God of the Paradox

[Elin]

I'm happy to discuss your reasoning here.

Everything that exists must have a cause.

God exists.. He must have a cause that caused him to exist.

Now, if your going to make an exception to that just to support your position, then
your position isnt valid.

It's your reasoning that isn't valid, choosing absurdity over the logical conclusion evidenced by the natural order.

In the physical order, origins do not follow the ordinary order.

Adam and Eve were not born as babies.

All the first animals were not born as babies.

Matter and energy were not the result of natural physics.

There is no way creatures can know how it all began without the revelation of the Creator.

You choose absurdity over that revelation.

You can't get here from there.

 

[Elin]

I don't know lol, I'm not the one who proposed that everything must have a cause/creator.

And you beautifully illustrated why it is a flawed proposition.

From where I sit, you beautifully illustrate absurdity over logic.

 

[ColinCat]

From where I sit, you beautifully illustrate absurdity over logic.

I don't know how it all began and I'm not making any claims. What's absurd about that? It's not absurd to disbelieve a supernatural being made it all happen... Especially when there is no evidence.

So, please show me how I'm being absurd by not accepting something without evidence?

We simply don't know enough about the universe. Imagine showing a TV to someone 500 years ago, they'd think it was some kind of magic. We know how a TV works now.. But back then.. Magic would have been the only logical explanation.

 

[Elin]

From where I sit, you beautifully illustrate absurdity over logic.

I don't know how it all began and
I'm not making any claims. What's absurd about that? It's not absurd
to disbelieve a supernatural being made it all happen... Especially when there is no evidence.

You can't even see what your claim is.

So, please show me how I'm being absurd by not accepting something without evidence?

We simply don't know enough about the universe. Imagine showing a TV to someone 500 years ago, they'd think it was some kind of magic. We know how a TV works now.. But back then.. Magic would have been the only logical explanation.

We're not back then, we're now.

There is nothing magical about the Creator.

You prefer the absurdity of no first cause to the logical conclusion evidenced by the existence of matter and energy.

Can't help you there.

 

[ColinCat]

We're not back then, we're now.

No, but at some point in the future people may well look back and say "People used to think it was a god.. But now we know"


Let's say I agree there's a prime mover. Fine. There is a creator. So amidst the numerous creation stories, how do we make the leap to Yahweh?

 

[Elin]

No, but at some point in the future people may well look back and say "People used to think it was a god.. But now we know"


Let's say I agree there's a prime mover. Fine. There is a creator. So amidst the numerous creation stories, how do we make the leap to Yahweh?

That, my friend, is only by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ColinCat]

That, my friend, is only by the Holy Spirit.

I can see where your coming from when it comes to a prime mover. Although I don't think I would ever be a deist, I can see how your arriving at that position. But I know for a fact I could never move to a theist position.

 

[Elin]

I can see where your coming from when it comes to a prime mover. Although I don't think I would ever be a deist, I can see how your arriving at that position. But
I know for a fact I could never move to a theist position.

I likewise know the same fact, and am in total agreement with your inability to do so.

It cannot be done apart from the convincing work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ColinCat]

I likewise know the same fact, and am in total agreement with your inability to do so.

It cannot be done apart from the convincing work of the Holy Spirit.

I suppose my basic argument is.. We don't know if the universe was created, we don't know if it is a byproduct of another creation and we don't know if its been here forever.

And if it was created, we have nothing to indicate what created it or how it was created or why it was created.

And because we don't know.. That doesn't give us licence to make stuff up!

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

... we have nothing to indicate what created it or how it was created or why it was created.

Uh ... not quite true.

Genesis 1, NASB
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

And because we don't know.. That doesn't give us licence to make stuff up!

"The Earth is 14 billion years old" and "We are here because of evolution" are what has been made up. God's word is not. I really, sincerely pray you come to understand that some day, Colin. God bless.

 

[Jimbone]

What a truly great conversation Elin and ColinCat, maybe one of the best I've seen on CC in my opinion.

ColinCat I know the "leap" you're talking about, the disconnect between what we deduce logically and being able to say "I know God is real and Jesus is exactly who the bible claims he is". That does lead right to "what about all the other Gods, who's to say ours is right?" if you think about it logically. I felt the same way even once I started to call myself Christian. I think it comes from the inability to accept the supernatural as something literally real. We are conditioned from birth from every outlet on this planet to write off the supernatural, and never even consider it. From a secular worldview this makes perfect sense no doubt. Even as a professing Christian I thought the same way, I just thought it was strait up arrogant to say to anyone I have the truth and everyone else is wrong, how could anyone not see it that way? I can and will make that claim now and only because I am 100% convinced it’s truth.

How could I make that claim now? I can tell you I didn’t do anything to come to this conclusion, nor did any other man convince me, God did. I know that sounds like the “cop out”, but that’s who did it. I agree fully when people say “you can’t prove the supernatural”, we absolutely can’t, but God can and that’s how Christians are made. I didn’t reach the end of my own ability and decide to pick up my bible and start “being good”, to be honest for me it worked completely backwards. I was saved and regenerated by the supernatural Holy Spirit and then WANTED to pick up my bible and learn more. I called myself a Christian for 5 years and never picked up my bible, but once God came in and changed me from the inside out I did. I can take no credit at all for the amazing changes in my life, it was all Him and it was all as REAL as it could be, not some personal delusion. I think I’ve asked you to read my testimony before (couldn’t find the comment I was thinking of, so it may very well have been someone else) and you said you didn’t look into personal accounts like that, but I personally would really, really, like to get your take on it. I would just like to get an outside perspective on what you think may have happen to change me. This isn’t anything other than a curiosity for me so if you don’t have time or want to no big deal.

Here it is My testimony to Gods glory in my life. It's long but worth a read.

All that aside I did love the conversation here, thank both of you.

 

[ColinCat]

Uh ... not quite true.

Genesis 1, NASB
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.​

I see your Yahweh and I raise you a Hindu god Brahma

"Brahma began from nothingness. By thought alone, he created the waters, into which he deposited his semen. This grew into a golden egg, out of which he was born. By thought again, he split the egg in two, and the halves became heaven and earth."

How is that any more or less believable?

How is that more or less true?

 

[ColinCat]

What a truly great conversation Elin and ColinCat, maybe one of the best I've seen on CC in my opinion.

ColinCat I know the "leap" you're talking about, the disconnect between what we deduce logically and being able to say "I know God is real and Jesus is exactly who the bible claims he is". That does lead right to "what about all the other Gods, who's to say ours is right?" if you think about it logically. I felt the same way even once I started to call myself Christian. I think it comes from the inability to accept the supernatural as something literally real. We are conditioned from birth from every outlet on this planet to write off the supernatural, and never even consider it. From a secular worldview this makes perfect sense no doubt. Even as a professing Christian I thought the same way, I just thought it was strait up arrogant to say to anyone I have the truth and everyone else is wrong, how could anyone not see it that way? I can and will make that claim now and only because I am 100% convinced it’s truth.

How could I make that claim now? I can tell you I didn’t do anything to come to this conclusion, nor did any other man convince me, God did. I know that sounds like the “cop out”, but that’s who did it. I agree fully when people say “you can’t prove the supernatural”, we absolutely can’t, but God can and that’s how Christians are made. I didn’t reach the end of my own ability and decide to pick up my bible and start “being good”, to be honest for me it worked completely backwards. I was saved and regenerated by the supernatural Holy Spirit and then WANTED to pick up my bible and learn more. I called myself a Christian for 5 years and never picked up my bible, but once God came in and changed me from the inside out I did. I can take no credit at all for the amazing changes in my life, it was all Him and it was all as REAL as it could be, not some personal delusion. I think I’ve asked you to read my testimony before (couldn’t find the comment I was thinking of, so it may very well have been someone else) and you said you didn’t look into personal accounts like that, but I personally would really, really, like to get your take on it. I would just like to get an outside perspective on what you think may have happen to change me. This isn’t anything other than a curiosity for me so if you don’t have time or want to no big deal.

Here it is My testimony to Gods glory in my life. It's long but worth a read.

All that aside I did love the conversation here, thank both of you.

I shall have a look this evening sir. Ain't seen my mother for a few weeks so id better nip and see her today lol

 

[Jimbone]

I shall have a look this evening sir. Ain't seen my mother for a few weeks so id better nip and see her today lol

Cool man that sounds good and I really do appreciate it. I also hope everything is good with your mom and y'all have a great visit as well.

 

[Elin]

What a truly great conversation Elin and ColinCat, maybe one of the best I've seen on CC in my opinion.

ColinCat I know the "leap" you're talking about, the disconnect between what we deduce logically and being able to say "I know God is real and Jesus is exactly who the bible claims he is". That does lead right to "what about all the other Gods, who's to say ours is right?" if you think about it logically. I felt the same way even once I started to call myself Christian. I think it comes from the inability to accept the supernatural as something literally real. We are conditioned from birth from every outlet on this planet to write off the supernatural, and never even consider it. From a secular worldview this makes perfect sense no doubt. Even as a professing Christian I thought the same way, I just thought it was strait up arrogant to say to anyone I have the truth and everyone else is wrong, how could anyone not see it that way? I can and will make that claim now and only because I am 100% convinced it’s truth.

How could I make that claim now? I can tell you I didn’t do anything to come to this conclusion, nor did any other man convince me, God did. I know that sounds like the “cop out”, but that’s who did it. I agree fully when people say “you can’t prove the supernatural”, we absolutely can’t, but God can and that’s how Christians are made. I didn’t reach the end of my own ability and decide to pick up my bible and start “being good”, to be honest for me it worked completely backwards. I was saved and regenerated by the supernatural Holy Spirit and then WANTED to pick up my bible and learn more. I called myself a Christian for 5 years and never picked up my bible, but once God came in and changed me from the inside out I did. I can take no credit at all for the amazing changes in my life, it was all Him and it was all as REAL as it could be, not some personal delusion. I think I’ve asked you to read my testimony before (couldn’t find the comment I was thinking of, so it may very well have been someone else) and you said you didn’t look into personal accounts like that, but I personally would really, really, like to get your take on it. I would just like to get an outside perspective on what you think may have happen to change me. This isn’t anything other than a curiosity for me so if you don’t have time or want to no big deal.

Here it is My testimony to Gods glory in my life. It's long but worth a read.

All that aside I did love the conversation here, thank both of you.

It's because CC is honest and not trying to play games.

 

[Jimbone]

It's because CC is honest and not trying to play games.

Agreed 100% and it is very refreshing to see. LOL, it took me a minute to understand what you meant, I was making CC mean “Christian Chat”, but using the full power of my brain I realized you meant ColinCat. (it hurt a little, but what’s a little smoke coming out of my ears?) I have gathered that from his comments here in general, that’s why I am truly interested in his take on my testimony and how God saved me, the reasoning I feel so assured that it's all real. Again thanks to both of you. 8^)

 

[Elin]

I suppose my basic argument is.. We don't know if the universe was created, we don't know if it is a byproduct of another creation and we don't know if its been here forever.

And if it was created, we have nothing to indicate what created it or how it was created or why it was created.

And because we don't know.. That doesn't give us licence to make stuff up!

Keeping in mind that just because we did not personally witness and experience it
does not mean we do not know.

I did not personally witness Julius Caesar but I do not question his existence.
I rely on the witness and testimony of others.

Likewise, I did not personally witness nor experience the Creator of the Universe,
I rely on the witness and testimony of Moses.

Nor did I personally witness or experience Jesus Christ.
I rely on the witness and testimony of the Apostles who did witness his glory, full of grace and truth.

My evidence for God is no different than your evidence for Julius Caesar; i.e., I trust the testimony of eye witnesses.

 

[prove-all]

Where did matter and energy come from?

What is the Spirit of God? Jeremiah 32:17; Genesis 1:1-3; Psalm 104:30.

The Bible says the Spirit of God is the power by which God creates.
John 1:1 reveals that in the beginning, there was God and the Word (who became Christ).

The Word created the universe using the Spirit of God. Spirit energy was literally transformed
into the material creation (Hebrews 11:3).

It was by this same power that God renewed the surface of the Earth.

How did the Word use His Spirit of power to create? Psalm 148:1-5. Notice the word commanded.
Also read Psalm 33:8-9 and Genesis 1:2-3.

The Word “spake, and it was done.” He willed that spirit energy emanating from Himself to transform
into physical energy and matter. That is how the creation of the universe was accomplished.


Is God’s Spirit omnipresent? Psalm 139:7-8; Jeremiah 23:24.
What does God use to sustain His vast creation? Hebrews 1:2-3; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 66:7.

God’s Spirit is everywhere, like the atmosphere on Earth. It is the power God uses to rule everything.
It is what the Word used to do the work of creating. God uses this power much as man uses electrical energy.

That is how Christ is “upholding all things by the word of his power.” Under the Father, He uses His authority as God
and the power of the God Family to keep everything in the universe in its place.

Though the Father is supreme in the God Family (John 14:28), Jesus is the administrator of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). The Spirit is not a personality, but rather the very power of God—the power by which God does His will.

 

[Elin]

What is the Spirit of God? Jeremiah 32:17; Genesis 1:1-3; Psalm 104:30.

The Bible says the Spirit of God is the power by which God creates.
John 1:1 reveals that in the beginning, there was God and the Word (who became Christ).

The Word created the universe using the Spirit of God. Spirit energy was literally transformed
into the material creation (Hebrews 11:3).

It was by this same power that God renewed the surface of the Earth.

How did the Word use His Spirit of power to create? Psalm 148:1-5. Notice the word commanded.
Also read Psalm 33:8-9 and Genesis 1:2-3.

The Word “spake, and it was done.” He willed that spirit energy emanating from Himself to transform
into physical energy and matter. That is how the creation of the universe was accomplished.


Is God’s Spirit omnipresent? Psalm 139:7-8; Jeremiah 23:24.
What does God use to sustain His vast creation? Hebrews 1:2-3; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 66:7.

God’s Spirit is everywhere, like the atmosphere on Earth. It is the power God uses to rule everything.
It is what the Word used to do the work of creating. God uses this power much as man uses electrical energy.

That is how Christ is “upholding all things by the word of his power.” Under the Father, He uses His authority as God
and the power of the God Family to keep everything in the universe in its place.

Though the Father is supreme in the God Family (John 14:28), Jesus is the administrator of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). The Spirit is not a personality, but rather the very power of God—the power by which God does His will.

Thanks.

The question was addressed to the atheist ColinCat.

 

[Jason0047]

I don't know lol, I'm not the one who proposed that everything must have a cause/creator.

And you beautifully illustrated why it is a flawed proposition.

Something can't come from nothing. Everything has to have an origin. We don't see things just popping out thin air or nothingness. There has to be something that existed eternally prior in order to set the ball in motion for the entire physical universe to exist. The chances that Earth meets all the perfect conditions that meet for life AND... for that life to be comfortable in it's environment .... is impossible on a mathematical level. When you add up everything that is needed for life .... AND... for that life's comfort (Such as a good environment, food source, etc.) you can't help to think that we do in fact live by the design of a Creator and not by some random chance of molecules coming together the right way to form life. For do we see life forming over long periods of time? No. How about even just once? No. What about all the half giraffe half something else transitional fossils? Shouldn't we see life forms in a gradual constant change of flux? But instead we see distinctive different species of animals just as God created them after their kind. There is no intermediate species. Neither is there tons of intermediate species fossils, either. Why? Because they don't exist. Evolution is just a made up theory for people who do not want God in their lives.