect. We do it less as we become more Christ like but yet we do sin. And so do you.
Fornication?

Adultery?

Theft?

Lust?

Bitterness?

Are those the kind of sins you are referring to?

Is there any kind of sin that actually ceases?

Doesn't the Bible teach...

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Is it really impossible to take the way of escape every single time?

Is God not faithful to not let us be tempted above that which we can handle?


Do these sins have to stop?

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Fornication, idolatery, adultery, effeminism, homosexuality, theft, covetousness, drunkeness, reviling, extorting. Are you speaking of those sins or do you make an exception there?




The Pearl of Great Price: Two Types of Sin
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
337
24
18
#53
Well I guess I should stick my neck out here. I believe that you can be transformed by the power of God and be restored to a position where you do not sin which is a restoration to the state in which God intended for us, and two humans at the start were in that state, so it's not like it is impossible for man to live without sinning.

I believe this because God did do that for me one day and then I saw it throughout the scriptures. It is what it is all about. A new creation. I walked in that for 18 months but think that what went wrong was that I depended on my flesh for something and that opened up the possibility of sinning. So I fell but still tried to be obedient but the power was gone and of course I would give anything to have gotten it back because it is a lot more than just about not sinning. It is about walking in the light and having the voice of Jesus with you and speaking to you and feeling His presence constantly. There is no way a person will sin if they are feeling that.

It is preferable of course if those who preach it are walking in it, but it is my opinion that it is very hard these days for some reason whereas in the past, it was much more common. I don't think that one must shut up if one is not walking in it because one knows the truth and may be able to give others the hunger and thirst, or rather just confirm it because we are all given that at the start but the faulty teaching in the church says no it is not possible so we just give up.

I did walk in the way that others here have described, that is without willful sin, but then i was transformed to another place where even that ceased. Every thought in my mind was pure. George Fox of the early Quakers described that state as well as have others.
 
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MikkoAinasoja

Senior Member
Nov 19, 2014
683
49
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#54
I have come free from sinning, even though the sin is hanging on in me, but the big difference is, that I do not anymore follow it, and do sin.

If a man have a mind of the flesh, he will join the sin, of his flesh, but if a man have a mind of the Spirit he will resist the sin, and will follow to God, instead the his own temptations, and all kind of false though, which may rise up.

7. Be subject therefore unto God; but resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)

Do not sin anymore, because the sin is for death, but righteous will live forever.
 

Hepzibah

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2015
337
24
18
#55
Also a person who is not walking in it but preaching it, will not have the power from their presence to convict others of their sinfulness. When I was walking in it, I mean the further state, in just speaking to someone they would be overcome with the power of God being present and feeling conviction of sin. Charles Finney reported this that day when he walked through a factory and the girls there were convicted by his presence. He looked at one girl who was mocking him (that comes with it as well) and by that glance she was converted. This is so sadly missing in the church today and is the stuff of real revivals.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
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#56
The Bible does not say anywhere that the death of Christ served as a substitution for your death. Only theologians say such a thing.

The death of Christ is presented as an example for us which we then follow/partake in also.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Being buried with him by baptism into death (baptism of repentance) is not a substitution. Jesus clearly taught that we have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him. Such a teaching is the very opposite of a substitution.

Our old man is crucified with Him for the express purpose that the service of sin ceases. Paul is speaking of us dying to the world and the lusts thereof via the cross from which we are raised anew unto the service of righteousness through the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost.

The teaching of substitution destroys this concept and replaces it with a POSITIONAL or LEGAL standing set apart from any actual manifest transformation.

Substitution twists the death of Christ into effecting a change in how God views things as opposed to the death of Christ effecting an actual real manifest change in the individual. Think about this point Jason.

The problem between sinners and God is sin. The issue is the rebellion of sinners. The sinner is the offending party and therefore it is the sinner who has to change. GOD DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE.

The substitution deception presents God as the one changing in that He PRETENDS that the sinner is no guilty due to Jesus serving as a guilty substitute. Under the Penal Substitution model (post 1600 CE) a positional transaction is said to take place whereby God PRETENDS that the sinner is righteous and not guilty when the sinner is still manifestly unrighteous and guilty. This teaching has God changing.

Look at what you have written...



Where does the Bible teach that Jason?

Where does the Bible teach anything about a "substititionary atonement going into effect" ?????????

The Bible says this...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Read that over and over. The death of Christ had NOTHING to do with any kind of legal exchange or legal substitution.

The death of Christ is the MEANS by which we approach God in order to be reconciled, ie. the means by which we may be restored to favour.

Believe what the Book of Hebrews teaches. We approach God via the blood of Christ in a new and living way (the inward approach [ie. repentance and faith] as opposed to outward rote legalism [ie. law keeping]). In approaching God with a TRUE HEART in repentance and faith God is willing to forgive us our PAST crimes once and for all. We are then given a fresh start from which we then grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Due to this fresh start and having been purged of our old sins it is obvious that ongoing rebellion is out of the question.

This is all very simple to understand and the Bible teaches it so very clearly.

Jesus died on your behalf, not in your place. Jesus taught in the Gospels that YOU HAVE TO DIE IN ORDER TO LIVE. The death of Christ is an EXAMPLE for you to follow. Peter knew this...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Does that sound like a substitution to you?

Peter says EXAMPLE. Jesus bore our sins in his own body (He was the sin offering) that WE, being dead to sin (through repentance), should LIVE unto righteousness.

Paul taught the exact same thing...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The service of sin ceases when we die with Christ for we no longer yield our members unto unrighteousness. We instead yield to righteousness.

This substitution message which is preached almost everywhere is a total perversion of the truth. This perversion implants into the minds of ignorant people that reconciliation is premised off the mercy of God via a LEGAL TRANSACTION as opposed being premised off the mercy of God in concordance with a MANIFEST TRANSFORMATION.

Thus a LEGAL TRANSACTION or LEGAL POSITION replaces the reality of the HEART BEING PURIFIED in genuine redemption.




Is that what the Bible teaches? That same cup that Jesus drank of...

Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

STOP buying into the doctrines of deceivers who quote isolated portions of the Bible completely out of their context and fluff it out with worthless rhetoric. Those people are Bible Butchers and they deceive those who do not diligently study the scripture with sincere and honest hearts.



Why would Jesus bear our sins? He did it as a SIN OFFERING on our behalf to effect the purchase of the Church through being our kinsman redeemer. Read the book of Ruth and you will see the pattern. The reason Jesus had to die was to put into effect the New Covenant exactly as the Bible states...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Believe the above. The writer of Hebrews lays it out so clearly.

God deals in covenants and God has chosen that the New Covenant is the means by which a sinner may be reconciled back to favour, not via substitution, but via a TRANSFORMATION whereby the ROOT CAUSE of sinning is dealt with. We have to be PURGED of our past sins, we have to have our hearts PURIFIED, whereby we are REDEEMED from all iniquity.

The modern theologians are blind to all this even though it is all right in front of their noses. Instead of defending righteousness, purity of heart, and a clean conscience they defend ongoing wickedness and a sin cloak and then pretend that recognising such humbles them. The truth is that the deceitfulness of sin hardens them unto reprobation because they do not have a love for the truth and the vast majority will never awake to their peril until it is too late at the judgement.

Isaiah 53 does not teach a substitionary atonement. People read such a view into the text. Isaiah 53 prophecies of Jesus suffering on our behalf, of Jesus, in all His innocense, being subjected to the wickedness of the world and being murdered. He gave Himself for us that...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

A redemption from ALL iniquity and being made PURE by which we are zealous for righteousness. Not some forensic position or legal transaction, that is pure nonsense.

You reference 2Cor 5:21 but just like every other Penal Substitution promoter you ignore 2 Cor 6:1 which is the VERY NEXT VERSE.

Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We are "made the righteousness of God in Him" via WORKING TOGETHER WITH GOD.

In other words we ABIDE in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Being made the righteousness of God in Him is the SAME THING as the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. Even Jesus taught it with these words...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus did not teach any Penal Substitution nor did anyone of the other Bible writers. Peter, Paul and Jesus all taught the SAME THING.

The wolves IGNORE Jesus and then TWIST PAUL with this Penal Substitution deception and imply that salvation is wrought via TRUSTING in the FINISHED WORK (a finished legal transaction based on a penal substitution). Then those whom buy into it end up defending ongoing wickedness and ongoing "sinning some more" as they deceive themselves into thinking "Jesus obeyed for them" because "they can't."

Jason, your doctrine is a contradiction. You argue in favour of obedience one moment and then argue in favour of reconciliation being premised off the obedience of Jesus being your substitute. You cannot have it both ways. If Jesus died in your place then that means you don't have to die. A substitute and an example are mutually exclusive.



Jesus does not push anyone out of the way of the judgement of God. Jesus preached a message of HEAR and DO and implored people to DO IT AND LIVE. Jesus served as an EXAMPLE of how we are to walk and Jesus also offered Himself on our behalf to put into effect the New Covenant which is the means by which we may have our past sins forgiven once and for all.. That is what the Bible teaches, not moving trust push stories.



Who OBEY Him. Those who HEAR AND DO because salvation is a MANIFEST STATE OF WALKING WITH GOD. The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us. In other words we are QUICKENED WITHIN by the very power of God as we are wholehearted yielded to Him having repented and thus forsaken our rebellion to God. Salvation is INTERNAL and is representative of an INTERNAL TRANSFORMATION. Such a transformation can only occur as a result of us yielding with all our being which is why so FEW will be saved.

Yes, absolutely correct. Read 2 Cor 6:1 in conjunction with 2Cor 5:15-21.

Get this substitution nonsense out of your head and believe...

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


Consider these things Jason.

Go and reads early Church writings. The Penal Substitution model is only 400 years old, it was a further development of the Satisfaction model put forth by Anselm 400 years before that. The early church taught Ransom, Recapitulation, Moral Example, and Christus Victor. They viewed the death of Christ as effecting a PURCHASE of a people who lived unto the EXAMPLE of Jesus Christ, through whom they had victory over the works of the devil in their lives. Their message was "go and sin no more" just like the message of Jesus. They taught about heart purity and walking blameless before God with a clean conscience. Not perfection as in never making a mistake, but perfection in the context of a pure heart whereby we truly loved God and truly loved our neighbour.

It is a simple message and theologians obfuscate it with various deceptions.

HEAR AND DO. No one can go wrong if they will simply hear and do.


God bless.
As I stated before. I am in agreement with us taking action as a part of our faith (otherwise it is a dead faith that cannot access God's saving grace), but I believe it is us yielding to God doing the good work in us. I also believe the Substitionary Atonement ONLY goes into effect when we live out our faith (According to His Word). So I do not believe in any way shape or form like an OSAS proponent who believes their present rebellion or future sin is forgiven them. While I would love to go over the verses you brought forth, I am a little busy today so I will not a chance to address them yet.

May God's love and peace be unto you.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
#57
Nor will it ever...no matter how many times they reject 1st John1:8, Romans, The words of Jesus, Isaiah, and numerous other writers that sought forgiveness for sin....up to and including Daniel, Paul, Peter, the fornicating Corinthian brother, the brothers and sisters in Christ from the Corinthian Church that corrupted the Lord's supper...........people who say they are above sin and or never sin are deceived and the truth is not in them!

Well that passage about those who corrupted the Lord's supper in Corinthians, it clearly says that eternal life was not what they were going to receive. For it says they ate and drank condemnation/damnation to themselves.....No eternal life !!!

1 Corinthians 11:29
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#58
Galatians 5

Freedom in Christ

5 So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
...or to the lusts of the flesh.
 
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Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#59
The Bible does not say anywhere that the death of Christ served as a substitution for your death. Only theologians say such a thing.

The death of Christ is presented as an example for us which we then follow/partake in also.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Being buried with him by baptism into death (baptism of repentance) is not a substitution. Jesus clearly taught that we have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow him. Such a teaching is the very opposite of a substitution.

Our old man is crucified with Him for the express purpose that the service of sin ceases. Paul is speaking of us dying to the world and the lusts thereof via the cross from which we are raised anew unto the service of righteousness through the washing of regeneration of the Holy Ghost.

The teaching of substitution destroys this concept and replaces it with a POSITIONAL or LEGAL standing set apart from any actual manifest transformation.

Substitution twists the death of Christ into effecting a change in how God views things as opposed to the death of Christ effecting an actual real manifest change in the individual. Think about this point Jason.

The problem between sinners and God is sin. The issue is the rebellion of sinners. The sinner is the offending party and therefore it is the sinner who has to change. GOD DOES NOT HAVE TO CHANGE.

The substitution deception presents God as the one changing in that He PRETENDS that the sinner is no guilty due to Jesus serving as a guilty substitute. Under the Penal Substitution model (post 1600 CE) a positional transaction is said to take place whereby God PRETENDS that the sinner is righteous and not guilty when the sinner is still manifestly unrighteous and guilty. This teaching has God changing.

Look at what you have written...



Where does the Bible teach that Jason?

Where does the Bible teach anything about a "substititionary atonement going into effect" ?????????

The Bible says this...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Read that over and over. The death of Christ had NOTHING to do with any kind of legal exchange or legal substitution.

The death of Christ is the MEANS by which we approach God in order to be reconciled, ie. the means by which we may be restored to favour.

Believe what the Book of Hebrews teaches. We approach God via the blood of Christ in a new and living way (the inward approach [ie. repentance and faith] as opposed to outward rote legalism [ie. law keeping]). In approaching God with a TRUE HEART in repentance and faith God is willing to forgive us our PAST crimes once and for all. We are then given a fresh start from which we then grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Due to this fresh start and having been purged of our old sins it is obvious that ongoing rebellion is out of the question.

This is all very simple to understand and the Bible teaches it so very clearly.

Jesus died on your behalf, not in your place. Jesus taught in the Gospels that YOU HAVE TO DIE IN ORDER TO LIVE. The death of Christ is an EXAMPLE for you to follow. Peter knew this...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Does that sound like a substitution to you?

Peter says EXAMPLE. Jesus bore our sins in his own body (He was the sin offering) that WE, being dead to sin (through repentance), should LIVE unto righteousness.

Paul taught the exact same thing...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The service of sin ceases when we die with Christ for we no longer yield our members unto unrighteousness. We instead yield to righteousness.

This substitution message which is preached almost everywhere is a total perversion of the truth. This perversion implants into the minds of ignorant people that reconciliation is premised off the mercy of God via a LEGAL TRANSACTION as opposed being premised off the mercy of God in concordance with a MANIFEST TRANSFORMATION.

Thus a LEGAL TRANSACTION or LEGAL POSITION replaces the reality of the HEART BEING PURIFIED in genuine redemption.




Is that what the Bible teaches? That same cup that Jesus drank of...

Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.

STOP buying into the doctrines of deceivers who quote isolated portions of the Bible completely out of their context and fluff it out with worthless rhetoric. Those people are Bible Butchers and they deceive those who do not diligently study the scripture with sincere and honest hearts.



Why would Jesus bear our sins? He did it as a SIN OFFERING on our behalf to effect the purchase of the Church through being our kinsman redeemer. Read the book of Ruth and you will see the pattern. The reason Jesus had to die was to put into effect the New Covenant exactly as the Bible states...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Believe the above. The writer of Hebrews lays it out so clearly.

God deals in covenants and God has chosen that the New Covenant is the means by which a sinner may be reconciled back to favour, not via substitution, but via a TRANSFORMATION whereby the ROOT CAUSE of sinning is dealt with. We have to be PURGED of our past sins, we have to have our hearts PURIFIED, whereby we are REDEEMED from all iniquity.

The modern theologians are blind to all this even though it is all right in front of their noses. Instead of defending righteousness, purity of heart, and a clean conscience they defend ongoing wickedness and a sin cloak and then pretend that recognising such humbles them. The truth is that the deceitfulness of sin hardens them unto reprobation because they do not have a love for the truth and the vast majority will never awake to their peril until it is too late at the judgement.

Isaiah 53 does not teach a substitionary atonement. People read such a view into the text. Isaiah 53 prophecies of Jesus suffering on our behalf, of Jesus, in all His innocense, being subjected to the wickedness of the world and being murdered. He gave Himself for us that...

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

A redemption from ALL iniquity and being made PURE by which we are zealous for righteousness. Not some forensic position or legal transaction, that is pure nonsense.

You reference 2Cor 5:21 but just like every other Penal Substitution promoter you ignore 2 Cor 6:1 which is the VERY NEXT VERSE.

Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We are "made the righteousness of God in Him" via WORKING TOGETHER WITH GOD.

In other words we ABIDE in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Being made the righteousness of God in Him is the SAME THING as the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us through the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. Even Jesus taught it with these words...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Jesus did not teach any Penal Substitution nor did anyone of the other Bible writers. Peter, Paul and Jesus all taught the SAME THING.

The wolves IGNORE Jesus and then TWIST PAUL with this Penal Substitution deception and imply that salvation is wrought via TRUSTING in the FINISHED WORK (a finished legal transaction based on a penal substitution). Then those whom buy into it end up defending ongoing wickedness and ongoing "sinning some more" as they deceive themselves into thinking "Jesus obeyed for them" because "they can't."

Jason, your doctrine is a contradiction. You argue in favour of obedience one moment and then argue in favour of reconciliation being premised off the obedience of Jesus being your substitute. You cannot have it both ways. If Jesus died in your place then that means you don't have to die. A substitute and an example are mutually exclusive.



Jesus does not push anyone out of the way of the judgement of God. Jesus preached a message of HEAR and DO and implored people to DO IT AND LIVE. Jesus served as an EXAMPLE of how we are to walk and Jesus also offered Himself on our behalf to put into effect the New Covenant which is the means by which we may have our past sins forgiven once and for all.. That is what the Bible teaches, not moving trust push stories.



Who OBEY Him. Those who HEAR AND DO because salvation is a MANIFEST STATE OF WALKING WITH GOD. The Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled IN us. In other words we are QUICKENED WITHIN by the very power of God as we are wholehearted yielded to Him having repented and thus forsaken our rebellion to God. Salvation is INTERNAL and is representative of an INTERNAL TRANSFORMATION. Such a transformation can only occur as a result of us yielding with all our being which is why so FEW will be saved.

Yes, absolutely correct. Read 2 Cor 6:1 in conjunction with 2Cor 5:15-21.

Get this substitution nonsense out of your head and believe...

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.


Consider these things Jason.

Go and reads early Church writings. The Penal Substitution model is only 400 years old, it was a further development of the Satisfaction model put forth by Anselm 400 years before that. The early church taught Ransom, Recapitulation, Moral Example, and Christus Victor. They viewed the death of Christ as effecting a PURCHASE of a people who lived unto the EXAMPLE of Jesus Christ, through whom they had victory over the works of the devil in their lives. Their message was "go and sin no more" just like the message of Jesus. They taught about heart purity and walking blameless before God with a clean conscience. Not perfection as in never making a mistake, but perfection in the context of a pure heart whereby we truly loved God and truly loved our neighbour.

It is a simple message and theologians obfuscate it with various deceptions.

HEAR AND DO. No one can go wrong if they will simply hear and do.


God bless.
Also, think of the Substitutionary Atonement as an exchange of something. For example, if we we were in a coffee shop together talking and you went to the bathroom and I switched out your coffee for my vanilla latte, then I am substituting one drink for another. For if Jesus did not die for my sins, then whose sins did he die for? He was my substitute. My exchange. He was punished because of my sins. If Adam did not sin, then Jesus would not have to go to the cross and pay the price for mankind's sins. It was an exchange. A substitute. Do you understand that concept?
 
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I cannot be forgiven when I first came to Christ if He died for someone else's sins and not my sins. Jesus died so as to save me. He bore our sins within his body. Why would he do that?

Do you deny that the Lord bought you and purchased you with his blood?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28).
 
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