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evyaniy

Guest
You said being Torah observant meant to love YHVH and love others as yourself. Love is keeping Messiah's law to love others as He loves us(He gave His life to save us). Loving YAH above all is expressed by loving others as He commands us to do. Do you see any of that kind of love in the world today?

The law that remains is Love. That is what matters and what is being broken constantly.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
Remember the good Samaritan. He was the neighbor of the man who needed his help because he had mercy on him and helped him. Being a neighbor to others comes from what we do in love to help others.

That is also why Messiah gave His life to save us His neighbors. It is not like we were good neighbors who deserved saving. It was the love for us within Him that made us His neighbors who needed His saving.

Luke 10

25 Behold, a certain Torah scholar stood up and tested Him, saying, “Rabbi, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the Torah? How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “You shall love the Adonai your EL with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”
28 He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, asked Yeshua, “Who is my neighbor?”
30 Yeshua answered, “A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he traveled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, 34 came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the host, and said to him, ‘Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.’ 36 Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbor to him who fell among the robbers?”
37 He said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Yeshua said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
 

Rainrider

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Jun 17, 2017
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As foreshadowed by Moses, (who represents the law), striking the Rock a second time when he was told to talk to the Rock to bring forth It's water. The Rock was only to be struck once. It is the Son's obedience to the law in offering His life to save us that nailed Him to the cross. The law was His path to life and being raised from the dead. He is the only One Who could fully obey the greatest commandments to love YHVH with all His heart and soul and mind and strength and to love His neighbor as Himself because He had to give His life as a Sacrifice to be obedient to those commands. None of us are capable of being obedient to those two commands. Look at the world around us as evidence. He did it to save His enemies in obedience to His Father.

So anyone claiming to be in any way obedient to the law has not taken up their cross and carried it to the place of their execution to save their enemies who cannot save themselves.
So are you say we need to a lawless people now? Even though we are told by Yeshua Himself that we are to follow the law.

Mat 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Luk 11:28But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Jhn 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Or it may that Paul is wrong.
1Co 5:8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

When we think of the Law as a bad thing then turn and say how sinful a person is, do we not openly admint the Law is valid today? For as the word tells us,
1Jo 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

As you have said not one person can live out the Torah in perfection. That is saying that we all sin. For that sin we must ask forgiveness correct? So why do we need to ask to be forggiven of a sin that will not be counted against us? Because deep down we know it is counted.
Now before you say, as I have headr before, "Becouse when we turn our lives over to Yeshua, we become sinless." I do agree, how as is the nature of man, we will sin again. In big ways at first, then as we walk closer to HaShem, they do seem to fall away. Yet as we know from the Torah, and others, sin can only be forgotten when we confess said sin, and repent. If we hold sin our heart, and try to foll our selves into thinking it doesn't count, we begin to move further from HaShem.
Don't get me wrong, as so many on here do, I know that without Yeshua we are all lost. However once we do enter into a real relationship with Him, we start to learn, or should, so what is we should learn?
Is it how He wants us to live, and walk? Or is it that we should learn none of that matters?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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You said being Torah observant meant to love YHVH and love others as yourself. Love is keeping Messiah's law to love others as He loves us(He gave His life to save us). Loving YAH above all is expressed by loving others as He commands us to do. Do you see any of that kind of love in the world today?

The law that remains is Love. That is what matters and what is being broken constantly.
True, yet Yeshua placed all of Torah on 2 Laws. To Love HaShem, and to love one another. If one thinks about that, they soon find that to follow just thous 2, we also keep the rest. There is no way to show love out side of the Torah.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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True, yet Yeshua placed all of Torah on 2 Laws. To Love HaShem, and to love one another. If one thinks about that, they soon find that to follow just thous 2, we also keep the rest. There is no way to show love out side of the Torah.
There is no way to show love outside of the Spirit. The law was a failed experiment for all but Jesus. The law brings death; the Spirit quickens.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Can you please explain Paul's vow further. Are you saying His vow was not completed or successful?
it is not clear that Paul even made a vow at all - but went with the men who had made a (probably) Nazarite vow to the temple, taking on himself the role of their representative, announced to the priest that their vow would be complete in 7 days hence, and that he would pay for the sacrifices of those men on the 8th day.

But the record of Acts 21 shows that the Jews tried to kill him before the days were over - before the sacrifices for the other men were made.

the whole thing was a trap. their intent was to accuse Paul of defiling the temple, and kill him, and it worked, except that Rome on seeing the commotion, pulled him out of their hands.
Paul went willingly into it, as he had said earlier in the record, he was willing not only to be bound but to die. this is what the prophet spoke of Paul, that the Jews would bind him.
 

posthuman

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Can you please explain Paul's vow further. Are you saying His vow was not completed or successful?
See below, Barnes notes on verse 26:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Then Paul took the men - Took them to himself; united with them in observing the ceremonies connected with their vow. To transactions like this he refers in 1 Corinthians 9:20; "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the Law, as under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law." Thus, it has always been found necessary, in propagating the gospel among the pagan, not to offend them needlessly, but to conform to their innocent customs in regard to dress, language, modes of traveling, sitting, eating, etc. Paul did nothing more than this. He violated none of the dictates of honesty and truth.
Purifying himself with them - Observing the ceremonies connected with the rite of purification. See the notes on Acts 21:24. This means evidently that he entered on the ceremonies of the separation according to the law of the Nazarite.
To signify - Greek: signifying or making known. That is, he announced to the priests in the temple his purpose of observing this vow with the four men, according to the law respecting the Nazarite. It was proper that such an announcement should be made beforehand, in order that the priests might know that all the ceremonies required had been observed.
The accomplishment ... - The fulfilling, the completion. That is, he announced to them his purpose to observe all the days and all the rites of purification required in the Law, in order that an offering might be properly made. It does not mean that the days had been accomplished, but that it was his intention to observe them, so that it would be proper to offer the usual sacrifice. Paul had not, indeed, engaged with them in the beginning of their vow of separation, but he might come in with hearty intention to share with them. It cannot be objected that he meant to impose on the priests, and to make them believe that he had observed the whole vow with them, for it appears from their own writings (Bereshith Rabba, 90, and Koheleth Rabba, 7) that in those instances where the Nazarites had not sufficient property to enable them to meet the whole expense of the offerings, other persons, who possessed more, might become sharers of it, and thus be made parties to the vow. See Jahn's Archaeology, 395. This circumstance will vindicate Paul from any intention to take an improper advantage, or to impose on the priests or the Jews. All that he announced was his intention to share with the four men in the offering which they were required to make, and thus to show his approval of the thing, and his accordance with the law which made such a vow proper.
Until that an offering ... - The sacrifices required of all those who had observed this vow. See the notes on Acts 21:24. Compare Numbers 6:13. It is a complete vindication of Paul in this case that he did no more here than he had done in a voluntary manner Acts 18:18, and as appears then in a secret manner, showing that he was still in the practice of observing this rite of the Mosaic institution. Nor can it be proved that Paul ever, in any way, or at any time, spoke against the vow of the Nazarite, or that a vow of a similar kind in spirit would be improper for a Christian in any circumstances.
 

posthuman

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So anyone claiming to be in any way obedient to the law has not taken up their cross and carried it to the place of their execution to save their enemies who cannot save themselves.
greater love hath no man than this:
that he lay down his life for his friends
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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As I left my last off script post, I said it was a lead up to this one. You see are called to rightly divide the Word.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Do we not find it odd that so many think to do this we must divided the Word where the N.T. starts, and forget the O.T.? I know I do. As many know the N.T. wasn't ever a pipe dream for Paul. He know he was leading follows to an understanding that they had never known before. Yet he lived his life by Torah, as can be seen in many actions we find by him. The keeping of the feast, the way he ended the vow he had taken, and how he help the others to close theirs as well. This list can go on, yet there is no need. After all Paul said in his own words,
Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
As we should know the law of the Hebrew people is the Torah, and the Pharisees were consernded that Paul may lead some away from that, the Sadducee's were thinking of the Temple services. Yet not one had any thing to back their unfounded accusations.
How many of us think to even look at what the Tanakh has to say about salvation? Not many in my experience. I do find that sad, after all, the word is used more in the Tanakh a little over 50% more than in the N.T.
Oh we do take parts of it for our selves. Like Sin being removed from us as far as the east is from the West. Psa 103:12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
As for salvation, we find that from Gen. -Rev.
Gen 49:18I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
170 times we find this word used in the Tanakh. Yet only 45 or so times in the N.T. so can we learn from the Tanakh? Yes we can. oddly salvation both come to the same understanding, it is by faith and no other way. It is for this reason that we have taken up the task of learning what Salvation is in both. True it does lead us down some rather hard topices to understand, and some that when we first started were hard to except.
At one point we like many of you reading this thought that Salvation was not a thing of old, rather something new. Yet When we started to see much of Yeshua said, in the O.T. and followed that with Paul doing the same, we had to ask, WHY? after all all that was nailed to the cross, and removed, for salvation can only come from Jesus right? What we found as we looked was that Yeshua holds the key. Not just to salvation, His name also tells us something. Now I know some will say this is wrong, I am good with that. However as a Rabbi explained it, the name means, HaShem is our salvation. Not being a linguist, I really no foundation to say if it is or isn't. So yes I took him at his word. After all, it is his native language not mine.
As we know, HaShem is no respecter of people. In other words, He doesn't hold one people to a set of laws, and not another. If He did, He would not be just in His judgments on us. Just as today, if a person never speeds, then one day they do, the same law that made it illegal for the one that does so all the time, now condemns them both. If man can do this, (well use to anyway), isn't HaShem a much better and righteous judge?
You see, no matter how many I say, "I don't keep the Law to be saved, I keep it as best I can because I am saved. " Mankind wishes to condemn me for my faith. So I now ask, where is the condemnation in walking in ALL that HaShem said? can any one show that from scripture, and still remain with the context of the Whole of scripture?
Didn't think so.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,532
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it is not clear that Paul even made a vow at all - but went with the men who had made a (probably) Nazarite vow to the temple, taking on himself the role of their representative, announced to the priest that their vow would be complete in 7 days hence, and that he would pay for the sacrifices of those men on the 8th day.

But the record of Acts 21 shows that the Jews tried to kill him before the days were over - before the sacrifices for the other men were made.

the whole thing was a trap. their intent was to accuse Paul of defiling the temple, and kill him, and it worked, except that Rome on seeing the commotion, pulled him out of their hands.
Paul went willingly into it, as he had said earlier in the record, he was willing not only to be bound but to die. this is what the prophet spoke of Paul, that the Jews would bind him.
See Acts 18:18. I think you find it clear that He had.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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There is no way to show love outside of the Spirit. The law was a failed experiment for all but Jesus. The law brings death; the Spirit quickens.
What most are unwilling to see is the law is not meant as a physical thing, it is spiritual. Oh true it does hold many physical aspects, just the church teaches both physical and spiritual aspects of faith.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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As I left my last off script post, I said it was a lead up to this one. You see are called to rightly divide the Word.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Do we not find it odd that so many think to do this we must divided the Word where the N.T. starts, and forget the O.T.? I know I do. As many know the N.T. wasn't ever a pipe dream for Paul. He know he was leading follows to an understanding that they had never known before. Yet he lived his life by Torah, as can be seen in many actions we find by him. The keeping of the feast, the way he ended the vow he had taken, and how he help the others to close theirs as well. This list can go on, yet there is no need. After all Paul said in his own words,
Act 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
As we should know the law of the Hebrew people is the Torah, and the Pharisees were consernded that Paul may lead some away from that, the Sadducee's were thinking of the Temple services. Yet not one had any thing to back their unfounded accusations.
How many of us think to even look at what the Tanakh has to say about salvation? Not many in my experience. I do find that sad, after all, the word is used more in the Tanakh a little over 50% more than in the N.T.
Oh we do take parts of it for our selves. Like Sin being removed from us as far as the east is from the West. Psa 103:12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
As for salvation, we find that from Gen. -Rev.
Gen 49:18I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.
170 times we find this word used in the Tanakh. Yet only 45 or so times in the N.T. so can we learn from the Tanakh? Yes we can. oddly salvation both come to the same understanding, it is by faith and no other way. It is for this reason that we have taken up the task of learning what Salvation is in both. True it does lead us down some rather hard topices to understand, and some that when we first started were hard to except.
At one point we like many of you reading this thought that Salvation was not a thing of old, rather something new. Yet When we started to see much of Yeshua said, in the O.T. and followed that with Paul doing the same, we had to ask, WHY? after all all that was nailed to the cross, and removed, for salvation can only come from Jesus right? What we found as we looked was that Yeshua holds the key. Not just to salvation, His name also tells us something. Now I know some will say this is wrong, I am good with that. However as a Rabbi explained it, the name means, HaShem is our salvation. Not being a linguist, I really no foundation to say if it is or isn't. So yes I took him at his word. After all, it is his native language not mine.
As we know, HaShem is no respecter of people. In other words, He doesn't hold one people to a set of laws, and not another. If He did, He would not be just in His judgments on us. Just as today, if a person never speeds, then one day they do, the same law that made it illegal for the one that does so all the time, now condemns them both. If man can do this, (well use to anyway), isn't HaShem a much better and righteous judge?
You see, no matter how many I say, "I don't keep the Law to be saved, I keep it as best I can because I am saved. " Mankind wishes to condemn me for my faith. So I now ask, where is the condemnation in walking in ALL that HaShem said? can any one show that from scripture, and still remain with the context of the Whole of scripture?
Didn't think so.
Keeping the law as best as you can is not keeping the law. Eventually you will fall into the trap of the Pharisees and dumb the law down to a set of prescribed behavior. In doing so, the law will be void of its spiritual character for you and become a ritualistic practice. Read Isaiah 1.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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What most are unwilling to see is the law is not meant as a physical thing, it is spiritual. Oh true it does hold many physical aspects, just the church teaches both physical and spiritual aspects of faith.
I think the law is awesome. My warning is against trying to keep it. No one except Jesus can. So one who is truly desirous of keeping it should want Jesus to keep it in them. Incredibly, that's what the new covenant offers, but very few actually find it.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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I will say this, from what I have seen of your writing on here, it is clear that we do hold some things in common, yet there is some we simply don't.

As to being under the Law if I may ask you a question on that.


If you know the law is to drive 65 on the highway, and you do just that, are you under that law, and simply free of the condemnation of it?
Why does man make vehicles with the capability of speeds that exceed 100 mph while no one is allowed by law to drive that fast on public highways or roads? Lol! Man is so silly!

Have you ever asked yourself… What is the “purpose” of the law to drive 65?

What is the “purpose” of God’s Law?

What is the “purpose” of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God - God’s Law of Grace?

I hope my rhetorical questions are not causing any confusion… I ask them simply to cause you to ponder…

God gives Adam and Eve 1 Law - do not eat if the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet, God puts that tree in the garden accessible to them…. what is God’s “purpose” in doing this?

LOVE. God wants us to know Him and love Him… yet, for us to do so we MUST have a choice. Love without a choice is manipulation and not love at all.

God does NOT want robots. What is God REALLY seeking and wanting….

God gave us the power and authority to make our own choices and decisions in hopes we will choose to know and love Him because He knows and loves us.

The “purpose” of Law is not about obeying or disobeying, condemnation or no condemnation. Instead, the “purpose” of Law is to give us a choice to love or not to love.
 

posthuman

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See Acts 18:18. I think you find it clear that He had.
If this is a Nazarite vow, he did not complete it, because he was arrested. he made no sacrifice as the law required of this voluntary act.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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So are you say we need to a lawless people now? Even though we are told by Yeshua Himself that we are to follow the law.
being under the law of Christ is neither being under the law of the Sinai covenant with Israel nor is it being "lawless"
 
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evyaniy

Guest
being under the law of Christ is neither being under the law of the Sinai covenant with Israel nor is it being "lawless"
That is correct. In fact the law of Messiah is a higher law since we are supposed to love others as He loved us. And since He loved us and offered His Life to save us while we were yet His enemies, His love is a love we could only hope to attain to and it is nearly non-existent in the world today. Look at the latest headlines. While people claim to be observant of any law. What a farce. What is taking place in the world is lawlessness and hate for others.

Romans 5

6 For while we were yet weak, at the right time Messiah died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man. Yet perhaps for a good person someone would even dare to die. 8 But EL commends His Own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Messiah died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we will be saved from EL’s wrath through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to EL through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we will be saved by His life.
 
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evyaniy

Guest
If this is a Nazarite vow, he did not complete it, because he was arrested. he made no sacrifice as the law required of this voluntary act.
We are not supposed to swear because we do not have the ability to control the outcome.

Both Messiah and James told us not to take oaths or swear. James even said Above all don't swear.

Oaths do not work for us. Can't recall any oaths that humans took in Scripture that were kept or worked for good. (with the exception of Messiah taking an oath to be obedient, which He did).

Thank you for explaining about Paul and the vow.

Matthew 5

33 “Again you have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall perform to the Adonai your vows,’ 34 but I tell you, don’t swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is the throne of EL; 35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shall you swear by your head, for you can’t make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No.’ Whatever is more than these is of the evil one.

James 5

12 But above all things, my brothers, don’t swear— not by heaven, or by the earth, or by any other oath; but let your “yes” be “yes”, and your “no”, “no”, so that you don’t fall into hypocrisy.