How can you really really really know you are saved?
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i remember mentioning some kind of caveat about "understanding what He says"
i'm not arguing that such a person cannot receive the Lord's mercy, and i even hold hope that there are saved people among the mormons, if it is possible, and i know with God all things are. may He open their eyes, and keep them! but is what you're trying to say equivalently put here? what if someone believes scripture, but doesn't have love for his neighbor? what if someone believes 4 verses, but as soon as they look away, they don't believe 10 others?
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also when did this become about being assured of someone else's salvation?
i thought this was about being sure of your own . . ?
Im not sure its possible to know if ur saved, until judgement day.
I try to live life as if im working off a debt.
But of course, we can never work off the full debt in our lifetimes. So salvation cannot come by works.
Yet, IF i manage to impress Him (my Debtor) enough... i might receive a "pardon"? (a.k.a grace?)
But that pardon/grace is totally up to the Judge... on That Day... when my "accuser" takes me to Court.
Hence salvation would then come "freely"... at His discretion (IF Hes impressed ^^").
Pardons arent given out until the Hearing is over right?
Everything in its correct order
I try to live life as if im working off a debt.
But of course, we can never work off the full debt in our lifetimes. So salvation cannot come by works.
Yet, IF i manage to impress Him (my Debtor) enough... i might receive a "pardon"? (a.k.a grace?)
But that pardon/grace is totally up to the Judge... on That Day... when my "accuser" takes me to Court.
Hence salvation would then come "freely"... at His discretion (IF Hes impressed ^^").
Pardons arent given out until the Hearing is over right?
Everything in its correct order
Scripture teaches that we can and will know that we are saved, sealed and awaiting glorification with Christ.
God gives evidence to the unbeliever of His presence through natural revelation according to Romans 1. God reveals Himself to His children in similar fashion in their daily lives. I cannot describe to you how I see the Lord moving in my life as it would be foolishness to you yet I see His presence everyday.
There is no confusion and without 100% assurance there could be not sacrifice of all to Christ.
I am reminded of an old evangelist who once said he was so certain of his salvation that he could swing out over the lake of fire on an old rotten corn stalk and not worry. Perhaps a little over stated as I do not wish to tempt my God but the Great Shepherd will not allow His sheep to suffer eternal condemnation.
Christ offers the peace that all men seek.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God gives evidence to the unbeliever of His presence through natural revelation according to Romans 1. God reveals Himself to His children in similar fashion in their daily lives. I cannot describe to you how I see the Lord moving in my life as it would be foolishness to you yet I see His presence everyday.
There is no confusion and without 100% assurance there could be not sacrifice of all to Christ.
I am reminded of an old evangelist who once said he was so certain of his salvation that he could swing out over the lake of fire on an old rotten corn stalk and not worry. Perhaps a little over stated as I do not wish to tempt my God but the Great Shepherd will not allow His sheep to suffer eternal condemnation.
Christ offers the peace that all men seek.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
So are you saying what happen to Paul on the road to Damascus had no effect on His life? Are you saying God does not reveal Himself to us? Are you saying salvation is not an "EVENT" in our lives, and/or that it doesn't COMPLETELY change us? I am not sure exactly what you're arguing with here, but if you are saying any of that I GREATLY disagree with you. The following scriptures all match my understanding of my salvation and GREATLY assure ME I am saved, I'm honestly not to worried if they assure anyone else of MY salvation.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Ezekiel 11:19-20
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ephesians 4:22-24
To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Isaiah 64:8
But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
As far as my experience helping others here using my "personal experience" here are a few verses on that-
2 Timothy 1:8-12
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
Psalm 71:15-18
My mouth will tell of your righteous acts, of your deeds of salvation all the day, for their number is past my knowledge. With the mighty deeds of the Lord God I will come; I will remind them of your righteousness, yours alone. O God, from my youth you have taught me, and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds. So even to old age and gray hairs, O God, do not forsake me, until I proclaim your might to another generation, your power to all those to come.
Revelation 12:11
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Psalm 66:16
Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul.
Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven
So exactly what is your problem with me testifying how God has SAVED me and worked in my life? Even more than that who in the world are you to presume to tell ANYONE about the assurance God has given them? We are called to lift His name always, and all we are armed with is our testimony, if my words make you feel convicted then it may be a good idea to examine yourself more closely. I have to admit I was kind of baffled by your attack on my position, I'm not sure how anyone that has felt the power of God and been made new could disagree honestly. Can you provide any scripture that says what I wrote is wrong, or did you just not like it?
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Ezekiel 11:19-20
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Ephesians 4:22-24
To put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Isaiah 64:8
But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
As far as my experience helping others here using my "personal experience" here are a few verses on that-
2 Timothy 1:8-12
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, which is why I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.
Psalm 71:15-18
My mouth will tell of your righteous acts, of your deeds of salvation all the day, for their number is past my knowledge. With the mighty deeds of the Lord God I will come; I will remind them of your righteousness, yours alone. O God, from my youth you have taught me, and I still proclaim your wondrous deeds. So even to old age and gray hairs, O God, do not forsake me, until I proclaim your might to another generation, your power to all those to come.
Revelation 12:11
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Psalm 66:16
Come and hear, all you who fear God, and I will tell what he has done for my soul.
Matthew 5:16
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven
So exactly what is your problem with me testifying how God has SAVED me and worked in my life? Even more than that who in the world are you to presume to tell ANYONE about the assurance God has given them? We are called to lift His name always, and all we are armed with is our testimony, if my words make you feel convicted then it may be a good idea to examine yourself more closely. I have to admit I was kind of baffled by your attack on my position, I'm not sure how anyone that has felt the power of God and been made new could disagree honestly. Can you provide any scripture that says what I wrote is wrong, or did you just not like it?
As far as I know mormons have a billion different gods and believe you can become one and things so to be fair, not sure they qualify as Christians?
You claim that these verses convey a symbol of hope but not a binding assurance of salvation well what about this verse:
1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
It even uses the word know right there so SLAM DUNK?
My motive is not merely fear, but I have read the countless verses from the Bible that say things like no one can snatch them out of my hand and I believe them. So unfortunately when you try to sow doubt in my mind by saying things like "you better really really be right." well right back at you. In your belief system you are merely gambling on if you have the truth or not, I rather just believe the Bible.
As for someone who is assured no longer seeking the truth, this only applies to salvation, but other things like eschatology or sanctification people who have assurance DO seek the truth on, dilligently.
Also might I ask, with so much talk about the mormons, are you a mormon yourself?
You claim that these verses convey a symbol of hope but not a binding assurance of salvation well what about this verse:
1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
It even uses the word know right there so SLAM DUNK?
My motive is not merely fear, but I have read the countless verses from the Bible that say things like no one can snatch them out of my hand and I believe them. So unfortunately when you try to sow doubt in my mind by saying things like "you better really really be right." well right back at you. In your belief system you are merely gambling on if you have the truth or not, I rather just believe the Bible.
As for someone who is assured no longer seeking the truth, this only applies to salvation, but other things like eschatology or sanctification people who have assurance DO seek the truth on, dilligently.
Also might I ask, with so much talk about the mormons, are you a mormon yourself?
By being saved, the EVENT of salvation is how we get that assurance. That is when God, the Creator of everything, makes us all new giving us new life and lifting the veil through the work of His Son Jesus on the cross. Being saved is how we are assured. Being saved is more that repeating some words a pastor says, or being dunked under water. I think this is where the disconnect is with you, a misunderstanding of what salvation actually is. I understand I was in a place where I thought I was a Christian and actually wasn't, and that messes everything up when it comes to understanding the things of the Spirit. Again only God can assure you of salvation, and that happens at the point you are born again (when you are saved).
Let's the Jesus to give you correct answer ... KJVMatthew7:21 21." Not every one saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven". They didn't make His Father's will for some reasons ... and how Jesus call them? I never knew you. Away from me, evildoers KJVMatthew7:23 23. "And then will I profess unto them I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity".
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Your favorite verse Romans 4:17
16) "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."
17) "As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[SUP]c[/SUP] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not."
18) "Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Romans 4:16-18
Are you Mormon?
16) "Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all."
17) "As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[SUP]c[/SUP] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not."
18) "Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
Romans 4:16-18
Are you Mormon?
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I would suggest you look at your own highlighted words. How could you put these words in bold and not notice that it expresses a "may be" guarantee. God gave His guarantee to "offer" grace to both Jews and gentiles. This verse speaks of God offering us His grace through faith. It is not speaking about assurance.
No, I am not a Mormon.
No, I am not a Mormon.
So this is my question.
If in any given subject (in this case salvation), a false assurance can clearly exist the notion of assurance can not exist. Where the possibly of self-deception exist, assurance cannot.
I would truly love to see any verses that prove self-deception towards salvation cannot exist.
If in any given subject (in this case salvation), a false assurance can clearly exist the notion of assurance can not exist. Where the possibly of self-deception exist, assurance cannot.
I would truly love to see any verses that prove self-deception towards salvation cannot exist.
Those that are depending on their own righteousness and not on Christ's righteousness may think that they are saved and may not be in fact born from above.
Going to church does not make one a Christian anymore than going into McDonald's makes you a Big Mac.
Then there are those that are in the body of Christ that are truly saved but wrong teaching has infected their minds to thinking that they must do works in order to keep being saved.
What makes one a Christian and makes one righteous is this.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Believe this above and you will always have assurance even when the fiery darts of the enemy comes to assault our minds.
Going to church does not make one a Christian anymore than going into McDonald's makes you a Big Mac.
Then there are those that are in the body of Christ that are truly saved but wrong teaching has infected their minds to thinking that they must do works in order to keep being saved.
What makes one a Christian and makes one righteous is this.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Believe this above and you will always have assurance even when the fiery darts of the enemy comes to assault our minds.