Healing through the Son

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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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I didn't read undoubting's post as my being persecuted as much as a admonishment to not snap at people and I told him I do not do that.

As far as the "mundane" things of life I've discovered most of them have amazing miracles going on in each one of them if I only look. My dog remaining healthy is a major miracle to me. My home and the ability to live here is a major miracle to me. Each day has in it many miracles so I speak for myself not you or anyone else here.

As far as your view on healing you are welcome to it. I'm not bothered by your different interpretations and the way you believe. And I'm welcome to my learning about what healing means in the atonement. I'm willing and able to post my views as I have been learning as well as anyone else who sees it differently OR the same.

I've never seen Jesus with my physical eyes but I believe in Him. I've not seen the Holy Spirit but I believe in Him. I've not seen God the Father yet but I believe.

And because of faith., I've also seen God's hand in my life by way of salvation and leading and healing on so many places in my life it's too many and too personal to mention here on a chat site. But all of them are none the less REAL despite whether people here believe me or not. That is the kind of faith Jesus wants us to have in Him and His care of us and His love for us. And I'd encourage any and all of us here to enter in to that kind of faith that sees the Spirit working in their lives daily. That is how wonderful our loving God is. He knows we have need of encouragement and He gives it in a million different ways. :)



John 20:29
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and [SUP][a][/SUP]to be envied are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and trusted and relied on Me.
 
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wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Who did I say opposes healing? Where did I say they oppose healing? I said that they oppose "healing as a promise" or as a guarantee (as others have stated). Most of you guys believe God still heals today. I am just trying to articulate things in such a way that allows you to pause for a moment and see the apparent contradiction of such a belief system (that healing isn't a promise, guarantee, God's word, etc).

In respect to diet, exercise, and living just right that is a matter of caring for our temple (of which I am failing badly, lol). God can heal someone of lung cancer, for example, but if they just pick up another pack of cigarettes from the store they are repeating the cycle. Not saying God won't heal them again, but it goes along with "faith without works is dead" premise.
Ben, in contradiction to the time while Jesus walked on earth and heals who came to him, the people which belives he can heal today do not expierience healing. This is the different! Jesus heales today, but not all. If he wouls have promissed it for today and the time after he left earth. All sick people which came to him would be healed. But this not happend. So Jesus breakes his promisse ore you follow a false teaching. Ore would you say this still sick people lacking on faith? And I believe that the Lord never breakes his promises.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Ben, in contradiction to the time while Jesus walked on earth and heals who came to him, the people which belives he can heal today do not expierience healing. This is the different! Jesus heales today, but not all. If he wouls have promissed it for today and the time after he left earth. All sick people which came to him would be healed. But this not happend. So Jesus breakes his promisse ore you follow a false teaching. Ore would you say this still sick people lacking on faith? And I believe that the Lord never breakes his promises.
God is faithful to His word. God is not a liar, and so He doesn't break promises.

I would say that a proper understanding on healing, and God's will are essential in receiving and administering healing (pertaining to your question about sick individuals). If you pay attention to the words of a person you can tell whether they truly believe God will (as opposed to can or might) heal them.

Not that they don't have enough faith, but they through incorrect doctrine(s) or ignorance to true doctrine have hindered their faith from being utilized. For example, they believe their sickness is a punishment from God, or a means of chastisement. For them to seek healing in this case would go contrary to His, perceived, will. A hindrance to faith, for if they do not believe it is God's will to heal them, faith is nullified (since He is teaching them a lesson...).

You can see from this one example that incorrect doctrine (even deception) doesn't permit people to have faith in the first place. It, false doctrine, stops faith in its tracks. If your belief system denies that it is God's will to heal you, be it due to punishment, chastisement, no promise for healing, no guarantee, or what have you, faith is void. There is nothing to have faith in, but at the very least people may hope.

I say hope, because they can still depend upon God's present mercy as opposed to utilizing faith in the obtainment of God's promises. He is merciful. Jesus picked up Peter when he started sinking, did He not? That is also a key difference of proper understanding and correct doctrine (on healing and God's will) as opposed to not believing (properly). With one you will seek and find, ask and receive, and knock and the door will be opened to you. Within the other is no certainty found, no assurance given, and no faith to put forth towards God (since His will, according to the doctrine, is unknown).

Belief, expectation, and faith are all ingredients in what we experience in life (including God's mercy to our lack there of). When we believe falsely, or are deceived, this can and does put up a hindrance to faith (even our very relationship with God). This is why the truth of scripture over experience is of importance, because if you believe His word your circumstances will bend to His will.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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God is faithful to His word. God is not a liar, and so He doesn't break promises.

I would say that a proper understanding on healing, and God's will are essential in receiving and administering healing (pertaining to your question about sick individuals). If you pay attention to the words of a person you can tell whether they truly believe God will (as opposed to can or might) heal them.

Not that they don't have enough faith, but they through incorrect doctrine(s) or ignorance to true doctrine have hindered their faith from being utilized. For example, they believe their sickness is a punishment from God, or a means of chastisement. For them to seek healing in this case would go contrary to His, perceived, will. A hindrance to faith, for if they do not believe it is God's will to heal them, faith is nullified (since He is teaching them a lesson...).

You can see from this one example that incorrect doctrine (even deception) doesn't permit people to have faith in the first place. It, false doctrine, stops faith in its tracks. If your belief system denies that it is God's will to heal you, be it due to punishment, chastisement, no promise for healing, no guarantee, or what have you, faith is void. There is nothing to have faith in, but at the very least people may hope.

I say hope, because they can still depend upon God's present mercy as opposed to utilizing faith in the obtainment of God's promises. He is merciful. Jesus picked up Peter when he started sinking, did He not? That is also a key difference of proper understanding and correct doctrine (on healing and God's will) as opposed to not believing (properly). With one you will seek and find, ask and receive, and knock and the door will be opened to you. Within the other is no certainty found, no assurance given, and no faith to put forth towards God (since His will, according to the doctrine, is unknown).

Belief, expectation, and faith are all ingredients in what we experience in life (including God's mercy to our lack there of). When we believe falsely, or are deceived, this can and does put up a hindrance to faith (even our very relationship with God). This is why the truth of scripture over experience is of importance, because if you believe His word your circumstances will bend to His will.
If God is faithful and hold his promisses, then the teaching about phydical healing in the atonement is false. Ben, I dont know where you live. I know enough believers which suffering under sicknesses and desease without getting healed. According your claim this is not possible. Because Jesus has already healed them. So as in the days while he was on earth the sick people directly was healed.
How many believers leaving so called healing services still sick? How many believers remain sick after prayer?
Sorry, the reality proof that your teaching about the atonement is wrong.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
Who did I say opposes healing? Where did I say they oppose healing? I said that they oppose "healing as a promise" or as a guarantee (as others have stated). Most of you guys believe God still heals today. I am just trying to articulate things in such a way that allows you to pause for a moment and see the apparent contradiction of such a belief system (that healing isn't a promise, guarantee, God's word, etc).

In respect to diet, exercise, and living just right that is a matter of caring for our temple (of which I am failing badly, lol). God can heal someone of lung cancer, for example, but if they just pick up another pack of cigarettes from the store they are repeating the cycle. Not saying God won't heal them again, but it goes along with "faith without works is dead" premise.
Okay, you believe healing is a guarantee promise just as long as Moni eats well, takes care of his temple, blah blah blah blah. And you believe God guarantees healing except in the case of Angela, Bill, me, etc. etc. etc.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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If God is faithful and hold his promisses, then the teaching about phydical healing in the atonement is false. Ben, I dont know where you live. I know enough believers which suffering under sicknesses and desease without getting healed. According your claim this is not possible. Because Jesus has already healed them. So as in the days while he was on earth the sick people directly was healed.
How many believers leaving so called healing services still sick? How many believers remain sick after prayer?
Sorry, the reality proof that your teaching about the atonement is wrong.
You are putting experience over God's word, circumstantial evidence above the truth. Subjective reality based upon one's own beliefs as the deciding factor instead of holding true to His word. What you are saying is like this.

"Peter, Jesus did not command you to walk on the water, otherwise you wouldn't have sank." Oh, but He did tell Peter to walk on the water, but he doubted, allowed fear to override the truth (commandment) and began to sink. Just because people do not experience certain promises of God in their life is not an indication that God is unfaithful or it really isn't a promise. Rather it is a call to self-examination, of what one believes (and believes for).
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Okay, you believe healing is a guarantee promise just as long as Moni eats well, takes care of his temple, blah blah blah blah. And you believe God guarantees healing except in the case of Angela, Bill, me, etc. etc. etc.
Don't put the cart before the horse. Such maintenance would follow the healing, as in some cases the healing is only required due to life style choices. My father attended a church where a woman would go out into the world, have intercourse, catch an STD, and come back Sunday only to be healed, and do this again and again. It was her life style that caused the problem, and she could resolve it by making different decisions even though God remained merciful.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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So if God DOES heal all, then why didn't He heal Happyface's husband? Why didn't He heal Frank (achildofGod)? Why has He not healed me, or Lynn, or Angela, or anyone else here? In case you're unaware, Happy's hubby and Frank are both deceased now. Where was their healing when they needed it? :/

If God DID heal everyone today, in a one time shot, we would be immortals living in a mortal, fallen world that is headed to hell in a hand basket. :/
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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I highly doubt it was God doing the healing over and over in that scenario. Sounds more like penicillin was involved there...Just saying...:rolleyes:
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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You are putting experience over God's word, circumstantial evidence above the truth. Subjective reality based upon one's own beliefs as the deciding factor instead of holding true to His word. What you are saying is like this.

"Peter, Jesus did not command you to walk on the water, otherwise you wouldn't have sank." Oh, but He did tell Peter to walk on the water, but he doubted, allowed fear to override the truth (commandment) and began to sink. Just because people do not experience certain promises of God in their life is not an indication that God is unfaithful or it really isn't a promise. Rather it is a call to self-examination, of what one believes (and believes for).
Ben, then show me the proof for your claim. So long you are cant do it, i hold your teaching for wrong and not from God. Why somebody should pray, if he believe not, expect not, have no faith, that God will hear and help?
Do you think that qith the right method and teaching you can manipulate God to do what you want?
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Ben, by your logic, if one doesn't have enough faith, or doesn't believe hard enough that they'll be healed, then God says "screw you, I'm not healing you because you have too little faith". :/

The cold hard truth that you and JM refuse to acknowledge is, God DOES NOT heal ALL people. No matter how strong their faith or belief is. If He did, Frank would still be alive, as would Happy and Joidevivre's spouses, and anyone else here who was sick and died.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
1,542
34
48
You are putting experience over God's word, circumstantial evidence above the truth. Subjective reality based upon one's own beliefs as the deciding factor instead of holding true to His word. What you are saying is like this.

"Peter, Jesus did not command you to walk on the water, otherwise you wouldn't have sank." Oh, but He did tell Peter to walk on the water, but he doubted, allowed fear to override the truth (commandment) and began to sink. Just because people do not experience certain promises of God in their life is not an indication that God is unfaithful or it really isn't a promise. Rather it is a call to self-examination, of what one believes (and believes for).
One more question. All people which Jesus healed, do you think the died at old age and not because of any deaseases ore sick organs?
John 20, 30 says clear why Jesus healed.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Ben, then show me the proof for your claim. So long you are cant do it, i hold your teaching for wrong and not from God. Why somebody should pray, if he believe not, expect not, have no faith, that God will hear and help?
Do you think that qith the right method and teaching you can manipulate God to do what you want?
We do not manipulate God, we operate in accordance with His revealed will. You cannot administer healing, have faith for healing, make the prayer of faith that shall save the sick, or go about any faith related task without His word. His word created all that surrounds you, and He sustains it. The heavens, the Earth, and all of creation. When you understand His word, His will, faith can be. It can exist.

It is not teaching how we can manipulate God. It is teaching people to have faith in God, and He will reveal Himself to be faithful.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Ben, by your logic, if one doesn't have enough faith, or doesn't believe hard enough that they'll be healed, then God says "screw you, I'm not healing you because you have too little faith". :/

The cold hard truth that you and JM refuse to acknowledge is, God DOES NOT heal ALL people. No matter how strong their faith or belief is. If He did, Frank would still be alive, as would Happy and Joidevivre's spouses, and anyone else here who was sick and died.
I see it in black and white, not grey. You are placing quantitative values on faith (too much, too little, etc) when all I have said is to "believe." Contrary to your depiction of how you view I am representing God, His response would not be that but rather an encouragement to believe (properly) so that you may have faith in order to receive from Him. It is not that God is withholding His blessings, it is that we have declined them (through unbelief, improper thinking).

Let me, as gently as I can, express this. If a person says that God does not heal all people, they then have permitted a belief system by which God could not heal them. Right? We can agree? So, if God can say no to healing, then one cannot have faith for healing. They can only hope that God smiles upon them. Right? That He would have mercy on them, correct? So how do I under this belief system have any faith whatsoever if I do not believe it is God's will to heal me? I am only left with hope.

So if I am not healed, or someone passes away, my hope was in vain. I submit to God's supposed will. For some, this puts a barrier between them and God, a resentment. He could've healed them, but He didn't is the response. Do you believe all deaths were the will of God? Obviously not, because people have been raised from the dead. We have to then come to grip with reality. There are different options, and yes, one includes our belief system and the other the sovereignty of God. Another includes both (which is the one I subscribe to).

Our beliefs about God, towards God, affect our relationship with Him and what we receive from Him. A promise is to be believed in. If there is no promise, no guarantee, no will revealed, then there is no faith. Yet also we must submit to God's sovereignty when a person passes away (because it was just their time). It is extremely sad, even Jesus wept when death happened (Lazarus). For us on the other hand, believers, there is at the least some part of it a joy for the one that passes away is now with the Lord. We may think fondly upon the times we shared with them, and be grateful to God, that they now rest in His presence.

Proper beliefs and the sovereignty of God.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Okay, let's say for the sake of argument, God just healed everyone in the whole world. At this very second, we are now immortals in a mortal world.

Newsflash: the above is unattainable because immortals CANNOT exist in an evil, mortal world.

How do you believe "properly"? Belief is belief, frickin' plain and simple.

We all gonna die someday. The hard truth is, God will NOT heal ALL of us before we do.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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And once again, if God heals all, then why is Frank dead? Why didn't God heal him of his health issues? Frank was probably one of the strongest and most faithful Christians I've ever seen on this site. But he's dead, because God didn't heal him. Explain THAT one to us...
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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And once again, if God heals all, then why is Frank dead? Why didn't God heal him of his health issues? Frank was probably one of the strongest and most faithful Christians I've ever seen on this site. But he's dead, because God didn't heal him. Explain THAT one to us...
As angry and hurt by Frank's death as you are, Frank is rejoicing in God's presence. Would it surprise you, if he could open up the clouds and tell you, "Its all right Blue! Its great up here!"? As I said, God's sovereignty. For all you know God gave Frank true healing, by bringing him home.

I appreciate your drive, and tenacity, in having concern for people and their emotions. Their battle is in reconciling God's sovereignty, and the desires of their heart. Yet also, not for the faint of heart, where we ourselves have come short of belief. This is not to say that Frank or any of the people you've listed, would've come through with the right belief necessarily, because (and again) God is sovereign. However, we cannot deny the truth of God's word and the testimony of the saints who have conquered death through faith and God's providence.

As I said to another user, timing is an important caveat (if you will) in the discussion on healing and God's will. Even in the discussion on death as opposed to healing.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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I know he's rejoicing. :) I have absolutely no doubt that he's in God's presence right now. But my question all along is, WHY couldn't God have healed him BEFORE he died? We're all gonna be healed when we die. But it'd be real nice if we were healed BEFORE that happens.. How long does a person have to wait for healing? Days, weeks, months, or in my case, DECADES?

As angry and hurt by Frank's death as you are, Frank is rejoicing in God's presence. Would it surprise you, if he could open up the clouds and tell you, "Its all right Blue! Its great up here!"? As I said, God's sovereignty. For all you know God gave Frank true healing, by bringing him home.

I appreciate your drive, and tenacity, in having concern for people and their emotions. Their battle is in reconciling God's sovereignty, and the desires of their heart. Yet also, not for the faint of heart, where we ourselves have come short of belief. This is not to say that Frank or any of the people you've listed, would've come through with the right belief necessarily, because (and again) God is sovereign. However, we cannot deny the truth of God's word and the testimony of the saints who have conquered death through faith and God's providence.

As I said to another user, timing is an important caveat (if you will) in the discussion on healing and God's will. Even in the discussion on death as opposed to healing.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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I know he's rejoicing. :) I have absolutely no doubt that he's in God's presence right now. But my question all along is, WHY couldn't God have healed him BEFORE he died? We're all gonna be healed when we die. But it'd be real nice if we were healed BEFORE that happens.. How long does a person have to wait for healing? Days, weeks, months, or in my case, DECADES?
I would ask you, "Do you believe it is God's will to heal you?", but we've gone down this road before only to have you be offended, not considering what I am truly saying and the consequence of your words (that reveal your heart). Not that I am saying I know your heart, but if we carefully listen to what we say, we can see the implications.

You already believe that God doesn't always heal, that it isn't a promise or guarantee, and that leaves you with what? On what basis do you seek healing from God? If you say His mercy, I'd tell you that then you believe it is God's will to heal you because you believe He will be merciful to you. This is a cause for celebration and you can praise God, and thank him for the healing you believe He is bringing your way, based upon His goodness and generosity.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
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Let me, as gently as I can, express this. If a person says that God does not heal all people, they then have permitted a belief system by which God could not heal them. Right? We can agree? So, if God can say no to healing, then one cannot have faith for healing. They can only hope that God smiles upon them. Right? That He would have mercy on them, correct? So how do I under this belief system have any faith whatsoever if I do not believe it is God's will to heal me? I am only left with hope.
Here is where you are confusing what I’m saying and what I think most others here are saying.

I do not ever think that God can’t heal someone or just don’t have the power. That’s just ludicrous. We know God has all power in Heaven and earth so there is nothing that he can’t or won’t do when it is his will.

Now there is the key…When it is his will

So here’s the key for me, yes we pray and have faith that God has all power to heal, but we pray according to his will. God knows what’s best and he will do what’s best for us if we put our complete faith in him. May or may not be healing…He knows the future and knows exactly what each and every person needs, and will work it out for the good.
To say let your will be done is not losing or showing a lack of faith in God, but is showing complete faith and trust in God…Knowing that his will is what is best whether it be a healing or not.

So yes, we have complete faith in him and learn to align our will with his will. Knowing that our main hope and goal is not this world, but the one to come.

Like Paul said… to live is Christ and to die is gain.
 
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