How freewill salvation perverts God's Justice !

[homwardbound]

True, but it is implied.

The verse clearly states that if one goes from non-belief to belief, then the wrath of God no longer abides on them.

So either the wrath of God was satisfied on the cross for believers or the very act of "believing" satisfies God's wrath.

I see this through Son we are smothered and covered by the blood, the wrath of Father that we deserve to get is taken away in by the blood.
Ex: Moses on his way to free the Hebrews God came to kill him and Zeporrah his wife circumcised Moses' first born and threw the blood on Moses and God left Moses alone, see the covering?
Exodus 4
And today through Son it is done, for us by the blood of Christ, who deserve death

Time to appreciate this you think and ask God to show us how to walk by Faith as Christ did?

 

[homwardbound]

satisfy Gods wrath?hmmm

cant find any verses mentioning that,must be implied right?

John 1:29 [ The Lamb of God ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

And this is done today we are after the cross, not before

 

[homwardbound]

Wrong time step in with a wrong correction. We got people calling other people gnostics, non Christians, and heretics.

That might be because you know the selfish flesh is right and all others that do not agree are wrong right?

 

[svedbygrace]

Arminaians make God Unjust ! 2


Those who teach that Christ died for people who are yet going to hell for any reason to be punished for anything whatsover as these Matt 25:41; 7:23 they make God Unjust in that He is to everlastingly punish those who have been been Permanently Sanctified by the Death of Christ and Perfected forever Heb 10:10,14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering[Meaning His Death] of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 For by one offering [Meaning His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

For any of these He died for to be punished for anything, God is Unjust !940

 

[homwardbound]

Dose, I cannot even pretend to present the gospel as it should be presented. I know that at some point you were in church or else yopu wouldn't know the things you know. I was a church brat myself and I knew all kinds of things about the bible. The longest verse the shortest verse, the longest chapter the shortest chapter and so on. I knew to do this on Sunday and how to eat the wafer and drink the juice. But, I did not know Jesus and that is totally different thing than church.

A big Amen to that Kerry
Being in Christ, sitting in a pew or behind the pulpit, makes one no more a Christian in Christ than going to a Hen house religiously a Hen

 

[homwardbound]

How do you know you know Jesus now? Is it based on your prayer and worship you do alone? Having quiet time with God and hearing Him speak to you?

Yes I understand the difference between being born again and simply being raised in church.
I was both, as a child I was raised in church but I was not one to do things just because I was told to. I rebelled a lot. Then I made it personal when I became born again, I then understood why I needed to do those things in church.
Later I decided to study what I believed and read books and watched debates and researched other religions.
Like many athiests who were believers, I wanted to justify my belief but in doing that it only led to questioning the very premise of my worldview.
The gospel is completely predicated on the concept of this all-knowing all-powerful eternal transcendent being who manifested Himself into our reality. At face value based on all of history as evidence, what is the likelihood that this is true?

It can only be revealed by the creator of all, God the Father of Christ, and it is only through Christ that it is revealed and not through religion. Was a rebellious brat as well; Still am but on the opposite side that I was, as Jesus was accused of heresy as well.
Bottom line: Godjustloveyou. This I know_____________________________ and I bet this thought crossed your mind, for the Bible tells me so


No not so, "God told me so" through the experiences, he has shown me with the miracles that I have seen
God is the one that causes one to stand or not and is righteous no matter what, knowing our motives
This is what I personally trust in. god through Son's sacrifice for me alone, no other way I see to be free, tried the works way and failed, failed and failed, it did not work for me. So I came to the cross road, and decided to just trust God and stop me doing the works to please others and God
Now to each their own,

 

[homwardbound]

Dose, if you aren't drawn to God, neither are you a believer, then you were never born again. You may think you were born again, but the scriptures make it clear that someone born again doesn't fall away. Being born again is being born of the Spirit, something you cannot do on your own. Just as you couldn't decide to be born the first time. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going, so is everyone born again (John 3:8).

If you're a rebel in heart right now, you were a rebel before just dressed it up with a little religion.

Did Peter ever do wrong after the reception of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost? We know he did before, but afterwards did he?
The battle is what? Flesh self, verses who?

 

[homwardbound]

It still sounds to me like it was a religious rather than spiritual. I could be wrong. Also, you claim to not sin as much as before, but you do realize that any 'good' thing you do outside of faith, outside of God, and never wrought from and for His glory is as filthy as the evil that you do? If you have no conviction of any sin or even a coming to Christ, then you are reprobated, something a Christian never gets. It is getting kinda clearer the more you tell me.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

All things by father through Son are cleansed, so what one does with this is up to each person?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

So are all things cleansed or not? If not then whatever is not is sin to you. So whatever anyone is freed in should we flaunt it?






[h=3]Romans 14:15-23[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. [SUP]21 [/SUP]It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes lets get to the logical conclusion:
1) I was never a christian to begin with, I did and said what the bible teaches about salvation but the Holy Spirit never truly regenerated me.

Or

2) I was a christian and I am not now. If that poses a possible contradiction with what the bible teaches about the preservation of the saints, then so be it. The validity of what the Bible says is then in question.

I think what is in ? is interpretation of the whole entire word. As I see the whole from Genesis to Revelation.
One Gigantic Love Story to us all period, as I today see what God is Love, beyong mankinds interpretations

 

[homwardbound]

Yes I would hope that if christianity is true that I would still be forgiven by God and that He would bring me back to Him

I am not against God, I am not in rebellion, I simply am in a place where i cannot believe based on my current knowledge.

I could go through the motions and repent if I wanted to. I could go to church and feel the same sense of peace during worship but in my mind I would not be convinced it was true or real.

Would you be willing to admit the possibility that its not real, God is a concept in our minds, the feeling of the Holy Spirit is a product of complex brains?

Dose, love you, you are real, and I see Father is revealing himself to you. And wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! when this comes full circle. for I know there is trying to believe and be accepted, which is not real, it is an act to be patted on the back. been there myself and see it as it is.
Knowing this today, in place of being seen of men as to be rewarded as Christ rebuked this motive as he walked here on earth. The religionists attacked and went against him, for while he was not of the motive to steal, their glory, he by not making himself the center of attention became exactly that.
So more and more people were following after him, not going to Synagogue, title changed today to Church. So they plotted to kill him, one that just plainly gave love to all and hung around the worst sort of sinners, and just loving them, letting them choose truth over error
So seeing this not to be the center of attention, and to be humble and not try to be the one, as Christ to me is the one and only way to the live he lived here on earth, not ever fighting in and from his flesh being he was clothed in.
Today he is no longer known in the flesh, rather in Spirit and truth, whom I see to worship by trusting God's love as in 1 cor. 13:4-13 to be poured out in and through me and know this is truth, beyond measure
God just love you is the starting point for us all, started at his death for us that he could have refuted, yet chose not to, why?
Was it to give us new life thoughts in Spirit and truth by his resurrected being?
We all have free choice to decide what is truth and what is error

So since i see truth is to set us free, then error must keep one in bondage you think?
So if I am in bondage and not free to love as God does in 1 Cor 13:4-13, then there has to be error in the truth Father has given us through Son Jesus Christ
And I am not saying I won't ever sin again, that is arrogant, prideful and proud, and think I am perfect when only Father is. So by belief, in what Son has done, we are made one with Father and Son. The Holy Spirit of truth, connects us to this truth we all are one, yet many parts, like our bodies are many parts yet one body
Thank you for anyone reading and hearing as Father does the revealing of this truth in Father through Son. Making us one. as said in John 16, might be 17, but truth id truth and that can never be changed
Nothing can separate us any of us from God's love, and is light that has past tense overcome the darkness, forever, Chirst being the high priest that lives for ever by the resurrection, which justifies us in Spirit and truth

 

[homwardbound]

I thank you for your prayers, I will not pray for you but i wish you well and hope that you will one day step back and question the reality of your beliefs.

If one is in bondage and not freed to love as God loves in 1 Cor 13:4-13 then there is error in ones truth and might need to rethink the truth that they have attached onto
Just saying God came here to earth to set us free in the form of Son, known today as Christ the Messiah

 

[homwardbound]

God loves you man!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So provided we believe we will be saved is God a liar or man
If one decides to beleive God will God just leave us alone or take up the work to show us truth over error to set us free in Love his type 1 Cor 13:4-13

 

[homwardbound]

I do disagree that Jesus died for all. Simply because of the same conclusion, not everyone is saved. Not a single drop of blood will be wasted on someone who didn't believe. Jesus died for the believer, not the forever rebellious. If God's wrath was satisfied on the cross, then it must mean that He died for a group of people, and those people are the believing ones.

So is God not fair? Did you I or anyone else born here ask to be born here?
God is fair and did die for all, then rose again and is alive, to beleive or not is all that Father left for us to come to and make the conscious choice in,
So either one will be purged from the sin consciousness or they won't as many are not purged as of yet, and act as if they have to be forgiven over and over again.
When there is nowhere in the new Testament; to ask for more forgiveness after Christ's death the forgiveness issue is over
Now for those that are going to use 1 John 1:9. tell me where does it say to do it over and over again? Where is this at, after the death of Christ on the cross. where is it said to ask for more forgiveness after Christ's forgiveness at the cross
Is it finished as he said or not in John 19:30?

 

[homwardbound]

Those false teachers that tell us that Jesus Christ die for all the sinners amongst mankind, and yet they say multitudes for whom He did die, go to hell in unbelief and in their sins Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins[plural].

They do pervert God's Justice and here's how; For its liken unto this: Say a man was found guilty of a multitude of crimes against the State, in this he is justly sentenced to serve 25yrs as his punishment for those crimes. Upon release 25 yrs later, the following few days, he is again arrested and tried and found guilty of those same crimes, and sentenced to 25 yrs again as his just due punishment. That would be unjust would it not ? Was not Justice already served for those Crimes ? Of course it has, this is just a miscarriage of Justice, by convicting a criminal twice for the same crimes, and punishing him for the same, after justice has already been satisfied for those crimes.

Yet this is the conclusion we must come to, once we teach that those for whom Christ died, died for all their sins, satisfying all of God's Law and Justice for their crimes against His Holy Law, and now yet again they are made liable for those same crimes or sins, and this makes God a perverter of Justice.

So what about this where John says:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

and when he went to the cross, what did this do for us all?
Cleansed the deck for all is all it did. leaving one thing left to believe or not.
If beleive And God knows who really do, so these receive new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ not the dead one, that many seem to only look at.

 

[homwardbound]

if Gods wrath was satisfied on the cross?hmmmmm
spoken,i challenge you to find one verse in the bible that says that,heres a hint,you wont.why,because its not there.its one of the errors of the penal substitution theory of the atonement. study up

Matt. 5:17, to John 19:30 to Hebrews 9:15-17 in a nutshell

 

[Spokenpassage]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So provided we believe we will be saved is God a liar or man
If one decides to beleive God will God just leave us alone or take up the work to show us truth over error to set us free in Love his type 1 Cor 13:4-13

Read the next verses, 17-21, those who don't believe are condemned because they loved darkness rather than Light, for their deeds were evil, for they hate the Light and won't come to it, because it exposes their deeds. Those who practice truth come to the Light.

All men fall into this category of wickedness, but of us who believe, God brought us out of darkness. We cannot exclude ourselves from John 3:17-20 by claiming we are better because we chose God. That's completely inaccurate. We were as wicked and dead in sin as those people mentioned in those verses. We traded God's glory for a lie, we are all by nature sons of wrath. Only God can rescue us, and only God gets that glory.

Homwardbound, it's man who is dead in sin, he cannot seek God because He doesn't want to! As Jesus put it, everyone who commits a sin is the slave to sin (John 8:34).

 

[CWJ]

1 Corinthians 13:4-13

LOVE - suffereth long, and is kind;
LOVE - envieth not;
LOVE - vaunteth not itself,
- Is not puffed up,
- Doth not behave itself unseemly,
- seeketh not her own,
- is not easily provoked,
- thinketh no evil;
- Rejoiceth not in iniquity, BUT
- rejoiceth in the truth;
- Beareth all things,
- believeth all things,
- hopeth all things,
- endureth all things.

LOVE - never faileth:

PRAISE GOD!

but whether there be prophecies - they shall fail;
whether there be tongues - they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge - it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and
we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part - shall be done away.

When I was a child,
I spake as a child,
I understood as a child,
I thought as a child:
but when I became a man,
I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly;
but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.

PRAISE GOD!

And now abideth - faith, hope, Love, these three;
but the greatest of these is - LOVE.'

 

[CWJ]

Spokenpassage:
Read the next verses, 17-21, those who don't believe are condemned because they loved darkness rather than Light, for their deeds were evil, for they hate the Light and won't come to it, because it exposes their deeds. Those who practice truth come to the Light.

All men fall into this category of wickedness, but of us who believe, God brought us out of darkness. We cannot exclude ourselves from John 3:17-20 by claiming we are better because we chose God. That's completely inaccurate. We were as wicked and dead in sin as those people mentioned in those verses. We traded God's glory for a lie, we are all by nature sons of wrath. Only God can rescue us, and only God gets that glory.

Homwardbound, it's man who is dead in sin, he cannot seek God because He doesn't want to! As Jesus put it, everyone who commits a sin is the slave to sin (John 8:34).

Hello Spokenpassage,

John 3:17-21
For God sent not His Son into the world
to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.
He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation,
that light is come into the world,
and men loved darkness rather than light,
because their deeds were evil.
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,
neither cometh to the light,
lest his deeds should be reproved.
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,
that his deeds may be made manifest,
that they are wrought in God.'

* The condemnation here is because '...he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'

* You say that (quote) 'all men fall into this catagory of WICKEDNESS' - but this is not so, for there were those to whom the Lord ministered, of whom it could be said - 'doeth truth', they were those who 'cometh to the light', they were those who heard the word of truth and believed it.

* You say that man cannot seek God, yet that is not so, for Jer. 29:13, says:-

'And ye shall seek me, and find me,
when ye shall search for me with all your heart.'

This was spoken to God's People, who had been taken into captivity into Babylon, whether this relation makes a difference regarding the application of this verse, I do not know. However, I do think your response to Homewardbound needs to carefully thought through.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Spokenpassage]

CWJ: John 6:37-48; Romans 3:9-12, Ephesians 2:1-10, Genesis 6:5, Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Isaiah 64:6-8, John 6:65, John 8:43-45, John 10:26-30, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:1-26, Ephesians 1:3-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, etc..

 

[CWJ]

Spokenpassage:
CWJ: John 6:37-48; Romans 3:9-12, Ephesians 2:1-10, Genesis 6:5, Job 15:14-16, Psalm 130:3, Isaiah 64:6-8, John 6:65, John 8:43-45, John 10:26-30, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:1-26, Ephesians 1:3-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, etc..

Thank you Spokenpassage,

I will look through and consider carefully, all of these passages.

In Christ Jesus
Chris