How do you get around this??

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RickyZ

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Sep 20, 2012
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See, I believe Matthew 10 has both a "near" and a "far-future" fulfillment (not saying "double-fulfillment"!), but off the top of my head, I don't recall at which verse the demarcation is located (but I do believe that the "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" refers to the "far-future" part [speaking of the future trib-yrs/7-yrs/70th-Wk). A few passages I've already mentioned, do this same thing (split from "near" to "far-future")… and that the "ye" is a "proleptic 'ye'" (meaning, basically, "all those in the future, OF THE SAME CATEGORY"... and in this case, it is, "those wo whom the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" was promised. [i.e. not to "the Church which is His body" (note: I do believe we will RETURN "WITH [G4862]" Him, but not as "subjects" of the kingdom)])
And that goes along with my understanding...

God offered the Messiah to the Jews, they rejected Him, and thus suffered their 'tribulation' in 70 ad.

God then offered the Christ to the world, the world is rejecting Him, so the world will suffer it's tribulation in the days to come.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I haven't had time to fully notate this yet, but it's my belief that even tho we die at different times, we all arrive in 'heaven' at the same time, which is the point at which Christ is gathering us prior to His return.

It has to do with un-linking our time constraints from the eternal. IOW, our physical timeline does not equate (match) to heaven's timeline.

Sorry I know that's kind of empty, but I haven't had time to fully scripture that yet.
I've made a post on that idea in the past... basically, I believe 2 Corinthians 5:2-4 is nixing such a thought.

--"unclothed" there means "without a body (for a time), upon our death"

--"clothed upon" means "immediately clothed with our glorified bodies APART from having to DIE first" [THIS takes place at our Rapture, for the "we which are alive and remain unto" portion OF "the Church which is His body" (the "mortality... swallowed up OF LIFE"--the "still-LIVING" portion of The Body [at the time of our Rapture and "change"], whereas 1Cor15:51-54 is referring to both portions ["the DEAD IN Christ" and the "we which are alive and remain unto"], described distinctly [though "ONE BODY" and "caught up AS ONE")]
 

RickyZ

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I believe the "wrath" STARTS when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13 / Rev4-5), when He Himself opens the FIRST SEAL at the START of the 7-yr period (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period spoken of in Rev1:1[4:1/1:19c(7:3)] and Lk18:8[/17:26-37] and also Rom16:20 (<--but this verse referring to US, "the Church which is His body," doing the 1Cor6:3[14] thing in/from a distinct location from where the other two passages' contexts will unfold/play out "on the earth"--one of the reasons for our "Rapture/Departure" [IN THE AIR])
If you look closely you'll find that the seals and trumpets encompass God's JUDGMENT. And God repeatedly says we will see judgment.

The Bowls, however, are specifically labeled as God's Wrath. And God says we will not see His wrath.

If this is true, then we see the events of the seals and trumpets, but not those events contained in the bowls.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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If you look closely you'll find that the seals and trumpets encompass God's JUDGMENT. And God repeatedly says we will see judgment.

The Bowls, however, are specifically labeled as God's Wrath. And God says we will not see His wrath.

If this is true, then we see the events of the seals and trumpets, but not those events contained in the bowls.
I disagree with your second paragraph in this way:

Re: the Bowls/Vials, it says, "for in them the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (not is STARTED--this is NOT the STARTING-POINT of it [but the "COMPLETION" of it]).


[to go along with that, I already pointed out the parallel language between 2Th2:7b-8a (8a being at the START of the 7-yrs) and that of Lam2:3-4 (in a "WRATH" context, and "judgment")]
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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Matthew 24:42
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come.

For you mid tribers if you divide the 7years of tribulation then you know his return.

For the post tribers you know that the lords return is after the seven yrs.

For the pre tribers this scripture holds true so I'm curious as to how you get around this?
The pre-trib scripture is scriptural.
So what must one ....get around?
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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So what happens when pre-tribbers find themselves in the midst of it instead? Thinking they were not going to see such times, they will not be prepared for them. Not being prepared, and seeing they were wrong, they will question more of what they thought they knew. In the end, Jesus says many will turn away from Him because they were not prepared for the time to come.

Seems like an important discussion to me...
Pre-tribbers will not spend time on that........ hypothesis ...because that possibility is not proclaimed in scriptures.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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lawton ok
calibob, I'd like to hear your take on what I'd put in the bottom of my Post #90... the part regarding [what I wrote, referring to "US/the Church which is His body" and our role, during that time period]… Here's the quote (I'm referring specifically to the BOLDED part):



IOW, when do you propose WE are going to do/be involved in (things referred to in these verses):

--1Cor6:3[14] "we SHALL JUDGE ANGELS" (given the parallel time-wise of Isaiah 24:21-22[23] with that of Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:6, meaning at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, when "the host of the high ones that are on high" will be [also] "shut up in the prison/pit"... i.e. the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isa24:21-22[23]…) Do you believe that all ("we shall judge angels") takes place all in that "twinkling of an eye" moment? (oops, I forgot, you said you believe "MID-trib")

--Romans 16:20 "shall bruise Satan UNDER YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the same time period referred to in Rev1:1 [re:4:1/19:19c "FUTURE" things (and the 7:3 "servants")], as well as the "AVENGE IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" of Lk18:8[/17:26-37], though both of these passages refer to those in "earthly-location"
I've heard theologians go round and around regarding the rapture timing. Even my professors were divided. So I'll confess that I'm undecided and it has little to do with our salvation other than timing patience and resistance to the enemy. But I imagine that the second seal is the beginning of the end and a titanic world war like the world has never seen and the fifth seal is the first resurrection of the dead followed closely by the rapture. Thus my best guess is mid trib. We cannot afford as a church to let us divide us and since no one knows the day or the hour, our time would be better spent on the great commission than fretting about when the Lord is comming for us. Amen?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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I've heard theologians go round and around regarding the rapture timing. Even my professors were divided. So I'll confess that I'm undecided and it has little to do with our salvation other than timing patience and resistance to the enemy. But I imagine that the second seal is the beginning of the end and a titanic world war like the world has never seen and the fifth seal is the first resurrection of the dead followed closely by the rapture. Thus my best guess is mid trib. We cannot afford as a church to let us divide us and since no one knows the day or the hour, our time would be better spent on the great commission than fretting about when the Lord is comming for us. Amen?
Yeah, I was only curious as to the "WHEN" you believe "we shall judge angels" (1Cor6:3[14]) and the "shall bruise Satan under YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; like Rev1:1's same "timing" phrase]" (Rom16:20) actually take place, since both of those verses are "addressed" to US ("the Church which is His body") [unlike certain other contexts that are continually misapplied (to us), by many]… and therefore are things that actually do concern US (not that we are to neglect our role as "ambassadors" here, while here ;) ).

By the way, I never consider it "fretting, " but a JOYOUS endeavor... (to "understand" these things, in increasing measure)
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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lawton ok
Yeah, I was only curious as to the "WHEN" you believe "we shall judge angels" (1Cor6:3[14]) and the "shall bruise Satan under YOUR feet IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; like Rev1:1's same "timing" phrase]" (Rom16:20) actually take place, since both of those verses are "addressed" to US ("the Church which is His body") [unlike certain other contexts that are continually misapplied (to us), by many]… and therefore are things that actually do concern US (not that we are to neglect our role as "ambassadors" here, while here ;) ).

By the way, I never consider it "fretting, " but a JOYOUS endeavor... (to "understand" these things, in increasing measure)
What you are talking about is beyond our current lifespan and the fretting part is because people (not necessarily you) lose focus on our current jobs. We have to fill the ark before it rains, (fire and brimstone) so I'd rather concentrate on the current job. First things first.
 

RickyZ

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Pre-tribbers will not spend time on that........ hypothesis ...because that possibility is not proclaimed in scriptures.
Man I wish I was infallable ... as you here think to be ... but dangit there's still that 'I'm only human' element that makes me say 'as right as I think I am, I must allow for the fact that I might be wrong'.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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Honestly, if you're interested in my opinion, which I know you're not (other than for target practice), here's my final answer....

Pray for Pre

Prepare for post

And anywhere in between the two is fine with me as well.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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What you are talking about is beyond our current lifespan
In one sense, yes, but (in my view) these two things will be taking place while "people" will still be existing on the earth (BEFORE His Second Coming to the earth), and affecting THEM. (One reason why I believe it IS important for us to be "conveying these Truths" accurately, that is, for THEIR sakes--as THEY will be existing on the earth during a time of great deception, and our words TODAY [in this day and age] ought to be HELPING [to their BENEFIT] rather than HINDERING things to their end).

and the fretting part is because people (not necessarily you) lose focus on our current jobs. We have to fill the ark before it rains, (fire and brimstone) so I'd rather concentrate on the current job. First things first.
I believe that part of our accurately conveying "our current job" is in our "correctly apportioning the word of truth," so that, for example, when we are conveying things to others, we (the Church) will not be saying things like (the oft-mis-applied) "he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved" and [incorrectly] telling others that this means we (believers/any member of the Church which is His body) can LOSE or FORFEIT "salvation" (wrong application, due to wrong understanding and wrong teaching regarding this sentence). Things like that... (IOW, I don't believe it is due to "losing focus" on our current job(s), but not understanding what it even IS. lol)
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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How about, there's no rapture at all.
Nobody is flying out of this earth. The elect are taken out of this earth through painful death to be guided out of evil; God has said so (Isa 57:1-5/ Psalm 116:15/ Rev 14:14-20).

Can we just say, it has been a misunderstanding to begin with.
 

preston39

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Dec 18, 2017
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Man I wish I was infallable ... as you here think to be ... but dangit there's still that 'I'm only human' element that makes me say 'as right as I think I am, I must allow for the fact that I might be wrong'.
The scriptures are clear........they don't change....... That eliminates the human factor.
 

Bingo

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49-497487_unknown-clipart-man-silhouette-female-silhouette-question-mark - Copy (2).jpg
'Mirror Mirror on the wall, what is it that YOU see.'
 

RickyZ

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Sep 20, 2012
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The scriptures are clear........they don't change....... That eliminates the human factor.
Scripture is infallible.

Your ability to understand them is not.

Loose the pride and arrogance.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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lawton ok
Scripture is infallible.

Your ability to understand them is not.

Loose the pride and arrogance.
It often takes the gift of discernment. To some the simple approach of the Lords parables are more difficult to understand than mountains of texts and cross references. There are some things that speak directly to the circumcised of the heart that baffle those who only understand by human intellect (and lack there of) pray for the Holy Spirit to help and learn what "Lean not to your own understanding..." means.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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How about, there's no rapture at all.
That would be as egregious as saying that there is so salvation at all. It is all a huge misunderstanding.

The underlying problem with those who reject the Rapture is that they do not comprehend what God has purposed in His plan of salvation -- the perfection and glorification of the saints. Without the Resurrection/Rapture that could not take place.

Furthermore, they do not understand the restraining power of the Holy Spirit and th Church on earth over Satan and the appearance of the Antichrist, and how God will allow then to take total control of the world for 3 1/2 years.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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That would be as egregious as saying that there is so salvation at all. It is all a huge misunderstanding.

The underlying problem with those who reject the Rapture is that they do not comprehend what God has purposed in His plan of salvation -- the perfection and glorification of the saints. Without the Resurrection/Rapture that could not take place.

Furthermore, they do not understand the restraining power of the Holy Spirit and th Church on earth over Satan and the appearance of the Antichrist, and how God will allow then to take total control of the world for 3 1/2 years.
Your post is sad and how will i ever convince you that you are wrong?

If you believe in the false idea of rapture, you definitely have a wrong idea about resurrection and having the wrong idea about resurrection means having the wrong idea about salvation and life eternal.

Rapture is not God's plan, if it were, the prophets would have prophesied. Daniel never saw one in his night visions, Isaiah prophesied something different about resurrection, He never saw people flying off.

Rapture is nothing more than a huge misunderstanding, compounded by the false idea that the words "..caught in the air.." means flying off.
Jesus who supposedly catches people in air should never have prayed this way then:

John 17:14I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one.