How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Here is a response an old pastor of mine said....

What if no one believed.... would Christs atonement accomplish nothing then?
Dose, (not many agree with me here), Christ came for a specific group of people to save, His sheep. Not only does God give them life, but also draws them to believe, thus accepting Christ's atonement, then Christ keeps them persevered to the end. There is no "if no one believed" then... :)
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Well that is hyper Calvinism for ya.

God desires all men to be saved, but he doesn't really he actually picks and chooses.

God hates evil and calls people everywhere to repent, but he actually causes evil and won't allow people to repent.

All prayer is meaningless, according to hyper Calvinism, as God will get his way anyway. All evangelism is meaningless, because the people he wants saved will get that way no matter what we do. No one can actually be obedient or disobedient they are just pre-programmed to do what God wants. Etc etc etc.

it is so full of absolute contradictions and logical absurdities that anyone reading the Bible openly and honest would never come to such conclusions on their own.

It is a vile doctrine of man. Not God.
I get a lot of grief for saying this..

but would you admit based on this post that God then gives up some of his sovereignty in order for us to have free-choice?
 
K

Kerry

Guest
I get a lot of grief for saying this..

but would you admit based on this post that God then gives up some of his sovereignty in order for us to have free-choice?
Absolutely not. You don't think that God knows what choice we are going to make before we make it? Do you think that God was shocked when Adam ate the fruit? He knew He would and had already determined that He Himself would become a man to redeem man. Was God shocked and dismayed when Lucifer rebelled against Him?
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
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I read the opening post a couple of times (not sure what the op is really saying) - is the thread starter a believer in universal salvation ?

I haven't read all the responses here so I may be going at this from a wrong tangent.
 

Spokenpassage

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Jan 28, 2013
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I read the opening post a couple of times (not sure what the op is really saying) - is the thread starter a believer in universal salvation ?

I haven't read all the responses here so I may be going at this from a wrong tangent.
No, he's the opposite. Believes that Christ died only for those who believe, not everybody. His death accomplished the salvation of those who believe only, not the whole world.
 

Larry_Stotle

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2014
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No, he's the opposite. Believes that Christ died only for those who believe, not everybody. His death accomplished the salvation of those who believe only, not the whole world.
Ok - thanks for commenting on that - I'm generally not a "fan" of the universalist position - I can "see" the points raised by them - but I can also see to the contrary.

Hopefully all will be saved - but that may be wishful thinking.
 

Spokenpassage

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Jan 28, 2013
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Ok - thanks for commenting on that - I'm generally not a "fan" of the universalist position - I can "see" the points raised by them - but I can also see to the contrary.

Hopefully all will be saved - but that may be wishful thinking.
No Christian should desire anyone to go to Hell, but the bible states many will go there...
 

Jda016

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Feb 19, 2014
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I get a lot of grief for saying this..

but would you admit based on this post that God then gives up some of his sovereignty in order for us to have free-choice?
The way I look at it is this:

Is a king still not sovereign over his kingdom even if a person of his kingdom commits an act contrary to his Will? I believe the answer is yes.

I guess I don't define sovereignty as having your way all the time. Christ wept over Jerusalem and said how often he desired to gather them together but that they refused to come to Him. Scripture says he desires all men everywhere to repent and desires none to perish. We know that not everyone gets saved.

I personally do not see a contradiction between God's sovereignty and man's free will.
 

Spokenpassage

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Jan 28, 2013
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Dose has been on this crusade (if you will ;)), about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility...
 

Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
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Ok - thanks for commenting on that - I'm generally not a "fan" of the universalist position - I can "see" the points raised by them - but I can also see to the contrary.

Hopefully all will be saved - but that may be wishful thinking.
Anyone who believes in universalism (that all people everywhere are saved) has to blatantly reject the words of Jesus and the apostles. There are so many scriptures against universalism that it has no legs to even stand on.

Only through the exclusivity of Christ is there any salvation.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Dose has been on this crusade (if you will ;)), about God's sovereignty and man's responsibility...
Haha yes I guess it has, not intentionally, just keeps coming up in posts.

Good thing patience is one of my virtues, I will keep making my point, though no one seems to budge.

The term "sovereign" seems to be the issue.

I don't like the king analogy because a king is not claiming to be the creator of not only all the subjects but of the entire realm and universe.

When dealing with a being that supposedly is timeless and omnipotent and omnipresent, who created every atom in the universe and set the laws of nature in motion, the standard of sovereignty is extremely high is it not?

The biblical concept of God implies that not a proton nor electron will move unless guided by Gods hand, right?
That to me is ultimate sovereignty and control over creation.

The question is does God give up some of this control to free will or chance or satan?
If he does, then by definition he is no longer "divinely sovereign". He may still be sovereign in the sense of dominion and authority, also He still has power to take back complete control.

That last part is key, as an omnipotent being He has to be responsible for every action in the universe.
Nothing occurs that He does not want by definition:
Either He has complete control thus what He wills happens.
Or
He gives up control but allows things to happen. Yet by voluntarily allowing it, that is what He wants, otherwise He would stop it by taking back control.

So though through free-choice man may be responsible for their actions, God by definition, is ultimately responsible for everything that ever takes place within His creation. Either directly or indirectly by allowing it.
 

Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
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Haha yes I guess it has, not intentionally, just keeps coming up in posts.

Good thing patience is one of my virtues, I will keep making my point, though no one seems to budge.

The term "sovereign" seems to be the issue.

I don't like the king analogy because a king is not claiming to be the creator of not only all the subjects but of the entire realm and universe.

When dealing with a being that supposedly is timeless and omnipotent and omnipresent, who created every atom in the universe and set the laws of nature in motion, the standard of sovereignty is extremely high is it not?

The biblical concept of God implies that not a proton nor electron will move unless guided by Gods hand, right?
That to me is ultimate sovereignty and control over creation.

The question is does God give up some of this control to free will or chance or satan?
If he does, then by definition he is no longer "divinely sovereign". He may still be sovereign in the sense of dominion and authority, also He still has power to take back complete control.

That last part is key, as an omnipotent being He has to be responsible for every action in the universe.
Nothing occurs that He does not want by definition:
Either He has complete control thus what He wills happens.
Or
He gives up control but allows things to happen. Yet by voluntarily allowing it, that is what He wants, otherwise He would stop it by taking back control.

So though through free-choice man may be responsible for their actions, God by definition, is ultimately responsible for everything that ever takes place within His creation. Either directly or indirectly by allowing it.
Well, that is what hyper Calvinism states. That every single action and thing that takes place is done by God. This includes every evil thing in existence.

Of course, you know, most Christians don't believe that God is the author of evil.

We know man was created in God's image and God specifically gave authority and the dominion of earth to man. Through Adam and Eve's sin this authority was lost to satan and later reclaimed by Christ through His sacrifice. Even though God gave a measure of authority to man, this doesn't mean that He was powerless. We know throughout Scripture that God intervened in the affairs of men many times, however I believe there is still some measure of authority that God allows man to wield.

I think of an army. The commander and chief has ultimate authority. Anything he says is to be done. However he chooses to make some captains, others sergeants, others lieutenants, etc. Each one is given a measure of authority to act out on. Ultimately all power comes from the Commander and Chief and his army is going to move and work the way he wants it, however those in his army have choices to make and authority to wield. It is microscopic compared to the greatness of God, but I do believe God grants man some measure of authority or free will.

It is not my best thought process, but I thought I would give it a shot for you, Dose. ;)
 

TaylorTG

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2013
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How would accepting or rejecting salvation out of free-will pervert God's justice?
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Well, that is what hyper Calvinism states. That every single action and thing that takes place is done by God. This includes every evil thing in existence.

Of course, you know, most Christians don't believe that God is the author of evil.

We know man was created in God's image and God specifically gave authority and the dominion of earth to man. Through Adam and Eve's sin this authority was lost to satan and later reclaimed by Christ through His sacrifice. Even though God gave a measure of authority to man, this doesn't mean that He was powerless. We know throughout Scripture that God intervened in the affairs of men many times, however I believe there is still some measure of authority that God allows man to wield.

I think of an army. The commander and chief has ultimate authority. Anything he says is to be done. However he chooses to make some captains, others sergeants, others lieutenants, etc. Each one is given a measure of authority to act out on. Ultimately all power comes from the Commander and Chief and his army is going to move and work the way he wants it, however those in his army have choices to make and authority to wield. It is microscopic compared to the greatness of God, but I do believe God grants man some measure of authority or free will.

It is not my best thought process, but I thought I would give it a shot for you, Dose. ;)
I thank you for your response.

I think the problem may be you are not thinking "macro" enough.

I actually do not dispute really anything you said. I would just add that you continue that line of thinking to its logical conclusion.

--> God gives man authority, yet maintains power to take back control at any moment, therefore indirectly causing it.
Plus, God made man and had direct control over dna and brain makeup which drives how man would use the given authority.

--> God is commander in chief, if a sergeant disobeys a command and the war is lost, he will be responsible for his actions. However, the commander-in-chief will bear the ultimate responsibility for losing the war.
 

Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
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I thank you for your response.

I think the problem may be you are not thinking "macro" enough.

I actually do not dispute really anything you said. I would just add that you continue that line of thinking to its logical conclusion.

--> God gives man authority, yet maintains power to take back control at any moment, therefore indirectly causing it.
Plus, God made man and had direct control over dna and brain makeup which drives how man would use the given authority.

--> God is commander in chief, if a sergeant disobeys a command and the war is lost, he will be responsible for his actions. However, the commander-in-chief will bear the ultimate responsibility for losing the war.
--> A parent can give a credit card to their child. Ultimately the parents can take the card back or freeze the account at anytime however, they trust the child with the card and the child gets the benefit from that card. I see it similar to the things and freedom that God gives us.

Each person has a different personality. For instance, I tend to be more melancholy and thus I can be prone to anxiety and fear. I don't believe God gave me fear or anxiety, rather I believe they came as a result of the Fall. But say it was in my DNA, I still have choices in whether to overcome that fear and anxiety or give Into it. We all make choices whether to give in to what feels natural or to do the opposite. We are never coded to just permanently make one choice as I am not coded to be perpetual bound by fear.

--> Well the interesting thing about God's army is that the war is already won. :) So the the disobedience of the sergeant will never be able to break God's ultimate plan which he set forth in His word. However, I do believe that if that sergeant is disobedient he will be judged for his sin. There are several parables that Jesus spoke of about masters and servants. The servant has the will to choose to obey or disobey and he is judged accordingly. I believe that those who are saved will receive a variation of rewards or "treasure stored in Heaven" based on their willingness to obey and continually choose God over selfish desires.
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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--> A parent can give a credit card to their child. Ultimately the parents can take the card back or freeze the account at anytime however, they trust the child with the card and the child gets the benefit from that card. I see it similar to the things and freedom that God gives us.

Each person has a different personality. For instance, I tend to be more melancholy and thus I can be prone to anxiety and fear. I don't believe God gave me fear or anxiety, rather I believe they came as a result of the Fall. But say it was in my DNA, I still have choices in whether to overcome that fear and anxiety or give Into it. We all make choices whether to give in to what feels natural or to do the opposite. We are never coded to just permanently make one choice as I am not coded to be perpetual bound by fear.

--> Well the interesting thing about God's army is that the war is already won. :) So the the disobedience of the sergeant will never be able to break God's ultimate plan which he set forth in His word. However, I do believe that if that sergeant is disobedient he will be judged for his sin. There are several parables that Jesus spoke of about masters and servants. The servant has the will to choose to obey or disobey and he is judged accordingly. I believe that those who are saved will receive a variation of rewards or "treasure stored in Heaven" based on their willingness to obey and continually choose God over selfish desires.
- Who allowed the Fall?

-So our free-will given to us can't change a pre-determined future? That is essentially saying God is still in total control, our choices are simply part of His plan, thus He really doesn't give up any of His sovereignty.

Which is it, does God give us free-choice or not?
 

Linda70

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Aug 30, 2013
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Not once in the nearly 1,300 pages of his Institutes does Calvin expound upon God’s love for mankind or attempt to explain how God, who is love, could take pleasure in damning billions whom He could save if He so desired…. Biblically, God’s sovereignty is exercised only in perfect unity with His total character. His sovereignty is enforced in harmony with His love, grace, mercy, kindness, justice, and truth—but Calvin has almost nothing to say about these attributes, because they cannot be reconciled with his theory.

Calvinism’s perversion of sovereignty demands that whether one goes to heaven or hell depends solely upon God’s will and decree; a man’s receiving or rejecting Christ is not by his free choice but is irresistibly imposed upon him by God. As a result, the atheist feels justified in rejecting a God who, contrary to basic human compassion, predestines multitudes to eternal torment whom He could just as well have predestined to eternal joy in His presence.

Who Are the Elect and Why?
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Not once in the nearly 1,300 pages of his Institutes does Calvin expound upon God’s love for mankind or attempt to explain how God, who is love, could take pleasure in damning billions whom He could save if He so desired…. Biblically, God’s sovereignty is exercised only in perfect unity with His total character. His sovereignty is enforced in harmony with His love, grace, mercy, kindness, justice, and truth—but Calvin has almost nothing to say about these attributes, because they cannot be reconciled with his theory.

Calvinism’s perversion of sovereignty demands that whether one goes to heaven or hell depends solely upon God’s will and decree; a man’s receiving or rejecting Christ is not by his free choice but is irresistibly imposed upon him by God. As a result, the atheist feels justified in rejecting a God who, contrary to basic human compassion, predestines multitudes to eternal torment whom He could just as well have predestined to eternal joy in His presence.

Who Are the Elect and Why?
I want you to ask two personal questions.

Have you read the institutes?

And have you read the bible concerning the doctrines of grace in this view?

You can call Calvin names. disagree with the theology, and falsely accuse him of something...That's you! But when you call it a theory, just note - it's named after him because he preached it, not invent it.
 

Jda016

Senior Member
Feb 19, 2014
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- Who allowed the Fall?

-So our free-will given to us can't change a pre-determined future? That is essentially saying God is still in total control, our choices are simply part of His plan, thus He really doesn't give up any of His sovereignty.

Which is it, does God give us free-choice or not?
Adam and Eve disobeyed God with a perfectly free will given to them. Did God allow Them to disobey? Yes. Why did he allow it? Because if he didnt allow it, then Adam and Eve would not have had perfectly free will. Does that make sense?

We don't have free will to abort God's ultimate plan for creation or the prophecies that have been fulfilled in the Bible. However, I do believe we have free will in the sense of whether we want to be a part of what God is doing or not. We can either choose him or deny him (though some disagree). This is the freedom we have. We didn't choose where we were born ( though we can choose where to live) or what hair color we would have (unless you dye it ;)). We didn't choose our physical attributes (though we could work out at a gym and change some of them to a degree). We didn't choose our parents (though we can choose to love and accept them or hate them). We can't choose how other people would treat us (though we can choose how we react to them).

In many things we didn't have a choice, but at the same time in many different things we do. I am not sure i can give you an "either or" answer as I don't think it would be correct.

I will continue with you tomorrow if you wish and if you are not too frustrated by my replies. :) But I best be off to bed. Your a night owl too, I see!

Love you Dose! :D