"God loves everyone" - false

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awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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well the verse in context is from Peter and it says
God does not wish for anyone to perish but that all would come to repentance.

So are you saying the believers will perish, if they do not repent (and believe). Since you say it is only applies to those who have been regenerated?


ForestGreenCook said, "God does not want all of mankind to come to repentance" Actually He does.

Scripture says: 2Pet_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

While it is true, that this verse is talking about the ones that were chosen and have not yet come to know their Savior and this is the reason for the perception of slackness. In other words, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

There is a sense in which God does want everyone to come to repentance. On this we agree. But what is this sense?

The answer is in the Old Testament:

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is why God desires all to come to repentance. Because, God takes no pleasure in having to pour out His wrath. However, we know that His Holy Justice requires it, upon the wicked. Scripture goes on to teach, that there is nothing in the natural man, that desires to repent; so we do not want to confuse this kind of desire, on God's part, with God's eternal decree. He did not decree that all should come to repentance. If He had, all would and we know, all will not.

However, one cannot repent apart from the new birth (regeneration). When John the baptizer, said:

Mat 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:

He proclaimed that genuine repentance, was not just simply saying you had repented but you would show the fruit of repentance. The now believer would also show change in their belief, speech, language and way of life. This does not mean, the tree will be loaded down with fruit but it will have some fruit on it.

The ability to show fruit, worthy of repentance, not only requires the new birth but it requires the gift of repentance.

2Ti_2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,

This too only comes from God. The natural man cannot genuinely repent. This kind of repentance would not only be disingenuous but would bare no real fruit. Even among true believers, when they sin or stray from the path, they must be given repentance, in order that they turn back.
 
Jul 6, 2020
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ForestGreenCook said, "God does not want all of mankind to come to repentance" Actually He does.

Scripture says: 2Pet_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

While it is true, that this verse is talking about the ones that were chosen and have not yet come to know their Savior and this is the reason for the perception of slackness. In other words, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

There is a sense in which God does want everyone to come to repentance. On this we agree. But what is this sense?

The answer is in the Old Testament:

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is why God desires all to come to repentance. Because, God takes no pleasure in having to pour out His wrath. However, we know that His Holy Justice requires it, upon the wicked. Scripture goes on to teach, that there is nothing in the natural man, that desires to repent; so we do not want to confuse this kind of desire, on God's part, with God's eternal decree. He did not decree that all should come to repentance. If He had, all would and we know, all will not.

However, one cannot repent apart from the new birth (regeneration). When John the baptizer, said:

Mat 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:

He proclaimed that genuine repentance, was not just simply saying you had repented but you would show the fruit of repentance. The now believer would also show change in their belief, speech, language and way of life. This does not mean, the tree will be loaded down with fruit but it will have some fruit on it.

The ability to show fruit, worthy of repentance, not only requires the new birth but it requires the gift of repentance.

2Ti_2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,

This too only comes from God. The natural man cannot genuinely repent. This kind of repentance would not only be disingenuous but would bare no real fruit. Even among true believers, when they sin or stray from the path, they must be given repentance, in order that they turn back.
So they repent or perish after they are saved? :rolleyes:

Lets look at your assumptions.

Who do you assume the term toward you is addressing?
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Which is more reasonable and fitting in the context, that ungodly men need to come to repentance or perish, or that those who already repented and put there faith in his Promise need to do it again or perish?

Do you assume the granting of repentance is to individuals?
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So
then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.
The granting of repentance is the inclusion of non Jews in the promise of the Christ as evidenced by them receiving of the Holy Spirit.

The assumption that repentance without fruit is believing
Just like faith without the works of faith is dead/useless
Abraham was declared righteous after his steps/deeds/works of faith not before.

Now you are right that salvation goes beyond our first step, for it is in and through submitting ourselves to his lordship we are saved.
just like faith without works is dead so is our confession of Jesus as lord dead if it is only lip service and not followed by our subjecting ourselves to His lordship over us.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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So they repent or perish after they are saved? :rolleyes:

Lets look at your assumptions.

Who do you assume the term toward you is addressing?

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Which is more reasonable and fitting in the context, that ungodly men need to come to repentance or perish, or that those who already repented and put there faith in his Promise need to do it again or perish?

Do you assume the granting of repentance is to individuals?
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So
then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.
The granting of repentance is the inclusion of non Jews in the promise of the Christ as evidenced by them receiving of the Holy Spirit.

The assumption that repentance without fruit is believing
Just like faith without the works of faith is dead/useless
Abraham was declared righteous after his steps/deeds/works of faith not before.

Now you are right that salvation goes beyond our first step, for it is in and through submitting ourselves to his lordship we are saved.
just like faith without works is dead so is our confession of Jesus as lord dead if it is only lip service and not followed by our subjecting ourselves to His lordship over us.
I will assume, because of your answer, you really did not read my post.

"Toward you", is addressing those who are saved. The ones being impatient about His glorious return. He is longsuffering, on account of the chosen ones. Not that God is longsuffering His own people, this would be a foolish thought but is longsuffering the ones who are on their way to condemnation. The ones at this time that are wicked, vile , unrighteous, etc.....

I took no issue with this. You said "Which is more reasonable and fitting in the context, that ungodly men need to come to repentance or perish, or that those who already repented and put there faith in his Promise need to do it again or perish?"

The point of the post, is that God grants repentance. Not only in the initial steps of salvation but throughout the believers life.

Initially, in turning one toward Christ. This ones first fruits are in the form of genuine sorrow for the sins committed against God. When a new born believer first realizes that Christ took their sins and nailed all of them to the cross. And not just these but even the ones that will be committed. Every true believing individual can remember that glorious day.

However, throughout the believers life, they will still need repentance. Not for salvations sake, as it was in the beginning but to bring this one back into fellowship. Not only with God but also the Saints. In the verses of:

2Ti 2:24-26 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.

We see in the immediate context, that this "repentance", spoken of here, is a repentance of the believer, from serious error in handling the Truth of God's Word. But, if God "may give them repentance", who are believers, caught in the devil's snare, how much more doubtful then, the ones not yet believing.
 
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I will assume, because of your answer, you really did not read my post.

"Toward you", is addressing those who are saved. The ones being impatient about His glorious return. He is longsuffering, on account of the chosen ones. Not that God is longsuffering His own people, this would be a foolish thought but is longsuffering the ones who are on their way to condemnation. The ones at this time that are wicked, vile , unrighteous, etc.....
I read your post and addressed your assumptions.
You believe the term towards you is addressing them as believers. Your assumption.
I do not agree.

Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Why not take the slowness or God, his patience with you and i in coming for us (which is the core subject here) not as a slowness on Gods part towards us but as his desire, His not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance as we did rather then apply the need to repentance or perish to the believers who are waiting expectantly on His return?

The only way to see it the way you do is to bring something with you and let it color your perspective.
Because you reject that God could be desirous that all come to repentance and not perish, you can not see what is right in front of you.

Clearly the repentance is not a repentance to betterment but a repentance to salvation and the escape of judgement and destruction of the ungodly. Because no charge of wrongdoing is being laid against them. Only the encouragement to not let the mockers get to them about Jesus's delay in coming for them.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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well the verse in context is from Peter and it says
God does not wish for anyone to perish but that all would come to repentance.

So are you saying the believers will perish, if they do not repent (and believe). Since you say it is only applies to those who have been regenerated?
By keeping it in context, who are the "any" and "all" in 2 Pet 3:9 ? They are "them that have obtained like precious faith" 2 Pet 1:1. Peter even includes himself in his warning to them that have obtained like precious faith by using the word "USWARD". Perish, according to Greek equals "death" Death according to Greek equals "separation". When them that have obtained like precious faith commit a sin, they separate themselves from their fellowship with God, because God will not fellowship sin. until they repent.

All scriptures must harmonize in order to understand the doctrine of Christ.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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ForestGreenCook said, "God does not want all of mankind to come to repentance" Actually He does.

Scripture says: 2Pet_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

While it is true, that this verse is talking about the ones that were chosen and have not yet come to know their Savior and this is the reason for the perception of slackness. In other words, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

There is a sense in which God does want everyone to come to repentance. On this we agree. But what is this sense?

The answer is in the Old Testament:

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is why God desires all to come to repentance. Because, God takes no pleasure in having to pour out His wrath. However, we know that His Holy Justice requires it, upon the wicked. Scripture goes on to teach, that there is nothing in the natural man, that desires to repent; so we do not want to confuse this kind of desire, on God's part, with God's eternal decree. He did not decree that all should come to repentance. If He had, all would and we know, all will not.

However, one cannot repent apart from the new birth (regeneration). When John the baptizer, said:

Mat 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:

He proclaimed that genuine repentance, was not just simply saying you had repented but you would show the fruit of repentance. The now believer would also show change in their belief, speech, language and way of life. This does not mean, the tree will be loaded down with fruit but it will have some fruit on it.

The ability to show fruit, worthy of repentance, not only requires the new birth but it requires the gift of repentance.

2Ti_2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,

This too only comes from God. The natural man cannot genuinely repent. This kind of repentance would not only be disingenuous but would bare no real fruit. Even among true believers, when they sin or stray from the path, they must be given repentance, in order that they turn back.
Awelight, I am usually in total agreement with you, but I beg to differ with you about "God wanting "all mankind" to come unto repentance. I know that you know that God changed Jacob's name to henceforth be called ISRAEL, Gen 33:28. Jacob, being the representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11-13.

Eze33, has reference to "the house of ISRAEL" which is "the house of Jacob", God's elect. When God says that he has no pleasure in the death (separation from fellowship with God) of the wicked, he is speaking of the wicked of the elect, not all mankind.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I have explained 2 Pet 3:9 many times, but I guess that you might have overlooked it.

The people that Peter is giving this warning to are revealed in 2 Pet 1:1, which are "them that have obtained like precious faith". Peter is giving them a warning, and even includes himself by using the word US-WARD. His warning to them that have obtained like precious faith, is that when they commit a sin, for them to repent to keep from losing their fellowship with God, because God will not fellowship sin. The "any" and "all" have reference to "them that have obtained like precious faith" Perish, according to Greek means "death". Death, according to Greek means "separation.
 

tantalon

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Oct 11, 2019
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The "any" and "all", refer to the human family generally. Repentance and faith are the keys to salvation, of which verse 9 sums up who is being spoken to. 1st. Timothy 2: 4 also agrees with God's desire that all unsaved people be converted, "Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth". The Greek meaning for the word death can mean separation, but unless the word continues in it's context of "from life", it opens the door to speculations of it's proper meaning.
 

awelight

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I read your post and addressed your assumptions.
You believe the term towards you is addressing them as believers. Your assumption.
I do not agree.

Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Why not take the slowness or God, his patience with you and i in coming for us (which is the core subject here) not as a slowness on Gods part towards us but as his desire, His not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance as we did rather then apply the need to repentance or perish to the believers who are waiting expectantly on His return?

The only way to see it the way you do is to bring something with you and let it color your perspective.
Because you reject that God could be desirous that all come to repentance and not perish, you can not see what is right in front of you.

Clearly the repentance is not a repentance to betterment but a repentance to salvation and the escape of judgement and destruction of the ungodly. Because no charge of wrongdoing is being laid against them. Only the encouragement to not let the mockers get to them about Jesus's delay in coming for them.
You said you read the post, but your answers say otherwise. Perhaps you should take one point of the post and go from there and so a response can be formed over your objection.

I think though by your response, you are cutting the verse the wrong way....

2Pet_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; This seeming slackness, is referring to the perceived delay of those Peter is writing to. Reminding them, that scoffers would come saying, "And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (2Pet 3:4). He explains, that the Lord has not yet come, because the Lord is: "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This is not of the entire world, but of God's Elect, that are still to be brought in: Ex... John 10:15-16 " As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

2) ... but is longsuffering to you-ward... or perhaps better translated in our english, "....but is being patient towards[with] you", because these were demonstrating ignorance about the second coming:.... "But, beloved, be not ignorant...." (2Pet 3:8a).

3) Why did I translate this "...but is being patient towrds you..." because, the Greek word translated, "longsuffering" is: μακροθυμει, which primarily means, "To be long in patience, to endure". Next the Greek word: εἰς, which means, "to, unto or towards". Next the Greek word: ὑμᾶς, which primarily means, "you". Therefore, ..."patient toward you.."
 
Jul 6, 2020
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You said you read the post, but your answers say otherwise. Perhaps you should take one point of the post and go from there and so a response can be formed over your objection.

I think though by your response, you are cutting the verse the wrong way....

2Pet_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; This seeming slackness, is referring to the perceived delay of those Peter is writing to. Reminding them, that scoffers would come saying, "And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (2Pet 3:4). He explains, that the Lord has not yet come, because the Lord is: "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This is not of the entire world, but of God's Elect, that are still to be brought in: Ex... John 10:15-16 " As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

2) ... but is longsuffering to you-ward... or perhaps better translated in our english, "....but is being patient towards[with] you", because these were demonstrating ignorance about the second coming:.... "But, beloved, be not ignorant...." (2Pet 3:8a).

3) Why did I translate this "...but is being patient towrds you..." because, the Greek word translated, "longsuffering" is: μακροθυμει, which primarily means, "To be long in patience, to endure". Next the Greek word: εἰς, which means, "to, unto or towards". Next the Greek word: ὑμᾶς, which primarily means, "you". Therefore, ..."patient toward you.."
Yes God endures being without you, so others can come.
Note it does NOT say "wishing that none of YOU should perish" or "that all of YOU should repent"
That is your assumption or addition.
But rather it says the more general that "None should perish"

Note: It is also translated with a comma which implies a separation between you and the next statement about all/everyone

Note: the term towards actually means the following.
Original Word: εἰς
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: eis
Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
Definition: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, purpose, result)
patience regarding your place time purpose and result.
Patient towards is regarding your entrance, place time purpose and result promised as opposed to being slow in regards to his promises.
Then a COMMA to separate the thoughts.


The reason being you are not in heaven yet
is that God is not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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Awelight, I am usually in total agreement with you, but I beg to differ with you about "God wanting "all mankind" to come unto repentance. I know that you know that God changed Jacob's name to henceforth be called ISRAEL, Gen 33:28. Jacob, being the representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11-13.

Eze33, has reference to "the house of ISRAEL" which is "the house of Jacob", God's elect. When God says that he has no pleasure in the death (separation from fellowship with God) of the wicked, he is speaking of the wicked of the elect, not all mankind.
Hey that's okay. However, this is what I believe is being taught here. And I repeat,

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is why God desires all to come to repentance. Because, God takes no pleasure in having to pour out His wrath. However, we know that His Holy Justice requires it, upon the wicked. Scripture goes on to teach, that there is nothing in the natural man, that desires to repent; so we do not want to confuse this kind of desire, on God's part, with God's Eternal Decrees. He did not decree that all should come to repentance. If He had, all would and we know, all will not.

There is no reason, to not except that God wishes for all to repent and except the Gospel. If we try to eliminate this from Scripture, then God would be unjust in offering something that is not truly offered. The depraved man cannot repent apart from God's gracious gift and he cannot believe in the Gospel, apart from that same gracious gift. If the offer of Christ is not genuine (General call of the Gospel), Then God would be unjust, never offering to all of the lost, a way out.

However, God does not leave salvation up to fallen man because in his fallen state man will not repent or believe. Thus, the command to repent, is a genuine one and the Gospel offer is also genuine..... However, there is no unrighteousness with God or injustice, if man cannot do, what God has commanded. God is not responsible for the fall are man's inability. But God did Decree, that his chosen ones of the Jews and the Gentiles, would come to a saving knowledge in time.

Therefore, I do not fear, that by staying true to the above concept, anything is taken away from the Gospel truth. Rather it helps harmonize taking the Gospel into all nations. It is preached to all but only effectual in God's elect.

Make sense?
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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Yes God endures being without you, so others can come.
Note it does NOT say "wishing that none of YOU should perish" or "that all of YOU should repent"
That is your assumption or addition.
But rather it says the more general that "None should perish"

Note: It is also translated with a comma which implies a separation between you and the next statement about all/everyone

Note: the term towards actually means the following.
Original Word: εἰς
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: eis
Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
Definition: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, purpose, result)
patience regarding your place time purpose and result.
Patient towards is regarding your entrance, place time purpose and result promised as opposed to being slow in regards to his promises.
Then a COMMA to separate the thoughts.


The reason being you are not in heaven yet
is that God is not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I am sorry Lion222, but I have no idea what your point is here. I see you said,
Yes God endures being without you, so others can come.
Note it does NOT say "wishing that none of YOU should perish" or "that all of YOU should repent"

Without you, do you mean out of fellowship or what?
Don't understand the "Note", never implied anything like that.

Are you trying to push some kind of agenda here and are not just coming out and saying it?
Seriously and with as much humility as one can have, where are you going with this.?
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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Something to think about here.

The natural man, a man without a regenerated spirit, not only cannot receive spiritual things but hates these things and sees them as foolishness.

Here is what we should consider. If hearing the things of God's purpose was easy and comfortable for man, then the Apostle Paul would not have been lead by the Spirit, to write in the epistle to the Romans, with these anticipated objections, in the mind of men.

The book of Romans, is the most Doctrinal letter ever written by Paul. He did not know if he was going to be able to personally visit with this assembly. So he wrote a letter that would establish them in the faith. Solidly in the faith. He wrote about the deep things of God, thus things that are not easy to hear. Do you know, that there is a movement on today, to try and remove the Roman's epistle because it causes so many problems for those who want to teach "Easy believism". While others, just don't preach the parts they don't like, particularly chapter 9.

Let's look at these anticipated objections and where they are in Romans:

Chapter 1 - contains none.
Chapter 2 - contains 2 Major objections.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Chapter 3 - contains 1

Rom_3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Chapter 4 - contains 1

Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Chapter 5 - contains None
Chapter 6 - contains 1

Rom_6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Chapter 7 - contains 1

Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Chapter 8 - contains 1

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Chapter 9 - contains 4, 2 are Major objections.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Chapter 10 - contains None.
Chapter 11 - contains 1

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Chapter 12 - contains None.
Chapter 13 - contains None.
Chapter 14 - contains None.
Chapter 15 - contains None.
Chapter 16 - contains None.

What can be ascertained from this? That in Chapter 2, Paul is finishing up the condition of man, in his natural unregenerate state. Not something the natural man wants to hear. Indeed even some saved individuals find it difficult to except, for they maybe guilty of the same.

However the greatest area, of anticipated objections, is in chapter 9. No real surprise there. This chapter is the least taught and understood chapter of Romans. Indeed, the last portion of chapter 8 and most of chapter 9, maybe the hardest to hear chapters in Scripture. Therefore, Paul expected more objections in this area, than any where else. This should tell us something. If Romans was easy to hear, then Paul would not have used this method in his writings. In logical conclusion, what is being taught here, particularly in chapter 9, will not be easily received. But if one has the Spirit of God, they will be brought to the truth of it.

For those who try to undermine the last portion of chapter 8 and all of 9, should sincerely take this into account.
 
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Benson Commentary
2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slack — Ου βραδυνει, does not delay, or is not slow; concerning his promise — To fulfil it, as if the time fixed for the fulfilment of it were past; for it shall surely be fulfilled in its season; but is long-suffering, to us-ward — Children of men; not willing that any should perish — Any human being, any soul that he hath made. That is, he is not primarily willing; his first will, with regard to the whole posterity of Adam, hath been and is, that they should be eternally saved; and as a proof of it he hath given his Son a ransom for all; (1 Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9;) hath commanded his gospel, that is, the glad tidings of salvation, to be preached to all, to every human creature, (Mark 16:15,) and, to help man’s weakness, causes his grace, even his saving grace, (as η χαρις η σωτηριος literally signifies,) to appear to, or to visit and strive with, all men, in order to their repentance, faith, and new obedience. But if they reject his counsel against themselves, which they are under no necessity of doing, by continuing impenitent, unbelieving, and disobedient, then, secondly, he wills, and that justly, that they should perish, for they are accountable to him, their rightful Lawgiver, Governor, and Judge, and he will judge them, and all the world, in righteousness.

Expositor's Greek Testament
2 Peter 3:9. οὐ βραδύνει … ἡγοῦνται. The idea that is combated is that God has made a promise and has not kept it, He is, however, better than His promise. The additional element of His μακροθυμία is brought into play. God is greater than men’s conception of Him, especially if theirs is a mechanical view of the universe.—ὥς τινες βραδύτητα ἡγοῦνται. As nowhere else in the Epistle, here the writer of 2 Peter enables us to view the summit of the Christian Faith, and to rise to a magnificent conception of God. μὴ βουλόμενός, κ.τ.λ. Delay does not spring from an unwillingness or impotence to perform. His will is not even that “some” should perish, though that is regarded by the writer as inevitable. Are we to see here opposition in the writer’s mind to the purely logical interpretation of the Pauline teaching on Predestination? Some will perish, but it is not His Will. His Will is that all should come to repentance. The goodness of God should lead to repentance.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise - That is, it should not be inferred because His promise seems to be long delayed that therefore it will fail. When people, after a considerable lapse of time, fail to fulfil their engagements, we infer that it is because they have changed their plans, or because they have forgotten their promises, or because they have no ability to perform them, or because there is a lack of principle which makes them fail, regardless of their obligations. But no such inference can be drawn from the apparent delay of the fulfillment of the divine purposes. Whatever may be the reasons why they seem to be deferred, with God, we may be sure that it is from no such causes as these.
As some men count slackness - It is probable that the apostle here had his eye on some professing Christians who had become disheartened and impatient, and who, from the delay in regard to the coming of the Lord Jesus, and from the representations of those who denied the truth of the Christian religion, arguing from that delay that it was false, began to fear that his promised coming would indeed never occur. To such he says that it should not be inferred from his delay that he would not return, but that the delay should be regarded as an evidence of his desire that men should have space for repentance, and an opportunity to secure their salvation. See the notes at 2 Peter 3:15.

But is long-suffering to us-ward - Toward us. The delay should be regarded as a proof of His forbearance, and of His desire that all human beings should be saved.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness …] We enter here on the third answer, and it rests on the purpose which was working through what men looked on as a delay in the fulfilment of the promise. That purpose was one of love and mercy. It was not slackness or tardiness, but “long-suffering.” We note, as an evidence of identity of authorship, the recurrence of the thought which we have found in 1 Peter 3:20. The “long-suffering of God” which had shewn itself then, as in the history of Genesis 6:3, in the delay of a hundred and twenty years between the first prophetic warning of the coming judgment and the actual deluge, was manifested now in the interval, longer than the first disciples had anticipated, between the first and the second comings of the Christ. We ask, as we read the words, whether the Apostle, as he wrote them, contemplated the period of well-nigh two thousand years which has passed since without the expected Advent; and we have no adequate data for answering that question. It may well have been that though the horizon was receding as he looked into the future, it was still not given to him “to know the times and the seasons” (Acts 1:7), and that he still thought that the day of the Lord would come within much narrower limits, perhaps, even, in the lifetime of that generation. But the answer which he gives is the true answer to all doubts and questions such as then presented themselves, to reproductions of the like questions now. However long the interval, though it be for a period measured by millenniums, there is still the thought that this is but as a moment in the years of eternity, and that through that lengthened period, on earth or behind the veil, there is working the purpose of God, who doth not will that any should perish (comp. 1 Timothy 2:4; Ezekiel 18:23), but that all should come to repentance. Here again the word “perish” does not mean simple annihilation, but the state which is the opposite of salvation.
 
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I am sorry Lion222, but I have no idea what your point is here. I see you said,
Yes God endures being without you, so others can come.
Note it does NOT say "wishing that none of YOU should perish" or "that all of YOU should repent"

Without you, do you mean out of fellowship or what?
Don't understand the "Note", never implied anything like that.

Are you trying to push some kind of agenda here and are not just coming out and saying it?
Seriously and with as much humility as one can have, where are you going with this.?
Without taking possession of you coming and getting you. the context should have made that clear. They are waiting for his return.
No you just have some Calvinist blinders on brother, some presuppositions that keep you from just taking what is there as it is there.
 
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Something to think about here.

The natural man, a man without a regenerated spirit, not only cannot receive spiritual things but hates these things and sees them as foolishness.

Here is what we should consider. If hearing the things of God's purpose was easy and comfortable for man, then the Apostle Paul would not have been lead by the Spirit, to write in the epistle to the Romans, with these anticipated objections, in the mind of men.

The book of Romans, is the most Doctrinal letter ever written by Paul. He did not know if he was going to be able to personally visit with this assembly. So he wrote a letter that would establish them in the faith. Solidly in the faith. He wrote about the deep things of God, thus things that are not easy to hear. Do you know, that there is a movement on today, to try and remove the Roman's epistle because it causes so many problems for those who want to teach "Easy believism". While others, just don't preach the parts they don't like, particularly chapter 9.

Let's look at these anticipated objections and where they are in Romans:

Chapter 1 - contains none.
Chapter 2 - contains 2 Major objections.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Chapter 3 - contains 1

Rom_3:5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Chapter 4 - contains 1

Rom_4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Chapter 5 - contains None
Chapter 6 - contains 1

Rom_6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Chapter 7 - contains 1

Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Chapter 8 - contains 1

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Chapter 9 - contains 4, 2 are Major objections.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Chapter 10 - contains None.
Chapter 11 - contains 1

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Chapter 12 - contains None.
Chapter 13 - contains None.
Chapter 14 - contains None.
Chapter 15 - contains None.
Chapter 16 - contains None.

What can be ascertained from this? That in Chapter 2, Paul is finishing up the condition of man, in his natural unregenerate state. Not something the natural man wants to hear. Indeed even some saved individuals find it difficult to except, for they maybe guilty of the same.

However the greatest area, of anticipated objections, is in chapter 9. No real surprise there. This chapter is the least taught and understood chapter of Romans. Indeed, the last portion of chapter 8 and most of chapter 9, maybe the hardest to hear chapters in Scripture. Therefore, Paul expected more objections in this area, than any where else. This should tell us something. If Romans was easy to hear, then Paul would not have used this method in his writings. In logical conclusion, what is being taught here, particularly in chapter 9, will not be easily received. But if one has the Spirit of God, they will be brought to the truth of it.

For those who try to undermine the last portion of chapter 8 and all of 9, should sincerely take this into account.
The idea that God made man evil is what is rejected, God made man good.
But knowing beforehand the fall of man God also made man Good knowing who would become what based on their own free will.
Yet still he made them, for the sake of those who would respond to his love and choose Him he made them all predestining both whose who would choose His loving yoke of lordship unto salvation and the life of God in Christ Jesus and those who would reject Him to the awaiting flames.

But God himself is not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The Spirit and the bride say come, ... Let him who is thirsty come and drink the waters of life free of charge.

it is our thirst that draws man, for we where made for God and thirst for God not knowing it is God we thirst for and seek to satisfy that thirst in all the broken cisterns (water jugs) of sin.
But the gospel message is Jesus has made the way for you sinner, their is water over here to quench your thirst.
man does not come out of some goodness of his heart, but out of his desperate need to fill in him what constantly leaves him empty no matter what he tries to fill it with. That God shaped hole in his heart meets with the POWER of the Gospel each one is challenged regarding where to put their faith. To continue to believe what they can do will make any difference all evidence to the contrary to turn and put their hope in God.

The granting of repentance, is in being given a choice of another direction, a new path where one previously did not exist.
 
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Hey that's okay. However, this is what I believe is being taught here. And I repeat,

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

This is why God desires all to come to repentance. Because, God takes no pleasure in having to pour out His wrath. However, we know that His Holy Justice requires it, upon the wicked. Scripture goes on to teach, that there is nothing in the natural man, that desires to repent; so we do not want to confuse this kind of desire, on God's part, with God's Eternal Decrees. He did not decree that all should come to repentance. If He had, all would and we know, all will not.

There is no reason, to not except that God wishes for all to repent and except the Gospel. If we try to eliminate this from Scripture, then God would be unjust in offering something that is not truly offered. The depraved man cannot repent apart from God's gracious gift and he cannot believe in the Gospel, apart from that same gracious gift. If the offer of Christ is not genuine (General call of the Gospel), Then God would be unjust, never offering to all of the lost, a way out.

However, God does not leave salvation up to fallen man because in his fallen state man will not repent or believe. Thus, the command to repent, is a genuine one and the Gospel offer is also genuine..... However, there is no unrighteousness with God or injustice, if man cannot do, what God has commanded. God is not responsible for the fall are man's inability. But God did Decree, that his chosen ones of the Jews and the Gentiles, would come to a saving knowledge in time.

Therefore, I do not fear, that by staying true to the above concept, anything is taken away from the Gospel truth. Rather it helps harmonize taking the Gospel into all nations. It is preached to all but only effectual in God's elect.

Make sense?
Almost there ;)
 
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That I like
it is that to depraved to choose Christ unless God forces it on you stuff that I can abide.
Big difference between not looking for God but finding him in your desperate need because He was there for you and having God force you to love him against your will.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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That I like
it is that to depraved to choose Christ unless God forces it on you stuff that I can abide.
Big difference between not looking for God but finding him in your desperate need because He was there for you and having God force you to love him against your will.
Okay, now I finally see the agenda, You don't agree with man's spiritual depravity subsequent to the fall. So if you decide to stay in the Arminian camp or as I prefer, the Free Will camp then have it. Ultimately, that will be between you and the Lord.

But since you said this, "it is that to depraved to choose Christ unless God forces it on you stuff that I can abide." Who receives the glory in this, God or man? If you deny depravity, then is not man elevated to a personal choice? Does he not then have reason to boast? God gave us Jesus Christ and His sacrifice and then What? Set back and watched the fun. This puts man in control, does it not? Why would God, who planned all things, give up His Sovereign control now? God never leaves anything to chance, (whatever that is.... people talk about "chance" like it was some sort of intelligent entity).

Did Israel have a choice, in it becoming God's chosen nation? Did Moses have a choice, in being God's servant? Did any of the Prophets have a choice in their positions? When God commanded the tabernacle to be built, in the wilderness, He gave to those chosen men the knowledge to carry it out, did He not? When Christ came, in His earthly ministry, did the religionist of His day, as a whole, have a choice to Chose Him? Did any of the disciples make a choice for Christ or did He personally chose them? Did Paul, a Pharisee of the Pharisee's, have a choice in his calling on the way to Damascus?

One could go on seemingly forever like this. But because you see verses that imply something about choice, you ignore all these facts