Galatian Conundrums

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Guojing

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you have never even read Isaiah, have you?
I knew this was coming. This shows you are reading Paul into Isaiah.

Isaiah foresaw a messiah that will bear the sins of the world but he did not see a cross, neither did he see it as a victory. It was a series of visions that the Holy Spirit revealed to him and he wrote it down. To say he “look forward to the cross” is reading into it.

cruxifixction was a Roman invention that came in much later.
 

Guojing

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why did Adam change the woman's name?
why did Abraham tell Isaac that the Lord will provide a lamb?
do you think not even Zechariah understood what he himself prophesied?
No one can stop you from reading into the Bible if you desire. Understand the concept of progressive revelation.
 

Grandpa

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why did Adam change the woman's name?
why did Abraham tell Isaac that the Lord will provide a lamb?
do you think not even Zechariah understood what he himself prophesied?
What about Balaam when Balak asked him to curse Israel? (Numbers 24)
 

Guojing

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What about Balaam when Balak asked him to curse Israel? (Numbers 24)
He saw them camped in a shape that is the form of a cross.

How do you get from there to believe that “he saw the son of God dying on the cross to save all from their sins” without imposing your own understanding from hindsight?
 

Grandpa

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He saw them camped in a shape that is the form of a cross.

How do you get from there to believe that “he saw the son of God dying on the cross to save all from their sins” without imposing your own understanding from hindsight?
I don't know everything he saw.

And I don't know exactly what impact it had on him.

I just know that he saw the cross and he said some pretty prophetic things about the Lord afterward.


That no one would understand without hindsight. Unless they were prophets too. And I don't know exactly how much understanding prophets are given, in advance...

I just think that Balaam seeing the cross was no coincidence. What was he shown by God? We don't know.
 

Guojing

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I don't know everything he saw.

And I don't know exactly what impact it had on him.

I just know that he saw the cross and he said some pretty prophetic things about the Lord afterward.


That no one would understand without hindsight. Unless they were prophets too. And I don't know exactly how much understanding prophets are given, in advance...

I just think that Balaam seeing the cross was no coincidence. What was he shown by God? We don't know.
He also told Balak how to win, he needs to get the Jews to give up their covenant willingly. That is where balak got the idea of using gentile ladies to seduce the Jews so that they worship other gods.

But to conclude our point, a simple rule I follow is “be silent when the scripture is silent”. Otherwise anyone can say anything thru allegory.
 

Grandpa

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He also told Balak how to win, he needs to get the Jews to give up their covenant willingly. That is where balak got the idea of using gentile ladies to seduce the Jews so that they worship other gods.

But to conclude our point, a simple rule I follow is “be silent when the scripture is silent”. Otherwise anyone can say anything thru allegory.
The scripture isn't exactly silent.

It just leaves a lot open to interpretation.

Numbers 24:15-16
15 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:

16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:

How much of it does he tell to Balak? Certainly not all of it. We don't know because we don't know how much was revealed to Balaam.

So I guess in that way you are right. The scripture is silent in that regard.
 

Guojing

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The scripture isn't exactly silent.

It just leaves a lot open to interpretation.

Numbers 24:15-16
15 And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:

16 He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:

How much of it does he tell to Balak? Certainly not all of it. We don't know because we don't know how much was revealed to Balaam.

So I guess in that way you are right. The scripture is silent in that regard.
To me, it made perfect sense for the secret of the cross to be a mystery before it happened. Paul himself wrote in 1 Cor 2:8

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Satan could understand the same secret before it happened, he would never have entered Judas and set the plan in motion for the crucifixion.

I like to think that when he saw the veil of the temple being torn down, he never thought that what he thought of as his greatest victory, turned out to be his greatest defeat. :)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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After the cross happen and after Paul was told all these mysteries by the ascended Christ, yes one can look back and see the grand plan of God.

No one is denying that.

But that is not the same as “people were looking forward to the cross in the ot”. Many of them were instead looking forward to the promised kingdom and king
1 Peter1:11 informs us they looked ahead to the suffering of Christ beforehand receiving the end of their salvation by the same spirit of faith, Christ in us. . . we can look back to the same suffering receiving the end of our salvation .

The many that did look for the kingdom coming by observation are still waiting for the first time. They deny the father and the Son called antichrists.
 

Guojing

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1 Peter1:11 informs us they looked ahead to the suffering of Christ beforehand receiving the end of their salvation by the same spirit of faith, Christ in us. . . we can look back to the same suffering receiving the end of our salvation .

The many that did look for the kingdom coming by observation are still waiting for the first time. They deny the father and the Son called antichrists.
Yes, they might have read in Isaiah that their promised Messiah would suffer.

That is a long way from concluding they "saw that he will die on the cross to free them from sin".
 

PS

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I think when the bible says from the foundation of the world it is insinuating that was Gods Plan from the very start.

Not that the Lord Jesus was physically slain then.
I would't dispute that for the Old Testament, but there are two things, firstly I should have added it came from the Bible commentator Clarke, and the second thing is that according to Hebrew time reckoning we are now in the 6th millennium. The Hebrew year count starts in year 3761 BCE, which the 12th-century Jewish philosopher Maimonides established as the biblical date of Creation.

https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/jewish-calendar.html

So for the Jews and consequently the Old Testament, the foundation of the earth was less than 6000 years ago. Good luck with that. We Christians make our own assumptions probably thinking the Biblical foundation of the earth was billions of years ago and may equally be in error?

Regarding the Christian era, I am content in the knowledge it began with the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and those whose names appear in the Lambs Book of Life are those who believe in Him.

Furthermore, I am coming round to the view that it is elementary errors like these that lead to errors in Judaism, JWs, Calvinism and the Young Earth people. Just my view, and others are entitled to their opinion.
 

posthuman

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I knew this was coming. This shows you are reading Paul into Isaiah.

Isaiah foresaw a messiah that will bear the sins of the world but he did not see a cross, neither did he see it as a victory. It was a series of visions that the Holy Spirit revealed to him and he wrote it down. To say he “look forward to the cross” is reading into it.

cruxifixction was a Roman invention that came in much later.
LOL
apparently if no one specifically prophesied of a cross then all God's revelation through His prophets is nullified.

rich :LOL:
 

Guojing

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LOL
apparently if no one specifically prophesied of a cross then all God's revelation through His prophets is nullified.


rich :LOL:
The way you twist people's words is indeed a hallmark of one who is trolling.
 

posthuman

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Acts 2:23-33 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. For David says concerning Him: [' I foresaw the LORD always before my face,] [For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.] [Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;] [Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.] [For You will not leave my soul in Hades,] [Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see] [corruption.] [You have made known to me the ways of life;] [You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'] "Men [and] brethren, let [me] speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

David knew the Messiah would die and be raised.
 

Grandpa

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To me, it made perfect sense for the secret of the cross to be a mystery before it happened. Paul himself wrote in 1 Cor 2:8

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If Satan could understand the same secret before it happened, he would never have entered Judas and set the plan in motion for the crucifixion.

I like to think that when he saw the veil of the temple being torn down, he never thought that what he thought of as his greatest victory, turned out to be his greatest defeat. :)
I think the means of Christs death was a mystery. Maybe. Definitely a mystery to most people.

But all the rest was in the bible. The Lord Jesus showed people when He resurrected that it was written about Him.


I don't think it was written in a real obvious manner. Like being able to understand the rest of the bible I believe it would have taken faith and a Revelation of Christ in order to see it.
 

Guojing

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I think the means of Christs death was a mystery. Maybe. Definitely a mystery to most people.

But all the rest was in the bible. The Lord Jesus showed people when He resurrected that it was written about Him.


I don't think it was written in a real obvious manner. Like being able to understand the rest of the bible I believe it would have taken faith and a Revelation of Christ in order to see it.
I am not saying that the Messiah's death itself is a mystery. Satan probably thought that, "If Jesus is the promised Messiah and he will usher the Jews into the Kingdom of God, surely tempting the Jews to reject him and put him to death, would ruin that plan completely."

What I am saying is that the divine plan, how Christ death on the cross, became the means in which both Jews and Gentiles can be permanently reconciled with God, is a mystery.

Well I understand why it may be hard for some of us to see why it was a mystery in the OT because we grew up way after that event.

Its like asking a fish, what water is.
 

posthuman

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Understand the concept of progressive revelation.
I started learning German through a rosetta stone course last week.

I know very little German. Right now, all the lessons are very simple, without great detail, not technical and not in-depth.

Later as I 'progress' I will have much more complex lessons rich and nuanced and full of very specific information.

Right now am I learning German or am I learning a completely different language, since I don't yet know all possible details?

Maybe you - or, I should say, Scofield - is the one who doesn't really understand 'progressive revelation'
 

posthuman

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Its like asking a fish, what water is.
A fish who doesn't understand where he is and a fish who does are in the same ocean. The ocean doesn't change according to whether any fish comprehends it or not.

Why does the sun set, and then rise again?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Yes, they might have read in Isaiah that their promised Messiah would suffer.

That is a long way from concluding they "saw that he will die on the cross to free them from sin".
If you are searching form the words die on the cross verbatim .its not their .he used two witnesses as a demonstration of the promise in Isaiah 53..

The cross is one example used a demonstration of Isaiah 53.. The garden where he suffered unto death as the father poured out the wrath being strengthened by the father to finish that. It was before the other demonstration of the cross .

Three day in the belly of the whale called hell a living sacrifice of suffering.. In the new testament it is referred to the three days in heart of the earth to represent that living sacrifice

Luke 22:43-45 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

In the parable above the scripture uses sweat to show the work of the father and Son working as one. As if drops of blood reprtesent the unseen work of jeus pouring out his spirit life in jeapordy of His own spirit . The father put the disciples alseep to undaicate he was not supported by sinful men . When he was finished it was wake up time for them . The cross aids to the demonstration of the lamb of God who was slain from the foundation. The six day he did work resting on the 7th from all the work required. He nailed it
two witnesses. . the garden and the cross together they . . testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, as the glory that did follow.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:9- 11