How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Re: Must save from Unbelief to be a success !

Christ's Mission is to deliver those He died for from Unbelief/Disobedience, that which Adam plunged them into as their natural Covenant head Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Or we can say with the same veracity Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made disobedient, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And if those He died for are not delivered from that disobedience or unbelief, then Christ failed His Purpose for God the Father to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21 and to seek and to save that which was lost in Adam Lk 19:10.

Now, all the Elect/Sheep were delivered to unbelief and disobedience by the Judgment of God for their sin in Adam, however it was for an merciful purpose, hence Paul writes to jew and Gentile Election of Grace this Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all .

God hath concluded them all in Unbelief ! The word concluded is the greek word Sugkleio and means:



All the Elect of God, [jew and gentile] are shut up into the power of satan and held captive under unbelief and disobedience for the purpose of God having saving mercy on them Titus 3:5 ! 926
So today is the day for to be saved then, time to believe God at God's word, who loves us all, you think?
is not that all he has left for us to do is believe God or decide to not? Knowing ones choice consciously, and is why the holy Spirit of truth has been sent to lead you think to tell others the truth that God just love you, do you believe this? then ask God in you what this means, and become a responder over a creator as what we were first born with that attitude of watch me I can and do create. Time to change you think and beleive and trust Father to do any creating through you as you just respond to his magnificent love for you through the cross
By Faith we are saved and not of works , lest any man boast
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Must save from Unbelief to be a success 2



All men even the Elect of God, when unbelievers we are being, we are in a Lost state, an imprisoned state, we cannot believe the Gospel in that lost state because at that time its being hid 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Believing not or unbelief means lostness ! We cannot believe the Gospel in a Lost state because of the activity of the devil blinding our minds to the Truth !

Jesus mentions it here also Lk 8:12

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

So unbelief, disobedience is an imprisonment, but Christ as the Covenant given to the People, His responsibility is this Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

This effects Faith and Obedience !

Christ's work is to effect by bringing out the prisoners from the prison, for they are the prisoners of Hope Zech 9:11-12

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

They are brought out of the prison of unbelief/disobedience Rom 11:32, and if that does not happen for each one He died for, and anyone of them ends up like one of these Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

One that believed not and died in their sins, then Christ has failed His Covenant ResponsibilityIsa 42:6-7 to the Father, now how many of us want to concede to calling Christ a failure ? That's exactly what we are guilty of if even one for whom He died, shed His Blood for, die in unbelief and in their sins !927
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Re: Must save from Unbelief to be a success !

So today is the day for to be saved then, time to believe God at God's word, who loves us all, you think?
is not that all he has left for us to do is believe God or decide to not? Knowing ones choice consciously, and is why the holy Spirit of truth has been sent to lead you think to tell others the truth that God just love you, do you believe this? then ask God in you what this means, and become a responder over a creator as what we were first born with that attitude of watch me I can and do create. Time to change you think and beleive and trust Father to do any creating through you as you just respond to his magnificent love for you through the cross
By Faith we are saved and not of works , lest any man boast
Post 360, did you understand the point made ? How that one must be saved from unbelief if Christ died for him ? Now please, explain to me what my post is saying and the Logic behind it, to see if you understood it even though you may disagree ! Thanks !
 
Jan 21, 2013
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What is the first resurrection ?


John writes in Rev 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The First Resurrection I believe is Threefold #1 It consisteth in na legal Resurrection in Christ from the dead at the same time He was raised from the dead after having been delivered for our offecences,if indeed He died for us Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

All for whom sins He was delivered for, were legally raised up together with Him Eph 2:6

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Isa 26:19

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

And as the fruit of that Resurrection legally they partake of a #2 Spirutla Resurrection from Spiritual Death Eph 2:5 which is but an application unto them of having been legally resurrected with Christ when He was raised from the dead, and #3 it means that the Saints who died during their lifetime , be it through natural death or persecution as beheading, they were raised immediately into the presence of the Lord as indicated by Paul here 2 Cor 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Yet these things we believe is what constitute the First Resurrection, and all such the Second Death hath no Power, for they shall never come into Condemnation !928
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
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Re: Must save from Unbelief to be a success !

Post 360, did you understand the point made ? How that one must be saved from unbelief if Christ died for him ? Now please, explain to me what my post is saying and the Logic behind it, to see if you understood it even though you may disagree ! Thanks !
Did you understand mine?
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Re: Must save from Unbelief to be a success !

Did you understand mine?
Yes, because it was an diversion from post 360m and its comments. So are you going to review post 360 with me or not by explaining what I put down there back to me to see if you understood it. Yes or No ?
 

CRC

Senior Member
Oct 9, 2013
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God's love for mankind is unconditonal.(John 3:16) However to benefit from this " Saving Grace" faith must be exercised in Jesus.(John 3:36) Free-will does not allow for anarchy. Respect for the sovereignty of God requires obedience. And to the contrary God's justice does not promote double Jeopardy. Romans 6:7 states that "For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin".
 
Jan 21, 2013
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crc

God's love for mankind is unconditonal.(John 3:16) However to benefit from this " Saving Grace" faith must be exercised in Jesus.
This is all a lie, Those Christ died for benefited from His Death while they were enemies and unelievers, because as such they were Reconciled to God while others were not. Rom 5:10 !
 
Apr 25, 2013
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Calvinism derived its 3 classes ultimately from the 3 classes in Valentinian Gnosticism (see Ireneaus’ five books Against Heresies):
1. Pneumatics (spirituals) – The elect of the elect.
2. Psuchics (soulys) – The average elect.
3. Hylics (carnals) – The non-elect.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Calvin's ideals also came about 1500 years after the apostles and the starting of the early church age. For those years what was taught from generation to generation from the teachings from the apostles was different than what Calvin taught. Instance the early age church taught one could loose salvation, Calvin taught one could not loose salvation.

Calvinism derived its 3 classes ultimately from the 3 classes in Valentinian Gnosticism (see Ireneaus’ five books Against Heresies):
1. Pneumatics (spirituals) – The elect of the elect.
2. Psuchics (soulys) – The average elect.
3. Hylics (carnals) – The non-elect.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
14,842
79
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Re: Must save from Unbelief to be a success !

Yes, because it was an diversion from post 360m and its comments. So are you going to review post 360 with me or not by explaining what I put down there back to me to see if you understood it. Yes or No ?
I do not understand you and most of your post, I see part truth and error and am leaving it up to father to discern truth over error, for it is Father who sets us free in him through Son and grows us up in maturity unto him, walking in love to all

Your responses to me have not always been well. It seems to me that all you want to do is tell your view what you see as truth only. So NO, sorry unless you are willing it come to this side of the room and try to see what others say, instead of calling others liars and Blasphemy
Are you willing to repent from your accusations? If so I am ready to walk in love and discuss, for us both to grow in truth of Father through Son
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Covenant Promise to Abraham and Seed !


The Covenant Promise God made to Abraham and his seed regarding the possession of Canaan for everlasting Gen 17:8 is by Paul in the NT expanded upon to mean the World Rom 4:13

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

And his seed included Gentiles Rom 4:16,17

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law[jews], but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham[gentiles]; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

And this should not be a big suprise, since even when that specific promise was made to Abraham, it was right after God declaring of him a Father of many nations, and when his name was changed from abram to Abraham Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

So in actuality his Name Abraham is given to him in the connection of him being a Father of many nations, not just of the jews !

So then comes Gen 17:8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

And Paul refers back to Gen 17:5 in Rom 4:17

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations Gen 17:5,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Hence the Seed of Abraham in Gen 17:8

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

coincides with the Seed of Abraham here Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law[jews], but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham[gentiles]; who is the father of us all [ jew and gentile people of faith],

Which is made clear that the Seed does include Gentiles. So now this is the reason for his expanding the Everlasting Possession of Canaan from Gen 17:8 to be understood as the World in Rom 4:13,16-17 !

Now if in light of this, we still believe that the Promise of Gen 17:8 is for ethnic israel as a nation, then God has purposely sent us a strong delusion to believe a lie, which is a serious omen that He does not Love us, but that we are abiding under His hate and condemnation !929
 
Jan 21, 2013
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To say that an unregenerate person can obey the Command of God to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is a lie Acts 16:31

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Now under stand, this believing is in regards to Salvation, to be saved, and the word believe here is pisteuó and its an:

Tense: Aorist
Mood: Imperative
Voice: Active

Imperative in the greek is defined as:

The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.

Its a command here 1 Jn 3:23

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So this is to say in essence that an unregenerate person has the ability to Love God, for obeying God's Commands is an evidence of Love to God and His Christ Per Jn 14:15,21

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

1 Jn 5:3

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And so it is we believe on Him only after the Spirit reveals God's Love to us by Giving His Son on our behalf Jn 3:16 ! So Our Believing is an act of response of our Love, for we Love Him because He First Loved us 1 Jn 4:19

19 We love him, because he first loved us. Our believing is under the influence of God's Love upon our regenerated hearts Rom 5:5, unless we say that an unregenerated heart, out of an principle of Law, obeyed the Commandment to believe on the Name of the Son of God !

Faith and Love go together in Jesus Christ, this is seen in Paul's conversion 1 Tim 1:13-14

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Jn 16:27

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

1 Pet 1:8

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

Faith and Love are both fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

2 Cor 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

The word constraineth is the greek word sunechó and means:

(a) I press together, close, (b) I press on every side, confine, (c) I hold fast, (d) I urge, impel, (e) pass: I am afflicted with (sickness).

This means that it , Love of Christ/ God is that which incites to action, imparts motion to !

Remember that Believing on Christ is an Imperative which means :

The imperative mood is a command or instruction given to the hearer, charging the hearer to carry out or perform a certain action.

We can perform this action without it being legalistic only as its a response to having our Hearts incited by the Love of God from Holy Spirit having poured it out in our hearts which is New Birth Rom 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Without this, the carnal heart is not subject to the Law / Command of God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.930
 
Jan 21, 2013
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A Major flaw !


A Major flaw in the dispensational system [an anti christ system of teaching] of interpreting scripture, particularly OT prophecies to God's Chosen People Israel [Who is the Church of Christ under that dispensation] is that they reject the Apostles of the NT and their application of those prophecies and promises fulfilled in Christ and His Church, the NT Body of Christ; For the Apostles compliment the OT Prophets Eph 2:20 of which Christ was the revealed to be the cornerstone of Faith Isa 8:14-16

14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Isa 28:16

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

These are brought together by Peter 1 Peter 2:6-8

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.933
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Peter reinterprets !

Peter reinterprets Gods Abrahamic Covenant Promise of the Everlasting Possession of Canaan as to be a world wide Inheritance 2 Pet 3:13

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. See Isa 65:17;66:22 !

This is what Abraham looked for by Faith Heb 11:8-16

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
934
 
Jan 21, 2013
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Is Faith a condition for Salvation ?


Yes and No, for if we mean is faith a condition to be saved eternally from the penalty of sin, and to be Justified from all sin before God, the answer is absolutely NO ! If we mean is faith an condition in order to have self evidence of Salvation, and Justification before God in our own consciousness/minds, then Yes indeed, God given Faith is a condition for that assurance ! But now as we consider Faith as an condition for our legal standing of not guilty, and Justified from all sin and punishment before God, we then cross the line and come into a danger zone, because faith is an act, and its mans act, and since we do it, its our work, even though its an act or work that only the New Man can act or do ! The natural man cannot even do it at all ! But the issue at hand is far more serious, because we are being told by false teachers on every hand, that the act of believing [a work] from the old man [unregenerate] of sin Eph 4:22

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Were told that this act of believing by this old deceitful man is what saved one from the legal penalty of their sin, which makes this act of the old man that legal act which saved him from the penalty of his sins, instead of the Legal merits of Christ's Death and Blood alone !

The only way man can give Christ's Death all the Credit it deserves for the salvation of our souls from the penalty of eternal death for all our sins, to include unbelief, is to acknowledge that we had this free gift of Justification before God, based on Christ alone, while we were yet unbelieving, ungodly, and enemies in our hearts, even hating God, if we cannot acknowledge that, we automatically default into Justification/ Salvation by our works, something we do or have done !935
 
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Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.
That's not an issue with Christ's atonement it's an issue with the Penal model of the atonement. There are several more problems that could be pointed out with the Penal atonement theory.
 
Jan 21, 2013
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That's not an issue with Christ's atonement it's an issue with the Penal model of the atonement. There are several more problems that could be pointed out with the Penal atonement theory.
Do you understand the post ? Please rehearse it with me and explain the logic I used to prove my point even though you disagree !
 

BradC

Senior Member
Jul 13, 2013
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Is Faith a condition for Salvation ?


Yes and No, for if we mean is faith a condition to be saved eternally from the penalty of sin, and to be Justified from all sin before God, the answer is absolutely NO ! If we mean is faith an condition in order to have self evidence of Salvation, and Justification before God in our own consciousness/minds, then Yes indeed, God given Faith is a condition for that assurance ! But now as we consider Faith as an condition for our legal standing of not guilty, and Justified from all sin and punishment before God, we then cross the line and come into a danger zone, because faith is an act, and its mans act, and since we do it, its our work, even though its an act or work that only the New Man can act or do ! The natural man cannot even do it at all ! But the issue at hand is far more serious, because we are being told by false teachers on every hand, that the act of believing [a work] from the old man [unregenerate] of sin Eph 4:22

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Were told that this act of believing by this old deceitful man is what saved one from the legal penalty of their sin, which makes this act of the old man that legal act which saved him from the penalty of his sins, instead of the Legal merits of Christ's Death and Blood alone !

The only way man can give Christ's Death all the Credit it deserves for the salvation of our souls from the penalty of eternal death for all our sins, to include unbelief, is to acknowledge that we had this free gift of Justification before God, based on Christ alone, while we were yet unbelieving, ungodly, and enemies in our hearts, even hating God, if we cannot acknowledge that, we automatically default into Justification/ Salvation by our works, something we do or have done !935
You strain to comprehend how a man living in the darkness of his unregenerate soul can come to believe in the living God through the gospel. LIGHT! It takes the light of the glorious gospel through preaching to penetrate the soul and reach into the man's sin darkened heart. There in the heart is where sinful man can reject that light or believe it. In the heart is where an unjustified man believes unto the righteousness of God by faith. The light that comes from the word of the gospel is what brings conviction of sin and faith into that darkened heart so that man can believe and be justified and washed clean from all sin by the blood of the Lamb. This is the gospel we have been given as a ministry of mercy and reconciliation to preach in all the world to seek out and save the lost.