"God loves everyone" - false

[Lion222]

It seems that I have read in one of your posts that you believe in keeping scripture verses in context. That said, in order to keep 2 Pet 3:9 in context, we have to go back to the first verse in chapter 1, where it says Peter is talking to "them that have obtained like precious faith". Peter even includes himself in his warning to them, by using the word "us-ward". telling them that God is not willing that any of them (that have obtained like precious faith) should perish (perish = death= separation from fellowship with God), but that all (with like precious faith) should come to repentance (because God will not fellowship with sin).

After we have been born again, we still carry the baggage of our sinful nature, and have a warfare within us of our fleshly nature against our new spiritual nature, as Paul explains in Romans 7:23. Many times we lose the battle to the desires of our fleshly nature, which requires us to have to repent to regain our fellowship with God.

So the elect perish in your thinking?

The believers who have repentant from dead works and put their faith in Christ
They need to come to repentance or perish?

How is that?

No the context is the direct context
That Jesus return seems to be taking a long time.
The reason it is taking a long time is because His desire is for everyone to come to repentance.
For more to come and not perish

 

[awelight]

So the elect perish in your thinking?

The believers who have repentant from dead works and put their faith in Christ
They need to come to repentance or perish?

How is that?

No the context is the direct context
That Jesus return seems to be taking a long time.
The reason it is taking a long time is because His desire is for everyone to come to repentance.
For more to come and not perish

It would seem you are wrestling with age old questions and if you have an open mind and can discern spiritual things, this is a good thing. Stay prayerful and study, for if the Spirit dwell in you, He will lead you into all Truth.

Many have wrestled with these questions:

1) How can God demand from man that which he is not capable of doing?
2) Is God unfair in electing some to salvation while passing by others?
3) What must God do in order that man accomplish what God demands of all?
4) Did Christ die for everyone?
5) If Christ died for everyone, then why is He going to fail in his purpose?
6) Or should it be understood that Christ did not die for everyone, so will succeed without fail to accomplish His purpose?

 

[awelight]

What things ? Does it look like these believers ( same ones from chapter 2 ) in chapter 3 understand?
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, NEITHER YE NOW ARE YE ABLE

Even you should admit, to take the general truths of CH. 2 that I was quoting, and stretch that all the way to the Corinthian situation of the carnal mind, is a bit much.

 

[awelight]

God loves his creation, as in an architect who has designed a building, and sees it standing in all its splendour. If the new owners neglect it, dont paint it etc, and it becomes a decrepit ruin, then of course we see no value in it and it will be cursed for eternity.

Yes, I agree. To many of the free will sect, that wave around John 3:16, as if it is the answer to everything in Scripture, cannot place their minds in the eternal gear of thinking, in order that they may see the deep things of God. Keeping ones mind in the temporal plane, will only lead to further confusion and misunderstanding of God's purpose. Just as I have pointed out in other posts, that in John 3:16, the word translated "LOVE" in the Greek, is an Aorist Active Indicative Verb. The Aorist tense points to "PAST" action. Therefore, "God LOVED the world", but is not "loving" the world, this would take a Present tense verb, which is not used here.

This then, goes directly to your point. God "loved" the world, as He originally planed it.... upright and without sin. But it fell into ruin and God knowing that it would, Decreed from all eternity the entire plan of Redemption. God will restore all of creation, that was ruined in the fall. It is ridiculous and quite frankly tiresome, to have to defend such a simple point of understanding. God does not presently love the world that is riddled with SIN. He cannot, His Holy nature will not permit it.

Perhaps what is truly amazing, is that God continues to sustain this world and it's people, rather than just letting it desolve it nothingness. But thank God, He decreed not to do that.

 

[throughfaith]

Even you should admit, to take the general truths of CH. 2 that I was quoting, and stretch that all the way to the Corinthian situation of the carnal mind, is a bit much.

The whole context is about the carnal behaviour of the Church . And about the issues of following the worlds wisdom .

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You ignore everything that challenges your Idolology.
For you Jesus only partially defeated sin and death.
Why He defeated it was for those who would believe, Yes.

But it was defeated for all as a result.
He opened the door to all who would.

That is why.
Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Rev 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

The thirst of man and the desire of man causes him to respond to the call.
That part of man that was made for and intended for God and Created by God still exists and is dying of thirst for God though he fill it with all kinds of sin. They are all broken cisterns that have no such water to satisfy the soul of man.

The Spirit and the Bride and those who hear all call them to come and have their thirst and desire satisfied fully and freely.

But the elect are elect right there is no need for anyone to call them to choose and turn their desire to Christ to fulfill that thirst.
Not if you believe as you do, their choice their repentance is forced on them, the love of God is forced on them against their will.
Much like being raped.

It is such a disgusting idolology, maligning the character of God

His grace is so good it is hard to resist, Yes. Still most of the world will resist it because it is their choice, they love their sin and choose the darkness even when shown the light and called to come.

The scriptures say taste and see, the Lord is Good.
God has provided everything come and find out for yourself.

Yes, God may choose you knocking your dumb ass off your horse and making you blind, calling you out like a foolish child and making you wise to who He really is!
But you still must choose to go against your way and go His way if you want to not be a blind fool.
But that is what many do after seeing the light they choose to close their eyes and be blind to it.

But God knows who would respond to such a blow and choose Him freely once they know the truth of their blindness.
He does not go to such extremes with those who would not or everyone would be going around physically blinded to match there spiritual blindness.

Respectfully, the same applies to you about ignoring scriptures. The stony heart of the natural man cannot "taste and see" the things of the Spirit, "choose to go against his way and go God's spiritual way", "see a spiritual light" "know the truth of their spiritual blindness",

Only the heart that has been changed in regeneration to a "fleshy" heart that has a spiritual conscience that can be pricked, will respond to spiritual things like, "hear", "believe", "come", "repent of breaking a spiritual law", "understand spiritual things", "see a spiritual light", "know the truth of their spiritual blindness", etc.

Yes God knows everything, even knows "who would respond to such a blow". Psalms 53, Every one of them is gone back, they are altogether become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

All scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine of Christ.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So the elect perish in your thinking?

The believers who have repentant from dead works and put their faith in Christ
They need to come to repentance or perish?

How is that?

No the context is the direct context
That Jesus return seems to be taking a long time.
The reason it is taking a long time is because His desire is for everyone to come to repentance.
For more to come and not perish

With your denial of this scriptures meaning puts you in a state of not being able to harmonize the scriptures according to your interpretation of them.

Repentance of breaking a spiritual law only comes from those who have been born spiritually, and can discern spiritual things.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

So the elect perish in your thinking?

The believers who have repentant from dead works and put their faith in Christ
They need to come to repentance or perish?

How is that?

No the context is the direct context
That Jesus return seems to be taking a long time.
The reason it is taking a long time is because His desire is for everyone to come to repentance.
For more to come and not perish

Perish, according to Greek means=death. death, according to Greek means=a separation. Perish in this scripture denotes "a separation from fellowship with God, because God cannot fellowship sin. Interpreted any other way will not harmonize with the other scriptures.

 

[awelight]

The whole context is about the carnal behaviour of the Church . And about the issues of following the worlds wisdom .

This is somewhat tiresome but here is the reply, if not for you but then others.

1Co 2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: (or mature), yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: (This portion of Scripture, is for the believers mature enough, spiritually speaking, to receive it. Mat. 5:48)

1Cor 2:7-8 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: (In God's foreordination, He planned every aspect of redemption before anything was created. In the immediate context, whom Christ was. It was not discernible by the rulers of this world,)

1Cor 2:9-10 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him. But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (These things could not be obtained through natural means, v.9, These things were prepared by God for the ones that love Him. An obvious and particular group.)

1Cor 2:11-16 For who among men are knowing the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none are knowing, except by the Spirit of God. But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us from God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom is teaching, but that which the Spirit teaching; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual is discerning all things, and he himself is discerned by no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Note here Paul's inclusion among the matters he is discussing: The pronoun "WE" used six times. The pronoun "US" twice.

In Chapter 3, Paul makes a clear break as to whom he is now talking too. He moves from himself and mature believers, to the babes in Christ.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as ones who are spiritual, (The ones above, in Ch.2) but as ones who are carnal, as unto babes in Christ. (This is a clear break. Note: Paul uses no inclusive pronouns as he makes this division, between mature and immature.)

Now the question is: Will you now except the obvious teaching here? I make no claims, just except what the text clearly says.

 

[throughfaith]

This is somewhat tiresome but here is the reply, if not for you but then others.

1Co 2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: (or mature), yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought: (This portion of Scripture, is for the believers mature enough, spiritually speaking, to receive it. Mat. 5:48)

1Cor 2:7-8 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: (In God's foreordination, He planned every aspect of redemption before anything was created. In the immediate context, whom Christ was. It was not discernible by the rulers of this world,)

1Cor 2:9-10 but as it is written, Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him. But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (These things could not be obtained through natural means, v.9, These things were prepared by God for the ones that love Him. An obvious and particular group.)

1Cor 2:11-16 For who among men are knowing the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none are knowing, except by the Spirit of God. But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us from God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom is teaching, but that which the Spirit teaching; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual is discerning all things, and he himself is discerned by no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Note here Paul's inclusion among the matters he is discussing: The pronoun "WE" used six times. The pronoun "US" twice.

In Chapter 3, Paul makes a clear break as to whom he is now talking too. He moves from himself and mature believers, to the babes in Christ.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as ones who are spiritual, (The ones above, in Ch.2) but as ones who are carnal, as unto babes in Christ. (This is a clear break. Note: Paul uses no inclusive pronouns as he makes this division, between mature and immature.)

Now the question is: Will you now except the obvious teaching here? I make no claims, just except what the text clearly says.

1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,( Mature , the same ones in chapter 2 verse 6 but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were NOT ABLE !! to bear it, neither yet now are YE ABLE !!!
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
its the same point in Hebrews 5
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The issue is on the trigger word ' Natural ' . But no where is ' Natural ' used towards a lost sinner else where . Natural is not negative.
rom 1 .26
26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change THE NATURAL use into that which is against NATURE :
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without ((natural ))affection, implacable, unmerciful:
now check the greek for ' NATURAL ' and CARNAL they both basically mean the same ( fleshy ) Which is Paul is addressing.

 

[awelight]

1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,( Mature , the same ones in chapter 2 verse 6 but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were NOT ABLE !! to bear it, neither yet now are YE ABLE !!!
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
its the same point in Hebrews 5
11Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12¶For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The issue is on the trigger word ' Natural ' . But no where is ' Natural ' used towards a lost sinner else where . Natural is not negative.
rom 1 .26
26¶For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change THE NATURAL use into that which is against NATURE :
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without ((natural ))affection, implacable, unmerciful:
now check the greek for ' NATURAL ' and CARNAL they both basically mean the same ( fleshy ) Which is Paul is addressing.

You obviously read nothing In the post. As usual, you drone on about things that are not even relevant to the post. I am well aware of the problems in the Corinthian church. I give up!!!!!! The discussion is pointless with you.

 

[Gregoryp]

Yes, I agree. To many of the free will sect, that wave around John 3:16, as if it is the answer to everything in Scripture, cannot place their minds in the eternal gear of thinking, in order that they may see the deep things of God. Keeping ones mind in the temporal plane, will only lead to further confusion and misunderstanding of God's purpose. Just as I have pointed out in other posts, that in John 3:16, the word translated "LOVE" in the Greek, is an Aorist Active Indicative Verb. The Aorist tense points to "PAST" action. Therefore, "God LOVED the world", but is not "loving" the world, this would take a Present tense verb, which is not used here.

This then, goes directly to your point. God "loved" the world, as He originally planed it.... upright and without sin. But it fell into ruin and God knowing that it would, Decreed from all eternity the entire plan of Redemption. God will restore all of creation, that was ruined in the fall. It is ridiculous and quite frankly tiresome, to have to defend such a simple point of understanding. God does not presently love the world that is riddled with SIN. He cannot, His Holy nature will not permit it.

Perhaps what is truly amazing, is that God continues to sustain this world and it's people, rather than just letting it desolve it nothingness. But thank God, He decreed not to do that.

I have spoken to God many times about that situation, giving up on the world and starting over. He declared it simply wasn't an option, as you dont discard all of the fruit of the vine, just because some fruit is sour , bruised etc. You harvest the good fruit and discard the rest. He didnt plant the vine to destroy the whole vineyard.

 

[throughfaith]

You obviously read nothing In the post. As usual, you drone on about things that are not even relevant to the post. I am well aware of the problems in the Corinthian church. I give up!!!!!! The discussion is pointless with you.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is saved ? no . But he that is born again? no . but he that was chosen before the found ..?.no but he that is spiritual( mature ) judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. Then guess what ? yes that s right chapter divisions are not part of the original and they are not inspired.
1¶And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual( there it is again' MATURE ' ) , but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

 

[throughfaith]

Even you should admit, to take the general truths of CH. 2 that I was quoting, and stretch that all the way to the Corinthian situation of the carnal mind, is a bit much.

Paul does not break from the point with a non sequitur all of a sudden to teach about a lost man that cannot believe the Gospel. Paul is addressing belivers ( , saints, saved people ) . Paul is talking about why these fleshy ,carnal natuarl belivers are struggling with the meat ,the deeper understanding, the deeper wisdom and the things Paul can speak ( verse 6 ) among the ' Spiritual ' ( mature) . The contrast is spiritual v Mature . Not a lost v saved man . The issue Paul is dealing with is saved fleshy believers who are UNABLE to understand the further things ,the wisdom Paul does speak amoung the mature .

 

[MonicaLara]

2nd Peter 3:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God loves everyone but he is also just!

 

[awelight]

Paul does not break from the point with a non sequitur all of a sudden to teach about a lost man that cannot believe the Gospel. Paul is addressing belivers ( , saints, saved people ) . Paul is talking about why these fleshy ,carnal natuarl belivers are struggling with the meat ,the deeper understanding, the deeper wisdom and the things Paul can speak ( verse 6 ) among the ' Spiritual ' ( mature) . the deeper wisdom and the things Paul can speak ( verse 6 ) among the ' Spiritual ' ( mature) .The contrast is spiritual v Mature . Not a lost v saved man . The issue Paul is dealing with is saved fleshy believers who are UNABLE to understand the further things ,the wisdom Paul does speak amoung the mature .

Now you have reversed your position that you claimed in previous posts.

Previously you said, "The whole context is about the carnal behavior of the Church"
Now you say, " the deeper wisdom and the things Paul can speak ( verse 6 ) among the ' Spiritual ' ( mature) ." This now agrees with me.

You said, " The contrast is spiritual v Mature . Not a lost v saved man ."

No it is not spiritual v Mature. It is spiritual maturity vs. spiritual immaturity. (While leaving the door open to the fact that all of the Corinthian, carnal minded individuals, may have not been saved.)

As far as whether these verses have meaning about lost person vs. saved, I let only the text speak.

1Co 2:12-14 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom is teaching, but which the Spirit is teaching; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Surly, you are not implying that a "natural" man is an immature spiritual believer? He is an unbeliever, is he not?

 

[awelight]

I have spoken to God many times about that situation, giving up on the world and starting over. He declared it simply wasn't an option, as you dont discard all of the fruit of the vine, just because some fruit is sour , bruised etc. You harvest the good fruit and discard the rest. He didnt plant the vine to destroy the whole vineyard.

I am not sure what you mean, when you said, "I have spoken to God many times about that situation, giving up on the world and starting over. He declared it simply wasn't an option,....."?

Do you mean as in prayer, you audibly heard from God? Or that in prayer, God helped you put Scripture together?

 

[throughfaith]

Now you have reversed your position that you claimed in previous posts.

Previously you said, "The whole context is about the carnal behavior of the Church"
Now you say, " the deeper wisdom and the things Paul can speak ( verse 6 ) among the ' Spiritual ' ( mature) ." This now agrees with me.

You said, " The contrast is spiritual v Mature . Not a lost v saved man ."

No it is not spiritual v Mature. It is spiritual maturity vs. spiritual immaturity. (While leaving the door open to the fact that all of the Corinthian, carnal minded individuals, may have not been saved.)

As far as whether these verses have meaning about lost person vs. saved, I let only the text speak.

1Co 2:12-14 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom is teaching, but which the Spirit is teaching; combining spiritual things with spiritual words. Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Surly, you are not implying that a "natural" man is an immature spiritual believer? He is an unbeliever, is he not?

_//Surly, you are not implying that a "natural" man is an immature spiritual believer? He is an unbeliever, is he not?/// Again . The natural man is a immature believer . The " Spiritual ' is not a new ager . its a mature believer ( verse 6 )
Saying ' immature, spiritual believer would be a contradiction. Immature is one thing . ' spiritual does not mean in this context ' someone with the Holy Spirit, inspite of some faulty translations and commentary s

 

[awelight]

_//Surly, you are not implying that a "natural" man is an immature spiritual believer? He is an unbeliever, is he not?/// Again . The natural man is a immature believer . The " Spiritual ' is not a new ager . its a mature believer ( verse 6 )
Saying ' immature, spiritual believer would be a contradiction. Immature is one thing . ' spiritual does not mean in this context ' someone with the Holy Spirit, inspite of some faulty translations and commentary s

You have no idea what you are talking about!

The Greek word translated "natural", is NEVER used in a way to mean an immature believer! It always means, an unregenerate, unbelieving, unsaved person of the world. When used in the context of salvation. It is used 12 times in the KJV version and NASB of the NT.

In these verses "natural" is used to mean going against the nature of a person:

Rom_1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom_1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom_1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

In the following verses, it is used to distinguish the presently lost or the forever lost:

Rom_11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
Rom_11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
1Cor_2:14 Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

These verses, two types of bodies:

1Cor_15:44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor_15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.

 

[throughfaith]

You have no idea what you are talking about!

The Greek word translated "natural", is NEVER used in a way to mean an immature believer! It always means, an unregenerate, unbelieving, unsaved person of the world. When used in the context of salvation. It is used 12 times in the KJV version and NASB of the NT.

In these verses "natural" is used to mean going against the nature of a person:

Rom_1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom_1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom_1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

In the following verses, it is used to distinguish the presently lost or the forever lost:

Rom_11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
Rom_11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
1Cor_2:14 Now the natural man is not receiving the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No it means the exact opposite of what your saying in Roman s. they left the natural use for something bad . So if they followed the 'natural 'use ( in this context, its women with women and men with men . Bad . ) natural = good . You've failed dramatically to demonstrate the term 'natural 'is unregenerate man . What's really going on is sermon after sermon , preacher after preacher, teacher after teacher has saturated everyone's mind with this calvinist buzz / catchphrase its become the number one quoted verse ,completely missing the whole context of the chapters 2and 3 .