How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

[faroukfarouk]

no, i dont believe the false doctrine of original sin,is that part of the gospel too?i dont think so.i got saved in jail 25 yrs ago,do you think i was looking around for someone else to blame my sin on?lol and denying the false penal substitution theory of the atonement is not denying that Jesus died for my sins. is that any clearer for you?

Romans 3.12: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.'

 

[Linda70]

Romans 3.12: 'All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.'

It was probably a typo, but the verse you quoted isn't Romans 3:12, it is Romans 3:23

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[faroukfarouk]

It was probably a typo, but the verse you quoted isn't Romans 3:12, it is Romans 3:23

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Thanks, yes; it's the reference I thought I typed, and I'm puzzled how it came to be this way. So, yes, thanks!

 

[newbirth]

Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.

This analogy is so weak because it assumes that man has paid the penalty for sin. Christ paid the price with death, so those who believe on him have become dead to sin and should walk in newness of life. If you are drowning and someone pulls you out of the water and you jump back into the water will you not drown. That is why he gave us the power to say no to sin...
Romans 6:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[svedbygrace]

newbirth

it assumes that man has paid the penalty for sin.

No it doesn't, that's a lie. Please rehearse with me each point in the post !

 

[newbirth]

newbirth



No it doesn't, that's a lie. Please rehearse with me each point in the post !

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this:

Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes.Before God all men are guilty of sin and are justly sentenced to death.Jesus paid the price by dying in our place. So we never paid anything. He did not pay for us to continue in sin but to start fresh in newness of life

Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. Upon release a man is not arrested and tried for the same sin that Christ paid for. If the man obeys Christ and walks in the light of the gospel he is hid in Christ and the blood of Christ cleans him from sin. But if he disobeys Christ, sin will be found in him. If he turns again from sin and obey Christ he will be forgiven.
Romans 6:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.Justice was not served for us to start a life of crime to be paid for by the blood of Christ

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice. It is not the same sin you were purged from those old sins
[h=3]2 Peter 1:8-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

 

[newbirth]

no, i dont believe the false doctrine of original sin,is that part of the gospel too?i dont think so.i got saved in jail 25 yrs ago,do you think i was looking around for someone else to blame my sin on?lol and denying the false penal substitution theory of the atonement is not denying that Jesus died for my sins. is that any clearer for you?

[h=3]Romans 5:11-12[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[gregfl]

Romans 5:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

and so death passed upon all men,or sin?

 

[newbirth]

I do disagree that Jesus died for all. Simply because of the same conclusion, not everyone is saved. Not a single drop of blood will be wasted on someone who didn't believe. Jesus died for the believer, not the forever rebellious. If God's wrath was satisfied on the cross, then it must mean that He died for a group of people, and those people are the believing ones.

Christ died for you even before you believed why would you want to close the door on someone who has not believed yet?He paid the price for all, but only those who believe shall be saved. Should I be angry because I believed the first time I heard and one who was rebellious all his life, believed when he was 75yrs old and we get the same forgiveness.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[newbirth]

and so death passed upon all men,or sin?

death by sin
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Spokenpassage]

Christ died for you even before you believed why would you want to close the door on someone who has not believed yet?He paid the price for all, but only those who believe shall be saved. Should I angry because I believed the first time I heard and one who was rebellious all his life, believed when he was 75yrs old and we get the same forgiveness.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Look, we agree that Jesus' death is only effective to those who believe right? Romans 8:1. God predestined those who He would die for too be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:28-30). So yes Christ died for me, His sheep, before I believed, so that I would be drawn to the gospel (John 6:44), to receive it by faith alone, by grace alone, through Christ alone (John 10:27-28).

 

[newbirth]

Why did God save us? For all the promises of heavenly places and riches in glory means nothing to us without life eternal.
We have a part to play in God's plan.

Phil 3
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

[SUP]11 [/SUP]If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

[SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[homwardbound]

James 5
[SUP]19 [/SUP]My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth[SUP](AL)[/SUP] and someone should bring that person back,[SUP](AM)[/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save[SUP](AN)[/SUP] them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.[SUP](AO)[/SUP]

So maybe, we might need to understand how to do this
[h=3]Romans 2:4[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
I see it by Faith and listening, in kindness not condemnation, anyway, that is what changed me Father's love

 

[homwardbound]

I do not agree for this reason.

If Jesus death for everyone is all it takes for someone to be saved then you are right.

The reality is however is that His death only benefits those who accept it and everything that comes with it.

So Jesus dies for everyone so that everyone has a chance, but only those who obey him actually gain from His sacrifice.

Joh 15:13 No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

It seems you assume that just because Jesus died for all means that all automatically are forgiven. This is not the case. Only those who accept the conditions will have mercy.

But because Jesus died for all no one will ever be able to say God was unfair, because they all could have been saved but they chose not to by not obeying all that Jesus said.

If Jesus did not open His sacrifice for all then they would have a legitimate plea of miss justice. but because Jesus died for all no one can plead any such thing.

And so therefore mankind will have no excuse at Judgment not even one, Father is righteous and the only one, just as Jesus said this in Matt. 19 to that rich man that obeyed all the Laws from Birth on nad yet was still not perfect what? And he walked away sad
The Disciples perplexed asked then how is it possble Jesus for anoyner to enter Heaven. I am right now in the view of we can't and we have given up much
What did Christ say in response to that ?
Mark 10:27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Matthew 19:23 [ With God All Things Are Possible ] Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[homwardbound]

I do disagree that Jesus died for all. Simply because of the same conclusion, not everyone is saved. Not a single drop of blood will be wasted on someone who didn't believe. Jesus died for the believer, not the forever rebellious. If God's wrath was satisfied on the cross, then it must mean that He died for a group of people, and those people are the believing ones.

Yet does not all have the chance to believe or not believe? otherwise how can Father be fair? Would you see Father as fair, since we all are first born in and of the flesh from the womb as Son's of Adam, in need of new life in Spirit and truth the exact reason Christ came to earth for?
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
1 Corinthians 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[homwardbound]

Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.

No9w from a view from this side of the cross, those that are guilty and know they are and have turned from their selfishness and self-righteousness know this once freed to not take:
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

 

[homwardbound]

Agreed ! All those whom God's wrath for sin has been satisfied for, they are by and through that satisfaction delivered from the wages and consequences of sin, which is death Rom 6:23 therefore they are delivered from unbelief which is nothing but a consequence of spiritual death for sin, hence the end consequences for all whom have by the death and satisfaction of Christ for them been delivered from death, shall be given Faith to believe on Christ as an evidence !

Yes truth, so are those that take it for granted safe? or they just never really believed in the first place
Do you take it for granted, and still sin ever on purpose. God knows and I am at rest in that no need to answer,

 

[homwardbound]

if Gods wrath was satisfied on the cross?hmmmmm
spoken,i challenge you to find one verse in the bible that says that,heres a hint,you wont.why,because its not there.its one of the errors of the penal substitution theory of the atonement. study up

Father through Son did die for all to receive new life in Spirit and truth, by the resurrected Christ. If one finalizes they are forgiven and asks for the new life, with the right motive(s), and Father's gives it and Father does not as well, Father knowing who is who and the purpose of each
For:
Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

maybe it is time to pleads for this Mercy over any and all self-righteousness?

 

[homwardbound]

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:36

Yepl, wait? that is too easy and that burden is light
Matthew 11:30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[homwardbound]

that verse doesnt do it,try again

So to beleive doesn't bring in the total complete God of Mercy?
Where as like the man that pleaded Mercy, got it, and then did not have Mercy on others, in being thankful to the Mercy received
Was this man brought back before the Judge? There is a parable on this in the word right?