How do you get around this??

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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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wrath
/raTH/
noun
LITERARY•HUMOROUS
  1. extreme anger (chiefly used for humorous or rhetorical effect).
    "he hid his pipe for fear of incurring his father's wrath"
    synonyms:anger, rage, fury, annoyance, indignation, outrage, pique, spleen, chagrin, vexation, exasperation, dudgeon, high dudgeon, hot temper, bad temper, bad mood, ill humor, irritation, irritability, crossness, displeasure, discontentment, disgruntlement, irascibility, cantankerousness, peevishness, querulousness, crabbiness, testiness, tetchiness, snappishness; More

 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
40,821
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With every belief there is a disbelief, you don't take a little bit of this a scoop of that and a pinch of that and make it truth.

Example .....There is only one God .....in believing that (which I know we do ) we disbelieve any other gods exist.

Case in point Jesus Christ is exclusive, he alone has made us worthy and excepted, he alone bore our sins and endured the wrath of God for us. He alone is the savior, the only begotten of the father. He alone is holy and remains holy.
The only way we can remotely be as he is is to be born again and in him.
Paul said very clearly ....we are not ...we are not .....appointed to wrath. Scriptures tell us who are the children of wrath.
At the return of Christ the nation's mourn there is none that rejoice.( Wouldn't you think the church would rejoice). Where is it?
If you are post trib and survive the trib which by the way is the wrath of God for the wicked then the exclusiveness of Christ has been compromised.
Christ being bridle high in blood does not paint a picture of blessing. He alone battles as he did in the old testament .
The wrath of God poured out on the Earth as never before punishment for the wicked.
It's something to fear not something to look forward to. Why??? Because if you are to experience this something went wrong in your walk, something was not right, and it wasn't the promises of God.
The word is accepted not excepted and the words wrath and tribulation are two different words, with two different meanings and two different applications....

Wrath <---ORGE--->FIERY indignation of GOD directed at all unbelievers gathered under the banner of the beast

Tribulation <--Thilpisis---> Directed at believers and means persecution, pressure, put the squeeze on.

THROUGH MUCH TRIBULATION (Thilpisis) we must enter into the KINGDOM of GOD, but WE ARE NOT appointed unto WRATH (ORGE)

THE wrath of GOD is announced at the 7th and final trump of REVELATION...it is ANNOUNCED before the THRONE of GOD in HEAVEN as HAVING ARRIVED.

The LORD, and HIS CHURCHES have been suffering TRIBULATION from DAY ONE....and EVEN CAIN persecuted ABEL.......

WAKE up pal........YOU are conflating TWO words with DIFFERENT MEANINGS ans APPLICATIONS just as MANY do on this site......
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,042
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Every body afraid of persecution, me include. But I believe we have to read the bible as It is.

Jesus promise, the world Will hate you,

John 15:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

He promise kind of persecution or Being hate.

I think the world or the devil hate us and persecute d us to discourage us to follow Him. The devil must do something to stop people to follow Jesus.

If you wacth 12 found boxing match, oN the last round both boxer try the best to win the game

When Lucifer know the time is short, I believe he try the best to stop people come to the Lord.

So I believe Christian there in the tribulation, the biggest ever, this is the last effort for Lucifer.

If Christian not there, then there isn't target for persecution.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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I'm with you I can't tell if he agrees or disagrees with me but my particular point was if you have your relationship built with God and trust Him He will get you through to the end no matter when Jesus comes. I'm not saying that we are to keep status quo....but to continue to help lead people to Jesus which is what I meant about being about our Father's business.
I am like you Darlene, whatever happens Jesus can preserve us. Even while God is pouring His wrath out on the world, we are still safely in His hands. If He chooses me to die for His cause, what an honor that would be. I hope only to stand strong in the face of adversity with the His help. 5thumbsup.gif
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
5,552
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lawton ok
I am like you Darlene, whatever happens Jesus can preserve us. Even while God is pouring His wrath out on the world, we are still safely in His hands. If He chooses me to die for His cause, what an honor that would be. I hope only to stand strong in the face of adversity with the His help. View attachment 202377
Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. b 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." NIV
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,042
537
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Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. b 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." NIV
It is an indikator that some Christian may die for his faith. He know It Will happen so He want us to prepare for that day
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,737
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If Christian not there, then there isn't target for persecution.
There will be Tribulation saints -- primarily Jewish converts. After all Moses and Elijah will be on earth preaching Christ (Rev 11). They too will be killed, and all who refuse to take the Mark of the Beast will be beheaded (Rev 13 & 20).

At the same time, you should understand that the Church (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles) will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation since the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way" BEFORE the Antichrist takes total control of the world. In any event the Tribulation is not designed for the Church but for unbelieving Jews -- it is the time of Jacob's trouble.
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
10,063
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Grea
There will be Tribulation saints -- primarily Jewish converts. After all Moses and Elijah will be on earth preaching Christ (Rev 11). They too will be killed, and all who refuse to take the Mark of the Beast will be beheaded (Rev 13 & 20).

At the same time, you should understand that the Church (all redeemed Jews and Gentiles) will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation since the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way" BEFORE the Antichrist takes total control of the world. In any event the Tribulation is not designed for the Church but for unbelieving Jews -- it is the time of Jacob's trouble.
What are the raptured people going to be during the seven year tribulation?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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What are the raptured people going to be during the seven year tribulation?
Surrounding the throne of God and praising Him with the angels in Heaven.

REVELATION 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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What are the raptured people going to be during the seven year tribulation?
I know you were asking Nehemiah6, but I just wanted to point out that I did refer to this (pertaining to your question) in my Post #90 (page 5), at the bottom paragraph where I wrote about the phrase "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]," and the one place it's used with regard to US / "the Church which is His body" and OUR role during that specific, limited, future time period which will unfold upon the earth (commonly called the 7-yr tribulation period), but that we will not be located "on the earth" (while this "role" of ours is in play, per the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" in the context of Rom16:20, I referred to in the bottom of that post)


EDIT: I agree also with what Neh6 just put in the post, right before this one ^ ... I believe "the 24 elders" (on "thrones," and with "stephanos/crowns" [note: 2Tim4:8's "IN THAT DAY"]) represent the already-raptured "Church which is His body" FOLLOWING a "searching judgment" as indicated by the "was found" words [also used in Paul's trials, in the latter part of Acts, several verses])
 

KJV1611

Senior Member
Nov 23, 2013
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Surrounding the throne of God and praising Him with the angels in Heaven.

REVELATION 5

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
At the same time the raptured saints are in heaven, every creature on earth is praising God during the tribulation as verse 13 says?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Romans 12
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
2 Timothy 2

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

I just can't understand to what profit it is for someone in the knowing or discerning of tribulation, or rapture?
And, the spending of so much time and energy concerning it.
Are these not profane and vain babblings?
So what happens when pre-tribbers find themselves in the midst of it instead? Thinking they were not going to see such times, they will not be prepared for them. Not being prepared, and seeing they were wrong, they will question more of what they thought they knew. In the end, Jesus says many will turn away from Him because they were not prepared for the time to come.

Seems like an important discussion to me...
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Luke 12:20 - But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee

There are plenty who will see their rapture come waaaaaaaaaay before the 7 years even begins.

Maybe even tonight!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Luke 12:20 - But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee

There are plenty who will see their rapture come waaaaaaaaaay before the 7 years even begins.

Maybe even tonight!
Okay, I understand your point, but we should endeavor to use the proper biblical wording, instead of mis-applying certain biblical words (as you have here. No offense. But this does create confusion out there, so I do believe it should be addressed).

"Rapture" (the word in scripture, in 1Th4:17, translated in the kjv as "caught up") is used (in such a context) with regard to the following:

--pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints);

--takes place at ONLY *ONE* point in time;

--consists only of "the dead IN Christ" AND the "we which are alive and remain unto" (both having been "changed" into our glorified bodies), caught up together "AS ONE" (the passage says)

--is "OUR [the Church which is His body's] episynagoges [noun-event] UNTO HIM" [the meeting [noun] of the Lord... 'IN THE AIR']



What you are referring to instead is the "absent from the body" (though "present with the Lord") point in time, upon our "death" (that is, of the believer)
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Sounds good, but that is totally misleading.

The pre-tribulation Resurrection/Rapture is a Bible doctrine. It was first given by Christ Himself. And it has tremendous significance in God's plan of salvation.
I disagree, my view on this has changed a few times, all while I was saved. How does ones end times view have "tremendous significance" in God's plan of salvation? I don't believe that at all. I believe Jesus telling about the coming judgement, was just that, and it was coming to judge the covenant breakers at the end of the "AGE", and this happen when He took His temple off the earth. The judgement Jesus said would happen before the people there died, in the time frame He told the Disciples before they made it through the cities.
I believe He was right and I'm not to look to the building of Hid kingdom, not "waiting" to get sucked out of my underwear.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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I disagree, my view on this has changed a few times, all while I was saved. How does ones end times view have "tremendous significance" in God's plan of salvation? I don't believe that at all. I believe Jesus telling about the coming judgement, was just that, and it was coming to judge the covenant breakers at the end of the "AGE", and this happen when He took His temple off the earth. The judgement Jesus said would happen before the people there died, in the time frame He told the Disciples before they made it through the cities.
I believe He was right and I'm not to look to the building of Hid kingdom, not "waiting" to get sucked out of my underwear.
See, I believe Matthew 10 has both a "near" and a "far-future" fulfillment (not saying "double-fulfillment"!), but off the top of my head, I don't recall at which verse the demarcation is located (but I do believe that the "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" refers to the "far-future" part [speaking of the future trib-yrs/7-yrs/70th-Wk). A few passages I've already mentioned, do this same thing (split from "near" to "far-future")… and that the "ye" is a "proleptic 'ye'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY"... and in this case, it is, "those wo whom the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" was promised. [i.e. not to "the Church which is His body" (note: I do believe we will RETURN "WITH [G4862]" Him, but not as "subjects" of the kingdom)])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I also covered some of that ^ when I wrote a post about the "parable" in Hebrews 9:8-9 ("a parable for the time present" and the "tabernacle" in reference there [vv.2-4, which can only be speaking of the "tabernacle" in the wilderness, not the later "Temple" (see also 2Cor5:3-4... and v.1 "tabernacle" reference)]) It says, "the first tabernacle having yet A STANDING [G4714 - stasin/stasis (from the base "histemi - G2476")]"
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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Grea

What are the raptured people going to be during the seven year tribulation?
Many of us believe in mid trib., rapture and we will be here resisting and or avoiding the forces of the antichrist until the rapture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Many of us believe in mid trib., rapture and we will be here resisting and or avoiding the forces of the antichrist until the rapture.
calibob, I'd like to hear your take on what I'd put in the bottom of my Post #90... the part regarding [what I wrote, referring to "US/the Church which is His body" and our role, during that time period]… Here's the quote (I'm referring specifically to the BOLDED part):

I believe the "wrath" STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), when He Himself opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period spoken of in Rev1:1[4:1/1:19c(7:3)] and Lk18:8[/17:26-37] and also Rom16:20 (<--but this verse referring to US, "the Church which is His body," doing the 1Cor6:3[14] thing in/from a distinct location from where the other two passages' contexts will unfold/play out "on the earth"--one of the reasons for our "Rapture/Departure" [IN THE AIR])
IOW, when do you propose WE are going to do/be involved in (things referred to in these verses):

--1Cor6:3[14] "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (given the parallel time-wise of Isaiah 24:21-22[23] with that of Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:6, meaning at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, when "the host of the high ones that are on high" will be [also] "shut up in the prison/pit"... i.e. the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24:21-22[23]…) Do you believe that all ("we shall judge angels") takes place all in that "twinkling of an eye" moment? (oops, I forgot, you said you believe "MID-trib")

--Romans 16:20 "shall bruise Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the same time period referred to in Rev1:1 [re:4:1/19:19c "FUTURE" things (and the 7:3 "servants")], as well as the "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" of Lk18:8[/17:26-37], though both of these passages refer to those in "earthly-location"
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Okay, I understand your point, but we should endeavor to use the proper biblical wording, instead of mis-applying certain biblical words (as you have here. No offense. But this does create confusion out there, so I do believe it should be addressed).

"Rapture" (the word in scripture, in 1Th4:17, translated in the kjv as "caught up") is used (in such a context) with regard to the following:

--pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints);

--takes place at ONLY *ONE* point in time;

--consists only of "the dead IN Christ" AND the "we which are alive and remain unto" (both having been "changed" into our glorified bodies), caught up together "AS ONE" (the passage says)

--is "OUR [the Church which is His body's] episynagoges [noun-event] UNTO HIM" [the meeting [noun] of the Lord... 'IN THE AIR']



What you are referring to instead is the "absent from the body" (though "present with the Lord") point in time, upon our "death" (that is, of the believer)
I haven't had time to fully notate this yet, but it's my belief that even tho we die at different times, we all arrive in 'heaven' at the same time, which is the point at which Christ is gathering us prior to His return.

It has to do with un-linking our time constraints from the eternal. IOW, our physical timeline does not equate (match) to heaven's timeline.

Sorry I know that's kind of empty, but I haven't had time to fully scripture that yet.