Have you believed the false grace message?

[Sirk]

Great thoughts and very well said. Encouraging and compassionate and TRUTH.

I could be a little more tender in a lot of my posts.

When we lift the covers from our feelings
We expose our insecure spots
Trust is just as rare as devotion
Forgive us our cynical thoughts
If we need too much attention
Not content with being cool
We must throw ourselves wide open
And start acting like a fool
If we need too much approval
Then the cuts can seem too cruel​

Right to the heart of the matter
Right to the beautiful part
Illusions are painfully shattered
Right where discovery starts
In the secret wells of emotion
Buried deep in our hearts

It's true that love can change us
But never quite enough
Sometimes we are too tender
Sometimes we're too tough
If we get too much attention
It gets hard to overrule
So often fragile power turns
To scorn and ridicule
Sometimes our big splashes
Are just ripples in the pool

 

[Sirk]

Its a song by Rush called emotion detector. Sorry should have given credit.

 

[PeterJens]

How can people say he is not teaching works. There it was in plain sight.
"Repent, Confess and WALK IN HIS WAYS (WORK) and you will be saved"
Anyone who can read that and not say it is works gospel I will never understand,, they must be selectively reading or something it can not mean anything else.

I would like to make an observation.
People appear to believe as one we are saved in Christ and as a fruit of this we walk in
obedience to Christ. There is discussion about how the fruit shows, what it is and how long it takes.
But without the fruit, one could doubt anything happened.

Now if I articulate this in the way I have this is not saying I believe in works salvation.
That is just distorting both what I am saying and believing to be provocative.

I do see the ex-legalists are very sensitive about obedience. But in truth it is actually
about the heart. If you truly love Christ and His ways why would you not obey?

If you spend time in Gods word it will change you. And it will test you deeply.
I suggest reading 4 chapters a day for 3 weeks, and each time trying to understand
each sentence. You will find probably your view of theology will change. It certainly
reinforced some perspectives and opened up some new ones for me, so I recommend
this especially if you want to contribute to bdf.

 

[Bladerunner]

This article has good information that you can use to see if you have believed in the false teachings of today.

It does no harm to test your theology for truth and may even save you from hell.

Grace vs. False-Grace: Have you fallen for the false-grace message? Five marks of the false-grace doctrine… - John Burton | Conference Speaker | Author

Read it and it said a Bunch about nothing!. "You got to have works to get to Heaven..."

My question is YOU : Who is going outline the WORKS that will get you into Heaven?.

I would guess that depend upon who you are tipping your hat to these days.

My answer: I will continue to listen to and follow the "HOLY SPIRIT" within me. My Faith will remain in Jesus Christ who once said: John 3:15-17.."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would like to make an observation.
People appear to believe as one we are saved in Christ and as a fruit of this we walk in
obedience to Christ. There is discussion about how the fruit shows, what it is and how long it takes.
But without the fruit, one could doubt anything happened.

Now if I articulate this in the way I have this is not saying I believe in works salvation.
That is just distorting both what I am saying and believing to be provocative.

I do see the ex-legalists are very sensitive about obedience. But in truth it is actually
about the heart. If you truly love Christ and His ways why would you not obey?

If you spend time in Gods word it will change you. And it will test you deeply.
I suggest reading 4 chapters a day for 3 weeks, and each time trying to understand
each sentence. You will find probably your view of theology will change. It certainly
reinforced some perspectives and opened up some new ones for me, so I recommend
this especially if you want to contribute to bdf.

Peter you said if a person walks in Jesus they WILL be saved.. Do you stand by this statement or do you not?

Your making (as written) walking with Christ a PREREQUISITE for salvation. ie, salvation is earned by walking. so how else would you expect someone to repeat what you are saying?

How about state it as fact right here and right now. You can get rid of all the confusion by just answering these questions.

1. Can a believer (true) not have any works?
2. Can a believer, who is saved, and has eternal life, If they stop doing works. lose salvation?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 statements concerning waling in the ways of God are being promoted here on CC.

1. Repent and have faith in God (trust) and you will be saved, And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways.

2. Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved


Both of these statements are not the same,, Who can tell the difference? and why?

 

[PeterJens]

There are no scriptures that say believers in Christ that are joined as one spirit with the Lord - that they become un-joined. It's a ploy from the enemy and it is a religion.

This is simply not true. The seed that sprouts but withers through no deep roots, the seed
that gets smothered with seeds, the branch in the vine that cuts itself off and withers and
dies, the son who says yes I will go and does not, the servant who hides their talents and
does nothing.

Now when we establish a link with anything, there is first contact. Then there is locking
in the connection and finally establishing it and making it grow strong.

We all know the first point of contact is hearing the word of God. The next is the word
of God taking root in our souls. The next is faith breaking forth, through repentance and
opening up to Gods working. Finally there is walk in obedience to His word where He is
our Lord and Saviour.

If one was being conservative, the true fruit of faith is only when one starts walking in
obedience. This proves everything else is in place and life has really started to flow.

Another phrase people use, is there any evidence you have any belief at all?
This is a good challenge when we are just passive receivers of teaching without an
participation, it becomes easy to assume a lot.

And to those who are faithful, does it matter when our roots are firmly established
or not. Surely it is much more important to encourage all to go further and deeper
into His glorious riches, Amen.

 

[blue_ladybug]

People, works do not save us. Works do not get us into heaven.. Wake up and smell the truth.. :/

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would like to make an observation.
People appear to believe as one we are saved in Christ and as a fruit of this we walk in
obedience to Christ. There is discussion about how the fruit shows, what it is and how long it takes.
But without the fruit, one could doubt anything happened.

Now if I articulate this in the way I have this is not saying I believe in works salvation.
That is just distorting both what I am saying and believing to be provocative.

I do see the ex-legalists are very sensitive about obedience. But in truth it is actually
about the heart. If you truly love Christ and His ways why would you not obey?

If you spend time in Gods word it will change you. And it will test you deeply.
I suggest reading 4 chapters a day for 3 weeks, and each time trying to understand
each sentence. You will find probably your view of theology will change. It certainly
reinforced some perspectives and opened up some new ones for me, so I recommend
this especially if you want to contribute to bdf.

When you say: If you truly love Christ and His ways, why would you not obey? - this, to me, is similar to saying: if they loved God in the OT times, why did they not just obey Him and walk in His ways and laws? Why couldn't they just obey and then all would have gone well for them? They tried REALLY hard to obey each and every law. And the ones who tried hardest and did the best job of most exactness and care were the ones He most severely chastised! They were the ones trying the hardest to walk in His ways and laws! So why did they get chastised if they were the ones putting the most effort in??

 

[Bladerunner]

Peter you said if a person walks in Jesus they WILL be saved.. Do you stand by this statement or do you not?

Your making (as written) walking with Christ a PREREQUISITE for salvation. ie, salvation is earned by walking. so how else would you expect someone to repeat what you are saying?

How about state it as fact right here and right now. You can get rid of all the confusion by just answering these questions.

1. Can a believer (true) not have any works?
2. Can a believer, who is saved, and has eternal life, If they stop doing works. lose salvation?

While I think we are on the same side here... One does not have to have 'works and Faith' together to get to Heaven....If and when you accept and have faith/believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, repent (acknowledge you are a sinner)and ask for his forgiveness, Then you will receive the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, who resides within you and will guide you down the paths to works. Not everyone is called to be a pastor, missionary or someone who goes door to door, etc. If you will listen to Him (The Holy Spirit) will guide you all the way to heaven's door step.

John 3:16....."For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

 

[wsblind]

2 statements concerning waling in the ways of God are being promoted here on CC.

1. Repent and have faith in God (trust) and you will be saved, And since you are saved, you WILL walk in his ways.

2. Repent, Have faith in God, walk in his ways, and you will be saved


Both of these statements are not the same,, Who can tell the difference? and why?

If I may, there is a third one. To which i hold.

A true believer SHOULD walk in His ways.

It takes a whole lot of His mind (growing in Grace and knowledge)for us to learn to walk in His ways. And hardly a church out there teaches believers how to walk in His ways. They teach the flesh how to be good. So there are many believers who don't walk in His ways, but walk pretty good in their flesh.

It's a life of divine discipline,not glorifying the Lord and loss of eternal rewards, because they SHOULD have walked in His ways.

I believe the majority of believers get their sin cleaned up pretty well, and do good things from their flesh. But don't walk in His ways and SHOULD have. They just walked in their own "good" way.

 

[PeterJens]

EG - God bless you in Christ Jesus and His love that transforms our souls, Amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If I may, there is a third one. To which i hold.

A true believer SHOULD walk in His ways.

It takes a whole lot of His mind (growing in Grace and knowledge)for us to learn to walk in His ways. And hardly a church out there teaches believers how to walk in His ways. They teach the flesh how to be good. So there are many believers who don't walk in His ways, but walk pretty good in their flesh.

It's a life of divine discipline,not glorifying the Lord and loss of eternal rewards, because they SHOULD have walked in His ways.

I believe the majority of believers get their sin cleaned up pretty well, and do good things from their flesh. But don't walk in His ways and SHOULD have. They just walked in their own "good" way.

I think this is where the confusion comes in

One must define what "walk in his ways" means..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG - God bless you in Christ Jesus and His love that transforms our souls, Amen

Thanks, And may God Bless you also.

Now. do you have an answer so we can settle this argument? And people can see what is really going on here. Whether i am misrepresenting you, or I am misunderstanding you or both or neither?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I think this is where the confusion comes in

One must define what "walk in his ways" means..

Abiding in Him, walking in the Spirit so you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, (like murdering men in your heart in anger, because no murderer will enter heaven). So if we abide in Him, we will not sin, we will be fruitful instead of cut off for bearing no fruit.

 

[wsblind]

I think this is where the confusion comes in

One must define what "walk in his ways" means..

4 commands for the believer.....and it takes a lot of bible doctrine to operate in them or a lot of grace and knowledge to truly operate this way.

Do not grieve the Spirit.

Do not quench the Spirit.

Walk in the Spirit.

Be filled with the Spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

When you say: If you truly love Christ and His ways, why would you not obey? - this, to me, is similar to saying: if they loved God in the OT times, why did they not just obey Him and walk in His ways and laws? Why couldn't they just obey and then all would have gone well for them? They tried REALLY hard to obey each and every law. And the ones who tried hardest and did the best job of most exactness and care were the ones He most severely chastised! They were the ones trying the hardest to walk in His ways and laws! So why did they get chastised if they were the ones putting the most effort in??

Here we have layers within layers. Those who truly sought God and walked in His ways
did find Him. But Israel as a whole cared very little for God except at times of crisis and
when the leadership was right.

I read an argument that it took till the pharisees to truly fulfill the expectations of the law
and its promise, except even then they missed the heart of love and truth.

So I get the impression a few saw God plainly, but Gods heart remained hidden to most.
Jesus and the cross changed this, and made love and God very accessible, profound and
in your face. So actually walking with God and in His ways requires truly seeing God and
being in love with Him, so it is an outflow of ones heart.

So here is the dilemma. When you learn to love God, or fall in love with Him which is the
walk, then you obey because that is who you have become. But finding this place is a
walk in itself, a discovery of who we are and who God is, where we are in our lives, what
our goals and focus is. Now that is a lot that shifts slowly over time, often without us
realising it.

And without Christ, bringing Gods heart to earth so personally, we would not really see or
know our King. Listen to the songs of praise and love we sing now that move our hearts,
that touch us deep in our souls. This was not what you see often coming out of the
intimacy of the old covenant, though it is there, but more as a shadow.

This is more like heaven on earth. In the 70's I went to a big charismatic meeting when
singing in the spirit was new. The whole congregation lifted in something that sounded
like angels praising the Lord. This is the power of the Holy Spirit revealed, when people
just submit and let Him speak. But as with so many blessings, hearts grow cold, expectations
dim, sin creeps in and divisions ensue. But this is a taste of what can be if as a body we
set alight the flame of the Spirit in our midst, and let Him move and work.

 

[wsblind]

Abiding in Him, walking in the Spirit so you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, (like murdering men in your heart in anger, because no murderer will enter heaven). So if we abide in Him, we will not sin, we will be fruitful instead of cut off for bearing no fruit.

For most of us our problem isn't sin. It's evil. The lust of the flesh also is being righteous on my own. Being good apart from God.

Like, " Thank God I am not a sinner like him!"

 

[PeterJens]

Thanks, And may God Bless you also.

Now. do you have an answer so we can settle this argument? And people can see what is really going on here. Whether i am misrepresenting you, or I am misunderstanding you or both or neither?

EG - this has never been an argument, it is an experience, God finding us.

When you find you love someone, you do not ask, do I love them or have I created
this love to prove I love them. Do I buy flowers or want to spend time with them
because I want to prove something is happening or it has happened?

Whatever you or I do, we are lost if we do not love Christ, and no one can imagine
or make up this love. You either do love Him or you do not. And I love Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Here we have layers within layers. Those who truly sought God and walked in His ways
did find Him. But Israel as a whole cared very little for God except at times of crisis and
when the leadership was right.

I read an argument that it took till the pharisees to truly fulfill the expectations of the law
and its promise, except even then they missed the heart of love and truth.

So I get the impression a few saw God plainly, but Gods heart remained hidden to most.
Jesus and the cross changed this, and made love and God very accessible, profound and
in your face. So actually walking with God and in His ways requires truly seeing God and
being in love with Him, so it is an outflow of ones heart.

So here is the dilemma. When you learn to love God, or fall in love with Him which is the
walk, then you obey because that is who you have become. But finding this place is a
walk in itself, a discovery of who we are and who God is, where we are in our lives, what
our goals and focus is. Now that is a lot that shifts slowly over time, often without us
realising it.

And without Christ, bringing Gods heart to earth so personally, we would not really see or
know our King. Listen to the songs of praise and love we sing now that move our hearts,
that touch us deep in our souls. This was not what you see often coming out of the
intimacy of the old covenant, though it is there, but more as a shadow.

This is more like heaven on earth. In the 70's I went to a big charismatic meeting when
singing in the spirit was new. The whole congregation lifted in something that sounded
like angels praising the Lord. This is the power of the Holy Spirit revealed, when people
just submit and let Him speak. But as with so many blessings, hearts grow cold, expectations
dim, sin creeps in and divisions ensue. But this is a taste of what can be if as a body we
set alight the flame of the Spirit in our midst, and let Him move and work.

So would you say that the point in which they got it wrong was that they tried to obey outwardly but kept their hearts from Him? That they didn't understand that He wanted their hearts? Like when Jesus said that anger in your heart is murder, they didn't understand inner purity of heart? They only obeyed outwardly and not clear into the heart?