How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

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Dec 9, 2013
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Okay a better word "in spite of" so why did Jesus do this, go to the cross, being perfect?
Or do you not believe Jesus to be perfect?
thank you for your honest answers
I don't know if Jesus was perfect, what does perfection actually look like? Isn't it subjective to the standard being used?

He went to the cross for crimes against Jewish law, namely blasphemy and stirring up the people. According to roman law, he was innocent, at least based on the reports of pilot.

Your claim that he is perfect is tied to your belief that he is God, as God by definition is perfect. However, this is a belief based on faith with some confirming evidence. If I do not take it on faith then I do not see any good reason to think that this man Jesus was not human like everyone else. Then the question of perfection becomes subjective.

As far as His death being for my sins, that is also taken on faith, based mostly on the words of Paul (earliest writings).
Evidence of personal experience and changes in one's life are strong indications of the effect belief on these words will have but they are not conclusive evidence of causation between the death of Jesus and forgiveness of sins/new life. (In my humble opinion)
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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arminians make God unjust?hmmm calvinists are predestined to believe a false doctrine,arminians freely choose to do so?lol
they both fall into a ditch lol
Nice play on words :)

Here is some more irony when it comes to concept of free will ....
[video=youtube;BH2G7fkXAc8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH2G7fkXAc8[/video]
 
K

Kerry

Guest
I don't know if Jesus was perfect, what does perfection actually look like? Isn't it subjective to the standard being used?

He went to the cross for crimes against Jewish law, namely blasphemy and stirring up the people. According to roman law, he was innocent, at least based on the reports of pilot.

Your claim that he is perfect is tied to your belief that he is God, as God by definition is perfect. However, this is a belief based on faith with some confirming evidence. If I do not take it on faith then I do not see any good reason to think that this man Jesus was not human like everyone else. Then the question of perfection becomes subjective.

As far as His death being for my sins, that is also taken on faith, based mostly on the words of Paul (earliest writings).
Evidence of personal experience and changes in one's life are strong indications of the effect belief on these words will have but they are not conclusive evidence of causation between the death of Jesus and forgiveness of sins/new life. (In my humble opinion)
So I see, Dose. So you would rather take mans word, when the word of God is in your face. Exactly what Paul said that being carnally minded cannot understand the things of God. That's why Jesus said those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. You are bound in your flesh and can only see as a carnal man. Now your making sense.

All of the world denied Israel, but they knew they had something. When they marched against Jericho, the people were so afraid that they hid in the walls of there city. Rahab said we have heard how your God brought you out of Egypt and the men are terrified of you. Then asked if they would save her at that moment God saved her.

Why were they so afraid of escaping slaves? From the most powerful nation on Earth? What does your logic say to that?
 
K

Kerry

Guest
And their still denying them now imagine after thousands of years it's the Jews and now the Christians that they want to demonize and kill.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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So I see, Dose. So you would rather take mans word, when the word of God is in your face. Exactly what Paul said that being carnally minded cannot understand the things of God. That's why Jesus said those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. You are bound in your flesh and can only see as a carnal man. Now your making sense.

All of the world denied Israel, but they knew they had something. When they marched against Jericho, the people were so afraid that they hid in the walls of there city. Rahab said we have heard how your God brought you out of Egypt and the men are terrified of you. Then asked if they would save her at that moment God saved her.

Why were they so afraid of escaping slaves? From the most powerful nation on Earth? What does your logic say to that?
Logic says you just jumped from one topic to another with no transition :confused:

Anyway yes given the truth of God's word, what I say seems foolish. I used to look at it that way too, but try to look at things objectively outside the box. Everything makes sense BECAUSE you know the word is truth, WHY do you think the word is truth? What reasons do you have to believe the premise to begin with.

As far as joshua, jericho, and the ancient Israelites .... Logic and reason and investigation tells me that these are stories probably written by Jewish scribes around the Babylonian exile where Jews would have been exposed to literacy and education. Archaeology reveals little evidence of Israelite's in Egypt or of any Canaan conquest.
(I realize I have not provided sources so feel free to refute this by providing any counter evidence)
 
K

Kerry

Guest
Dose, I cannot even pretend to present the gospel as it should be presented. I know that at some point you were in church or else yopu wouldn't know the things you know. I was a church brat myself and I knew all kinds of things about the bible. The longest verse the shortest verse, the longest chapter the shortest chapter and so on. I knew to do this on Sunday and how to eat the wafer and drink the juice. But, I did not know Jesus and that is totally different thing than church.
 
Dec 9, 2013
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Dose, I cannot even pretend to present the gospel as it should be presented. I know that at some point you were in church or else yopu wouldn't know the things you know. I was a church brat myself and I knew all kinds of things about the bible. The longest verse the shortest verse, the longest chapter the shortest chapter and so on. I knew to do this on Sunday and how to eat the wafer and drink the juice. But, I did not know Jesus and that is totally different thing than church.
How do you know you know Jesus now? Is it based on your prayer and worship you do alone? Having quiet time with God and hearing Him speak to you?

Yes I understand the difference between being born again and simply being raised in church.
I was both, as a child I was raised in church but I was not one to do things just because I was told to. I rebelled a lot. Then I made it personal when I became born again, I then understood why I needed to do those things in church.
Later I decided to study what I believed and read books and watched debates and researched other religions.
Like many athiests who were believers, I wanted to justify my belief but in doing that it only led to questioning the very premise of my worldview.
The gospel is completely predicated on the concept of this all-knowing all-powerful eternal transcendent being who manifested Himself into our reality. At face value based on all of history as evidence, what is the likelihood that this is true?
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Dose, if you aren't drawn to God, neither are you a believer, then you were never born again. You may think you were born again, but the scriptures make it clear that someone born again doesn't fall away. Being born again is being born of the Spirit, something you cannot do on your own. Just as you couldn't decide to be born the first time. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going, so is everyone born again (John 3:8).

If you're a rebel in heart right now, you were a rebel before just dressed it up with a little religion.
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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Dose, if you aren't drawn to God, neither are you a believer, then you were never born again. You may think you were born again, but the scriptures make it clear that someone born again doesn't fall away. Being born again is being born of the Spirit, something you cannot do on your own. Just as you couldn't decide to be born the first time. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going, so is everyone born again (John 3:8).

If you're a rebel in heart right now, you were a rebel before just dressed it up with a little religion.
I accept that as it does seem to be scriptural. However, why then do my experiences match up with many other believers?

How can you explain how a person can honestly reach out and ask for forgiveness and give their life to Christ and not be saved?

In my opinion observational evidence would support that someone's salvation is based on their current belief/behavior.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
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I accept that as it does seem to be scriptural. However, why then do my experiences match up with many other believers?

How can you explain how a person can honestly reach out and ask for forgiveness and give their life to Christ and not be saved?

In my opinion observational evidence would support that someone's salvation is based on their current belief/behavior.
It's bad enough that a lot of people claim to be saved, we should not even compare ourselves with each other.

Matthew 13:3-5, 20-21 NASB

"And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.

"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away."

Dose, if you truly want to believe, let God break down that barrier, and surrender to Him. Put away your standards that you want your Creator to meet. Turn from your sin and believe. It's much more than giving your life in a prayer. Tbh that's not where salvation comes from, it's from turning from your sins and believing in the Lord Jesus.
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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It's bad enough that a lot of people claim to be saved, we should not even compare ourselves with each other.

Matthew 13:3-5, 20-21 NASB

"And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.

"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away."

Dose, if you truly want to believe, let God break down that barrier, and surrender to Him. Put away your standards that you want your Creator to meet. Turn from your sin and believe. It's much more than giving your life in a prayer. Tbh that's not where salvation comes from, it's from turning from your sins and believing in the Lord Jesus.
In the present sense. You then assume I didn't do that before, otherwise I would still be doing that right?

All christians turn from their sin, yet at the same time will continue to struggle in sin. Isn't the key difference the act of confessing and repenting and a desire not to sin?

I spent years "desiring not to sin" yet sinning anyways as is the case for all christians.
As of now I sin not much more than I did as a believer, except now I do not feel any need to confess or apologize for normal natural behavior.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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In the present sense. You then assume I didn't do that before, otherwise I would still be doing that right?

All christians turn from their sin, yet at the same time will continue to struggle in sin. Isn't the key difference the act of confessing and repenting and a desire not to sin?

I spent years "desiring not to sin" yet sinning anyways as is the case for all christians.
As of now I sin not much more than I did as a believer, except now I do not feel any need to confess or apologize for normal natural behavior.
It still sounds to me like it was a religious rather than spiritual. I could be wrong. Also, you claim to not sin as much as before, but you do realize that any 'good' thing you do outside of faith, outside of God, and never wrought from and for His glory is as filthy as the evil that you do? If you have no conviction of any sin or even a coming to Christ, then you are reprobated, something a Christian never gets. It is getting kinda clearer the more you tell me.
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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It still sounds to me like it was a religious rather than spiritual. I could be wrong. Also, you claim to not sin as much as before, but you do realize that any 'good' thing you do outside of faith, outside of God, and never wrought from and for His glory is as filthy as the evil that you do? If you have no conviction of any sin or even a coming to Christ, then you are reprobated, something a Christian never gets. It is getting kinda clearer the more you tell me.
Yes lets get to the logical conclusion:
1) I was never a christian to begin with, I did and said what the bible teaches about salvation but the Holy Spirit never truly regenerated me.

Or

2) I was a christian and I am not now. If that poses a possible contradiction with what the bible teaches about the preservation of the saints, then so be it. The validity of what the Bible says is then in question.
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
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Yes lets get to the logical conclusion:
1) I was never a christian to begin with, I did and said what the bible teaches about salvation but the Holy Spirit never truly regenerated me.

Or

2) I was a christian and I am not now. If that poses a possible contradiction with what the bible teaches about the preservation of the saints, then so be it. The validity of what the Bible says is then in question.

Here I'll try to help you using scripture, that is more appropriate.

1 John 2:18-25 NASB

"Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

"But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

"This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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It is possible that the Lord is still using you. Somehow I think He is. You don't have to be against God Dose. Repent now and believe, keep trusting in Him! You might be in a period of hardening before actually being saved.
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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It is possible that the Lord is still using you. Somehow I think He is. You don't have to be against God Dose. Repent now and believe, keep trusting in Him! You might be in a period of hardening before actually being saved.
Yes I would hope that if christianity is true that I would still be forgiven by God and that He would bring me back to Him

I am not against God, I am not in rebellion, I simply am in a place where i cannot believe based on my current knowledge.

I could go through the motions and repent if I wanted to. I could go to church and feel the same sense of peace during worship but in my mind I would not be convinced it was true or real.

Would you be willing to admit the possibility that its not real, God is a concept in our minds, the feeling of the Holy Spirit is a product of complex brains?
 

Spokenpassage

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,955
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Dose, I have been through a moment like that before being a Christian. I find it unnatural, and not of God, because every instance I attempted it, it brought me back to acknowledging there is a God and He is magnificent in everything. Pagans couldn't even resist it completely, instead they either worshipped the creation, or made up ideas. Though they suppressed the truth, they had the engraved natural desire to worship something.

I'm talking about truth here! Not feelings. Feelings are mutable, God is immutable. You are in rebellion by not honoring, thanking, acknowledging, and giving glory to your Creator.

You must be born again. I will continue to pray for you, because I think you will have your eyes open to give up this rebellion.
 
Dec 9, 2013
753
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Dose, I have been through a moment like that before being a Christian. I find it unnatural, and not of God, because every instance I attempted it, it brought me back to acknowledging there is a God and He is magnificent in everything. Pagans couldn't even resist it completely, instead they either worshipped the creation, or made up ideas. Though they suppressed the truth, they had the engraved natural desire to worship something.

I'm talking about truth here! Not feelings. Feelings are mutable, God is immutable. You are in rebellion by not honoring, thanking, acknowledging, and giving glory to your Creator.

You must be born again. I will continue to pray for you, because I think you will have your eyes open to give up this rebellion.
I thank you for your prayers, I will not pray for you but i wish you well and hope that you will one day step back and question the reality of your beliefs. :)
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Dose, if you aren't drawn to God, neither are you a believer, then you were never born again. You may think you were born again, but the scriptures make it clear that someone born again doesn't fall away. Being born again is being born of the Spirit, something you cannot do on your own. Just as you couldn't decide to be born the first time. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going, so is everyone born again (John 3:8).

If you're a rebel in heart right now, you were a rebel before just dressed it up with a little religion.
James 5
[SUP]19 [/SUP]My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth[SUP](AL)[/SUP] and someone should bring that person back,[SUP](AM)[/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save[SUP](AN)[/SUP] them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.[SUP](AO)[/SUP]