Healing through the Son

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
How do you, who oppose healing as a promise, reconcile your belief system that healing is not guaranteed with people in the Bible having faith to be healed? You're telling me that I can't have faith to be healed because it isn't a promise, but this is contradictory to scripture where people had faith to be healed (and were healed).

You have an apparent contradiction that, when considered, defeats your argument because it goes contrary to God's word.

If we cannot expect to be healed (because, according to you, we have no promises, guarantee, His word, etc) then how is it even possible to follow a biblical precedent of having faith in order to be healed?
its all about the works of God, and if that work has to do with not healing, then it is so.

John 9
1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God …

2 Cor 11
23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was …

2 Cor 12
9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults,
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,051
304
83
28
its all about the works of God, and if that work has to do with not healing, then it is so.

John 9
1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God …

2 Cor 11
23 Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. 24 Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one. 25 Three times I was …

2 Cor 12
9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults,
Paul's thorn in the flesh was addressed in previous posts. To call it a sickness or physical disability would be ignoring the context, and surrounding verses that clearly define what it was. "A messenger of satan" it says, and messenger in the Greek means "angelos" which is an angel. That (fallen) angel buffeted the apostle Paul (that was its purpose), and buffeting has a connotation of beatings, harsh treatment, and so on. In other words persecution.

As for the works of God, they still go on today (as many of you attest to).
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,051
304
83
28
I answered the question of the Apostle Paul's thorn in the flesh in my thread (on faith and healing).

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/165420-what-basis-our-faith.html

Paul's thorn in the flesh wasn't physical (a sickness), the verse itself says it.

2 Corinthians 12:7-8 King James Version (KJV)

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

There are a few things to notice about the thorn in the flesh.

1. The messenger of satan.
2. "To buffet me"
3. Paul wanted it to depart from him.

First and foremost, we understand that the context and verse do not say that it was a physical sickness. It says that it, the thorn in flesh (read as like someone being a pain in the neck), was a messenger of satan. In the Greek "messenger" means angelos (
http://biblehub.com/greek/angelos_32.htm ). In other words, Paul's thorn in the flesh was a fallen angel.

Now, what did this fallen angel do to Paul? It reads that it buffeted him. What does Paul mean that the thorn in the flesh was sent to buffet him?

If you look up the Greek for buffet in this verse it means "kolaphizo." Here are some examples...

Matthew 26:67 V-AIA-3P
GRK: αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐκολάφισαν αὐτόν οἱ
NAS: in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others
KJV: face, and buffeted him; and
INT: of him and struck him others

Mark 14:65 V-PNA
GRK: πρόσωπον καὶ κολαφίζειν αὐτὸν καὶ
NAS: at Him, and to blindfold Him, and to beat Him with their fists, and to say
KJV: face, and to buffet him, and
INT: face and to strike him and

1 Corinthians 4:11 V-PIM/P-1P
GRK: γυμνιτεύομεν καὶ κολαφιζόμεθα καὶ ἀστατοῦμεν
NAS: and are poorly clothed, and are roughly treated, and are homeless;
KJV: and are buffeted, and
INT: are naked and are struck and wander without a home

2 Corinthians 12:7 V-PSA-3S
GRK: ἵνα με κολαφίζῃ ἵνα μὴ
NAS: of Satan to torment me -- to keep
KJV: of Satan to buffet me, lest
INT: that me he might torment that not

1 Peter 2:20 V-PPM/P-NMP
GRK: ἁμαρτάνοντες καὶ κολαφιζόμενοι ὑπομενεῖτε ἀλλ'
NAS: when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure
KJV: when ye be buffeted for your faults,
INT: sinning and being struck you endure it but

Notice in context all of these examples are in essence persecution. Physical beatings, being harshly treated, struck, etc. What do we know of Paul in relation to persecution? He got stoned! So this thorn in the flesh, a fallen angel, buffeted Paul through persecution. It seems that it added difficulty to His mission (of preaching the Gospel) and yet to keep him humble, to not glory in himself due to revelations, this thorn in the flesh was given to him.

The third point is that the Apostle Paul wanted this fallen angel to depart from him! The use of the word depart in relation to the thorn in the flesh, to me at least, is an interesting word choice. He wanted it to leave. He doesn't use some word as to be healed, but for something to leave.

Over all, and given the context of the passage the thorn is clearly shown to be a fallen angel (and not a sickness), and it persecuted him, adding difficulty to his task which goes in line with the verse that follows.

2 Corinthians 12:10 King James Version (KJV)

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

This all has to do with suffering for Christ's sake, as an apostle of God sent to preach the Gospel. This has nothing to do with a physical sickness (that he supposedly had) but persecution for sharing the Gospel.
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
Paul's thorn in the flesh was addressed in previous posts. To call it a sickness or physical disability would be ignoring the context, and surrounding verses that clearly define what it was. "A messenger of satan" it says, and messenger in the Greek means "angelos" which is an angel. That (fallen) angel buffeted the apostle Paul (that was its purpose), and buffeting has a connotation of beatings, harsh treatment, and so on. In other words persecution.

As for the works of God, they still go on today (as many of you attest to).
we all were born with a thorn in this fallen world, the danger is telling someone who is a quadriplegic who got blind sided as they were coming home from church, hit by another car who ran a red light, that if they would only have enough faith they be healed.

His grace is enough and we don't know the reason why God wouldn't healed a believer, to the true believer it doesn't matter if the healing happens or not.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,051
304
83
28
we all were born with a thorn in this fallen world, the danger is telling someone who is a quadriplegic who got blind sided as they were coming home from church, hit by another car who ran a red light, that if they would only have enough faith they be healed.

His grace is enough and we don't know the reason why God wouldn't healed a believer, to the true believer it doesn't matter if the healing happens or not.
Jesus healed the lame. His disciples too told them to rise up and walk. They got up! Why would you not encourage them with these stories, and allow their faith to rise up and bring healing?

Art Sanborn: Faith That Restored a Quadriplegic | CBN.com

https://www.charismanews.com/world/40514-quadripalegic-walks-again-after-crying-jesus-jesus-jesus
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
Jesus healed the lame. His disciples too told them to rise up and walk. They got up! Why would you not encourage them with these stories, and allow their faith to rise up and bring healing?

Art Sanborn: Faith That Restored a Quadriplegic | CBN.com

https://www.charismanews.com/world/40514-quadripalegic-walks-again-after-crying-jesus-jesus-jesus
Nothing wrong with encouragement but if the quadriplegic doesn't suddenly start walking what would you say to them, what would be your reason why the healing didn't happened?
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
Some will suffer for being a follower, Jesus suffered on the cross, so will some of his followers.
like the quadriplegic who got hit by a drunk driver, after the accident the person who caused harm to another repented and stopped drinking and found Christ. Victory of some through the suffering of others happens.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
1,260
99
48
Nobody's trying to steal any ones faith here. Unbelievable that anyone would come on here and even make those accusations.

1. Healing is not in the atonement...Anyone who says that it is, is reading it with a fleshly eye and mind.


2. Nobody knows for sure what Paul's thorn in the flesh or what the messenger from Satan was...To say anything else about that is pure speculation.

3. Who's faith raised Lazarus from the dead...It wasn't Lazarus' faith because he was already dead...It wasn't his sisters' faith either because what did they say... Lord if you would have been here he wouldn't have died...so apparently they had no faith that he would raise him from the dead. So it must have been the Lord's will and Lazarus was the only one in the grave yard that came back that day. And again apparently that was the Lord's will.

4. Not sure what some folks have against praying for the Lord's will either. Jesus didn't want to suffer either, but was obedient unto death. He prayed that God would let his cup pass if it be his will. What did he pray... not my will but your will be done).

Peter didn't want him to suffer and die either, but Jesus rebuked him and What did Jesus say to him...Matt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

So what is wrong with praying that God's will be done. We have to get our mind set on things above and align our will with God's will. God knows what we all need and works it all to the good for those that he has called whether it be healing or not.

So yeah God heals and we can have faith in that but we better get our minds set on things above and and pray just like Jesus told us to do...
[h=1]Matthew 6:9-13 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Give us this day our daily bread.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.[/FONT]
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,051
304
83
28
Nothing wrong with encouragement but if the quadriplegic doesn't suddenly start walking what would you say to them, what would be your reason why the healing didn't happened?
Such a mindset is self-defeating. If I accept that the healing didn't happen in my mind, then I no longer believe for it, have faith for it, and am in doubt by my own confession. I would encourage them to look to Jesus, have faith, and believe.

Of greater importance, it might be that I would need to take responsibility for my lack of faith and belief in the power of God and my limited thinking. I am not trying to have the sick person feel as a victim and me blaming them, but together we can come to an understanding what it is we believe (or don't believe) and see why the healing hasn't yet manifested (maybe it'll be over time like with the man in the link I shared).

If we do not believe it is God's will to heal us, we cannot have faith for healing. Only hope, praying God has mercy. Which is fine to the degree that one is willing to be subject to their sickness. God is merciful. However, to believe it is God's will to heal puts us in a place of faith that is equipped for its (healing's) reception.
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
Such a mindset is self-defeating. If I accept that the healing didn't happen in my mind, then I no longer believe for it, have faith for it, and am in doubt by my own confession. I would encourage them to look to Jesus, have faith, and believe.

Of greater importance, it might be that I would need to take responsibility for my lack of faith and belief in the power of God and my limited thinking. I am not trying to have the sick person feel as a victim and me blaming them, but together we can come to an understanding what it is we believe (or don't believe) and see why the healing hasn't yet manifested (maybe it'll be over time like with the man in the link I shared).

If we do not believe it is God's will to heal us, we cannot have faith for healing. Only hope, praying God has mercy. Which is fine to the degree that one is willing to be subject to their sickness. God is merciful. However, to believe it is God's will to heal puts us in a place of faith that is equipped for its (healing's) reception.
I like your answer and agree we shouldn't make others feel like a victim or have them blaming others, one thing you said that struck me is the statement about limited thinking. Us humans will always be limited to knowing exactly what God's will is in such scenario's as why some are not healed and others are, but like you said we must keep the faith and hope always no matter the outcome because in the end it is not our will that matters but God's will and His reasons. I do believe God can and will heal people but that is on His terms not mine or other people's terms.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,051
304
83
28
I like your answer and agree we shouldn't make others feel like a victim or have them blaming others, one thing you said that struck me is the statement about limited thinking. Us humans will always be limited to knowing exactly what God's will is in such scenario's as why some are not healed and others are, but like you said we must keep the faith and hope always no matter the outcome because in the end it is not our will that matters but God's will and His reasons. I do believe God can and will heal people but that is on His terms not mine or other people's terms.
The only caveat to healing, in my understanding, is timing. People can have faith for something, but God is sovereign when it comes to where, when, how, and why someone is healed. It glorifies God and through such healing and depending upon the audience it can bring people to Christ or even to a faith that also is receptive to healing.

Even in death timing is evident. Its not that the person didn't have an adequate faith to be healed, it was just their time to be with the Lord. Or as I like to say, "Some people have faith to walk on water, but God didn't call them out on to the water." Their faith was sufficient but God is sovereign.

This is how I perceive things, anyhow. Experience, which we have to be careful with, tells me this as people will often wait upon the Lord to fulfill His promises. They persevere, believe, and in time, receive that which He is willing to give.
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
221
63
Jesus promised us persecution not sickness. Persecution happens from people wrongly attacking us, just like what happened to Jesus. Being martyred because of persecution and dying from sickness isn’t the same thing.
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
Jesus promised us persecution not sickness. Persecution happens from people wrongly attacking us, just like what happened to Jesus. Being martyred because of persecution and dying from sickness isn’t the same thing.
Reminds me of a song, :)

[video=youtube;VZys3E67eDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZys3E67eDk[/video]
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,051
304
83
28
The only caveat to healing, in my understanding, is timing. People can have faith for something, but God is sovereign when it comes to where, when, how, and why someone is healed. It glorifies God and through such healing and depending upon the audience it can bring people to Christ or even to a faith that also is receptive to healing.

Even in death timing is evident. Its not that the person didn't have an adequate faith to be healed, it was just their time to be with the Lord. Or as I like to say, "Some people have faith to walk on water, but God didn't call them out on to the water." Their faith was sufficient but God is sovereign.

This is how I perceive things, anyhow. Experience, which we have to be careful with, tells me this as people will often wait upon the Lord to fulfill His promises. They persevere, believe, and in time, receive that which He is willing to give.
This isn't an excuse to not believe for healing though, if anything it means to persevere and continue to pray for it! One thing that happened to me in the past, praying for someone's pain to go away, was that I prayed once and a little improvement to none happened and then the Lord told me to pray again. I did. Immediately all of their pain subsided.

Sometimes we just need to persevere, pray some more, push through and see God's work.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
1,260
99
48
Let me try to clarify what I was trying to say...No Jesus didn't die of sickness that's not the point I was trying to make there. The point is we need to pray the Lord's will be done no matter what it is because God knows best.

I've known people who came to God through sickness. Heard them testify that if it had not been for the sickness they would have never called upon the Lord. Now some were healed, some were not and went to their grave with their sickness, and now they are rejoicing in Heaven today. So what I'm trying to say is God knows what's best for all of us. He works all things for our good.

I'm not saying not to pray for healing but that we should Pray...Lord we have faith and know that you can heal and we believe this, but let your will be done. God knows what's best.

And I know God didn't promise we'd have sickness, but the only place I can see where he promised there would be no sickness is in heaven. Yes, God heals but it is according to his will. We should have faith and pray for his will to be done in all things.
 

LPT

Senior Member
Dec 24, 2017
612
57
28
50
Let me try to clarify what I was trying to say...No Jesus didn't die of sickness that's not the point I was trying to make there. The point is we need to pray the Lord's will be done no matter what it is because God knows best.

I've known people who came to God through sickness. Heard them testify that if it had not been for the sickness they would have never called upon the Lord. Now some were healed, some were not and went to their grave with their sickness, and now they are rejoicing in Heaven today. So what I'm trying to say is God knows what's best for all of us. He works all things for our good.

I'm not saying not to pray for healing but that we should Pray...Lord we have faith and know that you can heal and we believe this, but let your will be done. God knows what's best.

And I know God didn't promise we'd have sickness, but the only place I can see where he promised there would be no sickness is in heaven. Yes, God heals but it is according to his will. We should have faith and pray for his will to be done in all things.
Amen, and I believe this is what He says in revelations 21:4


Rev 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,092
158
63
I totally get your frustration, but try to avoid snapping back at someone who cast stones at you. I am speaking to myself here too. It is carnal nature to lash out but it is our Savior's example to accept persecution. Jesus didn't say from where it would come. I think it is unfortunate more people don't read the Book of Acts and understand the authority of Jesus Christ is the same now as it was then. It is a form of unbelief and a sin, which Jesus was repeatedly frustrated with his disciples.

The examples of healing are numerous right now, as I am sure you understand. There is so much emotion entangled in this subject and some may be exponentially affected by non-healing. Many associate a death of a loved one as God's will to take them. I certainly don't want to kick anyone when they are down, but praying passively is not praying with faith and one shouldn't expect results. "If it's your will" prayers are exactly that, passive.

I pray that others will see the amazing wonders God has given us with the death and resurrection of His Son. With this understanding, faith and trust take a whole other dimension. God is Good!

Totally agree about "snapping" at people. I have personally made it a goal to not do that here on CC and try to interact with each person properly as I'm able. When we come on here we cannot take each and every person and each and every situation about healing and give an answer., it's impossible. We can't be thoroughly sympathetic it's impossible.

Some people want to be heard and discussed about why they were not healed and why they don't believe. That is not the topic on these forums unless we start threads entitled "ALL ABOUT ME AND MY PROBLEMS" It's not about us. It's about Jesus and what He has done for each one of us personally and we find that as we each "personally" grow and be nurtured in Him. We cannot expect to be 'thoroughly nurtured' here on a forum. If some believe I'm not showing enough sympathy to each individual here that is a problem they need to come to grips with.

It's impossible to be on a forum like this and discuss each of our own experiences at length. We can share our hearts even but don't expect your heart OR experiences to be given the importance that Jesus gives them and you. And it's wrong to accuse those who don't do it as being mean or kicking them when they are down.

We have no ability to know everyone here personally or to pray for each one personally. But as a sister in Christ I can point to the One who can. Being "passive" if that is what you want to call it is just part of being (on line) We don't know one another. And unless we get to know each other personally apart from a thread started on a forum., that fact remains.

And equally we cannot try and guess-ti-mate who a person really is here on the forums and why a person says or does what they do with any real true ability or authority. Yet many Christians here try to do exactly that and take authority that is not theirs to take., Using gossip and tearing down people they know nothing about except that they disagree about a Bible doctrine.

We can and should share what we know the Bible says and try to meet on some middle ground together. But we cannot take the road of getting angry and letting all that anger vent in behavior that is childish amounting to kiddie fighting and tantrums and hissyfits.

The dangerous thing about gossip is when it goes on for a while it begins being taken as the truth. Making a lie into a truth is confusion and doesn't come from the Holy Spirit. No wonder gossip and slander are major problems in God's eyes and should not be said of any of us believers.
 
Last edited:

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
1,986
221
63
The day after my mom died from Cancer the hospice worker told me, what the enemy meant for evil God would use for good. And I believed her. I gave up drinking, drugs, and everything outside of the Bible because I believed God’s ways were better than my own. I still believe the enemy comes to kill, but God comes to bring life abundantly. And He did use her death for good. But I don’t believe it was His Will for her or me. But He will and is continually redeeming it all.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
I totally get your frustration, but try to avoid snapping back at someone who cast stones at you. I am speaking to myself here too. It is carnal nature to lash out but it is our Savior's example to accept persecution. Jesus didn't say from where it would come. I think it is unfortunate more people don't read the Book of Acts and understand the authority of Jesus Christ is the same now as it was then. It is a form of unbelief and a sin, which Jesus was repeatedly frustrated with his disciples.

The examples of healing are numerous right now, as I am sure you understand. There is so much emotion entangled in this subject and some may be exponentially affected by non-healing. Many associate a death of a loved one as God's will to take them. I certainly don't want to kick anyone when they are down, but praying passively is not praying with faith and one shouldn't expect results. "If it's your will" prayers are exactly that, passive.

I pray that others will see the amazing wonders God has given us with the death and resurrection of His Son. With this understanding, faith and trust take a whole other dimension. God is Good!
I totally get joaniemarie's frustration, but her snapping at me (your term) has nothing to do with someone "casting stones" at her. Your labeling her as a persecuted person is rather over the top. Undoubting, you are correct Jesus was persecuted but joaniemarie most certainly is not. It is unfortunate that more people don't read the Book of Acts and understand the physical supernatural nature of those miracles in contrast to the mundane nature of today's so-called miracles. Jesus desired faith without sight, this truth is the same now as it was then. Calling the mundane miraculous is a form of unbelief and a sin.

The lack of examples of physical supernatural healings is a subject that most wish to avoid, as I am sure most understand. There is so much emotion entangled in this subject and some will not even entertain the thought of faith without sight. Many associate acts and promises given in the Bible as meant for all times, I certainly don't want to kick anyone when they are down, but claiming a promise meant for another person or time holds no weight if the promise was not meant for them or now. Proclaiming "Jesus is the same yesterday and today" does not change this.

I pray that we can gain the blessings that come from not seeing but still believing. John 20:29