God of the Paradox

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Sep 14, 2014
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OK I'm confused now. You said when you take the leap of faith you'll find the evidence and proof.

Naturally that evidence and proof should remove your faith. Because it's not a faith anymore.. Its a proven fact.

Now your saying there is no 100 percent proof.

Are you saying the evidence you find after the leap of faith is not good evidence?
 
Dec 26, 2014
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perhaps: if your six years old, and your father calls long distance and says he'll be home tomorrow morning after 3 years absence programming computers in the aunt art Tika ,

you will HAVE FAITH that he will be home, (or hope anyway!) , (unless he lied to you before, a lot or maybe just once even - that's hard and another case)....

when does your FAITH go away ?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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perhaps: if your six years old, and your father calls long distance and says he'll be home tomorrow morning after 3 years absence programming computers in the aunt art Tika ,

you will HAVE FAITH that he will be home, (or hope anyway!) , (unless he lied to you before, a lot or maybe just once even - that's hard and another case)....

when does your FAITH go away ?
Let's keep this to the quality of evidence you receive after you making a leap of faith.

Once we've gone through that I'll be happy to discuss your question.
 
Dec 31, 2014
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This video isn't about reason or truth, it's just using a bunch of strawmen so that atheists can sleep more soundly.

This video presents it's strawmen in a weird order intentionally to try to make each request "god" makes seem separate from all the others, which they are not. I'm going to be explaining why these strawmen are wrong in a more sensible order.

(Preface: You can see from the length of my response why it's so much easier to just use strawmen then to actually argue the points. Nothing worth saying can be explained in so few words. This response is for anyone that felt like the video raised legitimate problems (which it did not))

Something cannot come from nothing, which implies it is necessary that something has always existed (or else we would currently still have nothing, which we do not).
If you believe free will exists this implies it is necessary that you believe that will is a causeless cause (that is, a cause which itself has no cause).
Since it is necessary that something has always existed, and the only thing in existence that is causeless is will, then we can conclude that the thing which has always existed is a will.
Since time and space have not always existed, this will could not exist exclusively within time and space. Since will is the only causeless cause, and before the universe there was only this will, it is necessary that the universe was a creation of the will. The idea that something that is spaceless and timeless cannot act is ludicrous because before the universe something that was spaceless and timeless had to act in order for the universe to come into existence. If nothing acted, then the universe is causeless, which is an attribute that only will can have.

In order for the will to exist inside of its creation and outside it must exist in at least two distinct persons. This is necessary because in order for the will to interact with a time dependant universe it must make part of itself time dependant. But seeing as the will exists outside of time, it would know everything for the simple reason that anything that could be known "at any time" to the will would be known "at all times". I put that in quotes because obviously if it exists outside of time, the word time becomes meaningless. But this shows the necessity of the will being all knowing, because unlike us, who don't know a thing one moment but know it the next, the will outside of time cannot change, this includes in knowledge. Therefore the will is omniscient. Since the will created the universe, it is reasonable to assume it is omnipotent, as it can will things into existence. Since the will is omnipotent, it is reasonable to assume that it can be everyone at once if it desires to be, which is omnipresence.

Claiming that this is all "supernatural" is pointless, because we are talking about what must have preceded nature. We know that existence preceded nature (i.e. the universe) so whatever existed before will be supernatural, but that does not mean that we cannot know anything about it.

Next we get into morality. The video claims that God cannot have a plan for us and give us free will at the same time. But this is nonsense. People make plans all the time about things they cannot control. Parents want things for children, even though they ultimately leave it up to their children to decide. The chess analogy would make more sense if it was the opponent that had free will, not the pieces. A parent does not need to take away their child's free will in order to direct them. A man that robs a bank has a plan, even though he has no control over all the terrified people in the bank. So to claim that you cannot have a plan or a means of carrying it out without controlling people's free will is false. And it is because God has allowed us to be free that we have the ability to go wrong. And the more powerfully he makes a will, the more potential it has for good or for evil. This is why there is no sense in asking why he made something as bad as the devil. The better question would be why did he make something as free as us? He could have made us like puppets, but evidently he didn't want that sort of creation. A creation which only moved when he pulled the strings. To claim that Satan would have no desire or reason to oppose God is naive. I have talked to people that claim they would oppose the God I describe, and they have much less means. Jesus was called logos, which amoungst other things means "to reason". Hateful people do not act from reason, they act from hate, and evil hates what is good. If you have not seen this with your own eyes, I hope you will someday.

If you listen to people quarreling you will inevitably hear someone say something like "That's not fair, you made a promise" or "I shared with you, now you should share with me". Everyday people make the assumption that there is some standard which all people at bottom understand, and ought to follow. When people break promises they often say that the promise was not fair, you will rarely hear them say, "I don't care", because deep down, they agree about the standard, they would just like an exception in there case. Some people say that this is evolutionary instinct, a herd mentality. But often this herd mentality comes in direct contradiction with the survival instinct. If a man is drowning, you have two instincts, the herd instinct is telling you to save him, and the survival instinct is telling you to not risk your own life. But there is a third thing that is telling you which instinct you ought to follow, and which you ought to suppress. This third thing is neither of the instincts, it comes from somewhere else, and it often sides with the weaker of the impulses, and causes you to do things like stir up your pity for the drowning man in order to get you to do what you don't want to do, but know that you should. This third thing cannot be accounted for without presupposing the existence of God.

In order for there to be objective morality it must come from God. It is therefore nonsense to claim that God is evil, because he is the source of your understand of what is good. If you disagree with something he has done, it is likely because you don't see the whole picture. To illustrate this point, a verse from scripture,
"But Samuel said, "As your sword has made women childless, so will your mother be childless among women." And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal." - 1 Samuel 15:33
Saul thought that it was good to spare the Agag, even though God told him not to. God knew what Agag had done, and that his death would be justice. One of the big problems that we have today is that we don't understand justice anymore. Humanity has become so soft that they no longer understand it, and they often see justice as an evil. As for natural disasters and the like, people often say, "How could a good God let such a thing happen?" but how can you argue that God is not good if goodness cannot exist without God? Why do you believe that the world is not as it should be, unless of course you have been given some idea of a paradise? Afterall, if the world is all that we have ever known, and it is all that we ever will known, then why is it that we all think that there is something wrong with it?

In summary, all of these childish attacks come from an ignorance of philosophy. Everything in this video has been said for hundreds of years, and rejected by many great thinkers. Even thinking atheists don't try to use the arguments, because they know that if you assume an objective morality then you've already lost. They also know that if you assume the existence of free will and moral responsibility that they have already lost. The only way you can defend atheism at all is if you assume that their is no real morality, and that we are all just biological machines that are no different from computers. This video however is just indulgent nonsense.
 
Dec 31, 2014
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Now see. You change your position halfway through. First you say something cannot come from nothing... Then you say something has to have existed eternally. You create some rules to weaken other people's arguments and then you break them to reinforce your own.
The problem with his post is not that he claimed "something cannot come from nothing" and "something has to have existed eternally". The problem with his post is that he claimed "something cannot come from nothing" and "everything has to have an origin". I agree with the "something cannot come from nothing" but disagree with "everything has to have an origin". It is necessary that something does not have an origin. Something must be itself without a cause, or we would still have nothing, as there would be no dominoes, and nothing to get them falling over.
 

prove-all

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May 16, 2014
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So you don't have faith then... You've received proof?

Because if you've recieved proof then there is no need for faith.

i had and still have faith, and then God confirmed he was real to me,

the bible says that is the only way it can happen.

also no one comes to the son, unless the father sends to him.

you have to believe, then he shows proff to you, in youre heart and other ways.

but he will not show himself to non believers, that is what it says in the bible.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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i had and still have faith, and then God confirmed he was real to me,

the bible says that is the only way it can happen.

also no one comes to the son, unless the father sends to him.

you have to believe, then he shows proff to you, in youre heart and other ways.

but he will not show himself to non believers, that is what it says in the bible.
But are you saying you no longer have faith or belief.. Because now you know its fact?
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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But are you saying you no longer have faith or belief.. Because now you know its fact?
I had, and still have faith, and belief. knowing facts will strenthen the faith,

but faith and belief has to come first
 
Jul 22, 2014
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OK I'm confused now. You said when you take the leap of faith you'll find the evidence and proof.

Naturally that evidence and proof should remove your faith. Because it's not a faith anymore.. Its a proven fact.

Now your saying there is no 100 percent proof.

Are you saying the evidence you find after the leap of faith is not good evidence?
All evidences that back up the Bible are good for the believer and they are not for the unbeliever who rebels against God and His Word. For God reveals the hidden and deep things of His Word to His people. Only those who have the Spirit can see. They are good evidences, but they are not exactly a type of evidence that is like a smoking gun and nor are they the type of evidence like God appearing to someone. Nor are these evidences not significant enough for the believer whereby he would be in awe of God and His Word, either. For one's understanding has to be opened by God. Without that, and not even a huge neon sign that says "Jesus loves you" falling into the roof of your house will do you any good (spiritually).
 
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Sep 14, 2014
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All evidences that back up the Bible are good for the believer and they are not for the unbeliever who rebels against God and His Word. For God reveals the hidden and deep things of His Word to His people. Only those who have the Spirit can see. They are good evidences, but they are not exactly a type of evidence that is like a smoking gun and nor are they the type of evidence like God appearing to someone. Nor are these evidences not significant enough for the believer whereby he would be in awe of God and His Word, either. For one's understanding has to be opened by God. Without that, and not even a huge neon sign that says "Jesus loves you" falling into the roof of your house will do you any good (spiritually).
So its not actually evidence then... Just More confirmation bias.

Otherwise if it was actual evidence it would contradict scripture.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen
We walk by faith, not by sight
More blessed are those who have not seen and believed
 
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TheAristocat

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Oct 4, 2011
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If you believe free will exists this implies it is necessary that you believe that will is a causeless cause (that is, a cause which itself has no cause).
I feel a lot of atheists don't believe in free will when it comes to theological debates. They always attempt to use the cause-effect line of argument that absolves them of responsibility for their actions and places the blame on God. But this isn't a particularly good debate tactic.

If it were not possible for us to have free will, then why would God have it? And if God has it, then why would he not give it to us if he desires all his worshipers to worship him in spirit and in truth? So either both we and God have no free will and no one can be blamed or else we both have free will and we're each to blame for our own actions. So either the burden of responsibility comes back upon the atheist in this scenario or God is absolved of responsibility.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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Plus I'm not talking about the evidence for non believers.

I'm asking is this evidence good enough for you to no longer require faith, but to accept it as fact?
 
Sep 14, 2014
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I had, and still have faith, and belief. knowing facts will strenthen the faith,

but faith and belief has to come first
You can't have it both ways. You either have faith... Or you KNOW.

Faith is something you have when there is no evidence. Once you receive that evidence, faith no longer applies.
 
T

twotwo

Guest
You can't have it both ways. You either have faith... Or you KNOW.

Faith is something you have when there is no evidence. Once you receive that evidence, faith no longer applies.
Faith is more a question of trust.

The apostle knew Jesus and they trust him.

Christian knows Jesus and they trust that he will keep his promises.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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This video isn't about reason or truth, it's just using a bunch of strawmen so that atheists can sleep more soundly. ...
Thank you for taking the time to explain the fallacy contained in that atheists video. The paradoxes presented to those not familiar with the matrix of philosophy do give one pause. At least this one until reading your remarks and those of others.

Funny how atheists argue there is no such thing as God. And then very often commit moments of their life arguing with believers in God so as to present themselves as atheists committed to proving they believe in wasting their time on something that they've first said isn't there.

Thanks again.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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So its not actually evidence then... Just More confirmation bias.

Otherwise if it was actual evidence it would contradict scripture.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen
We walk by faith, not by sight
More blessed are those who have not seen and believed
Not all evidences are the same. There are many evidences used in court to prove a case, but not all of them are the types of evidences that would be enough to convince a jury or a judge, though (Like say a very clear video of the crime actually happening). Oh, and I know what Hebrews 11:1 says. I quote it all the time. The evidences spoken here is in context to things hoped for and things not yet seen. Meaning, the promises given to us in Scripture. We have not personally witnessed with our own two eyes any of the events in the Bible and or what is to come (i.e. the things hoped for - Heaven, the Millennium, the Eternal New Earth, etc.).
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Not all evidences are the same. There are many evidences used in court to prove a case, but not all of them are the types of evidences that would be enough to convince a jury or a judge, though (Like say a very clear video of the crime actually happening). Oh, and I know what Hebrews 11:1 says. I quote it all the time. The evidences spoken here is in context to things hoped for and things not yet seen. Meaning, the promises given to us in Scripture. We have not personally witnessed with our own two eyes any of the events in the Bible and or what is to come (i.e. the things hoped for - Heaven, the Millennium, the Eternal New Earth, etc.).
In fact, Sarah within Hebrews 11 is used as an example of faith. She believed God's promise in her older age that she would give birth to a child. This took place after the Lord spoke to her about why she laughed at God's promise in Genesis 18. She heard God's voice. This is evidence of God. But yet she still needed to have faith. Faith in the fact that God was telling the truth. Faith in the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. She had no vision of her having a child or anything like that. She trusted the Lord in His promise. She believed His Word (When no actual evidence was present). That is faith. It's not in the fact that we know God exists and that His Word is based on things that are logical and orderly.
 
Sep 14, 2014
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In fact, Sarah within Hebrews 11 is used as an example of faith. She believed God's promise in her older age that she would give birth to a child. This took place after the Lord spoke to her about why she laughed at God's promise in Genesis 18. She heard God's voice. This is evidence of God. But yet she still needed to have faith. Faith in the fact that God was telling the truth. Faith in the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. She had no vision of her having a child or anything like that. She trusted the Lord in His promise. She believed His Word (When no actual evidence was present). That is faith. It's not in the fact that we know God exists and that His Word is based on things that are logical and orderly.
Yeah. Knowing someone exists in different to having faith in their word or trusting them.

That makes sense.

However, let's go back to this leap of faith. At the moment I don't believe god is real. If I make the leap of faith.. I still don't know he is real, I have made a leap of faith. How do I move from the leap of faith position to knowing he exists?
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Yeah. Knowing someone exists in different to having faith in their word or trusting them.

That makes sense.

However, let's go back to this leap of faith. At the moment I don't believe god is real. If I make the leap of faith.. I still don't know he is real, I have made a leap of faith. How do I move from the leap of faith position to knowing he exists?
When you believe God and His Word so as to accept Him, you are already assuming He exists by faith. Every believer is different. Some do not have confirmation of God moving in their life until later, and others know right away. But one does not act in faith upon God's Word just so as to that they might hope to get some kind of confirmation that He exists.

Anyways, anytime you are ready for the Lord, here is the...

Good News:



#1. Admit Your A Sinner:


Romans 3:10-12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."



Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"




2. Realize that there is a Judgment or Consequence of your Sin:

Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"



Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."



Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."



Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."




#3. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day…"



John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."



Romans 5:8
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."



1 Peter 2:24
"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."



Isaiah 53:5
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."



2 Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."



1 Corinthians 15:22
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."



Romans 5:17-18
"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."



Ephesians 1:7
"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"



Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."




#4. Call Upon the Name of the Lord:

Romans 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."




#5. Repent of Your Sins:

Matthew 4:17

"Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."



Luke 13:3
"…Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."



2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."



1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."




#6. Confess With Your Mouth the Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 10:9

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."




#7. Endure in Your Faith to the End:

Matthew 10:22

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."


 
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Sep 14, 2014
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I'm sorry to keep pressing on this but its still not very clear to me. So there is a difference between having faith and knowing.

It is possible to move from having faith he exists to knowing he exists?