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K
Yes just like the in the new testament, not all the gospels and books were written by who the book was about, or from their point of view. But they were written by others who were told by who the book was written for with the direction of the Holy Spirit on what to say. The good thing is though with Paul when he throws his own opinion into it, he lets you know it is what he wishes and is not a command by God.
T
Yes, but Genesis and the NT books are different in that Genesis was compiled from many different accounts over a long period of time. Each toledoth indicates that it's been written by another person eg. "This is the book of the generations of Adam". The NT books rarely indicate who the actual authors are.
K
Well all I can say is I thank God for allowing us to be able to have sites like this where we can all talk with one another and gather more knowledge and understanding from each other. There have been many and many of years of scholars out there that have studied the scriptures in there original format and nothing has changed accept for after the finding of the dead sea scrolls a few mistranslated words like red sea was actually reed sea, but it really doesn't change the meaning of the word of what they have found. For the most part it shows that English version of the bible that is most used today ( king James version ) is translated pretty much correctly.
Heh this a good question, and one I can answer for you that I had answered for me even without asking.
It's actually quite simple. Besides just the 5 books written by Moses or his scribes that collaborates that Moses lived, and wrote or dictated to the Levitical scribes the first five books in the compilation of the Bible, other written works therein of Moses' race speak of Moses also implying his authorship as clearly all of Israel and even secular world history were influenced by his writings. Even the Pharisees and Sadducees, some of the biggest unbelievers in the history of unbelievers, didn't doubt Moses lived and wrote the Torah lol, so when you have people that don't believe in what you wrote, but not doubting your authorship, it's a pretty good bet you actually wrote it regardless wehther what you wrote is right or wrong.
Not only all of that but considering the broad topics the Pentateuch covers this gives even more proof to Moses and his authorship since its not all just a story of Moses, but also ranges on topics many of which are outright confirmed or have enough supporting evidence to safely assume like historical events, warfare, touches on culture/politics/customs of the pagan peoples besides the Israelites. In fact the Mosaic Law which secularly is one of the most ancient known law structures in time which people indeed adhered to and ascribed to its namesake Moses is good proof Moses lived and told his story. The five books touch on race too which is an intriguing topic itself since we haven't been able to prove much of it besides with documentation and common sense until the rise of 20th century genetics proving race is simple family ties and that the race of jews goes back to the 12 tribes and more specifically mighth ave decent proof Moses most unbelievable book Genesis (since it pre-dates Moses) might prove Moses somehow knew quite a bit that the jewish race goes back to Israel who is Jacob and his four wives.
For me I considerred all those things as an atheist so I still thought Moses was real, I just thought he was a little crazy like all the ancient writers because I never read the entire Bible, I had just read some of the more fantastic and famous elements as an atheist but as a reader but had not read the full story (famous stuff meaning like the 10 plagues, burning bush, basically the stuff in the movie 10 Commandments lol). So gotta keep in mind that's the kinda atheist I was, I just didn't know, but was trying to know. I can't speak for all self-proclaimed atheists former or current, but that was my view of it later on after I was just done being a dumb teenager when I didn't care either which way lol.
Then I read all the 5 books plus the Bible as a whole and Moses comes off as quite intelligent to me, but very meek and humble just as he is described. It's all like the pieces fit together much better when you look at the puzzle more fully. I think for most atheists who are little more intellectual in terms of wanting to know, like myself when I was one, its not so hard for them to accept that Moses was a real guy if they are at least a little versed in secular history and even a lot of what Moses did is pretty confirmable and certain.
I think of course most atheists have a hard time accepting the God Moses says he encountered in his life. This is sort of ironic because even the non-jewish people of Moses' time and well afterwards until the 1800s AD never questioned that a god helped Moses. Some were just unsure that it is The God, like Pharoah was unsure, or due to the much idol worship of that time worshipped dead figurines like Ra and Horus and hearkened to the Magicians to no avail when down came the plague of hail.
However with knowing the Bible in full we can even give much better confirmation of indeed God being the God of Moses with later writers, God's prophets, and of course Jesus best of all confirms He is the one who was with Moses.
It's actually quite simple. Besides just the 5 books written by Moses or his scribes that collaborates that Moses lived, and wrote or dictated to the Levitical scribes the first five books in the compilation of the Bible, other written works therein of Moses' race speak of Moses also implying his authorship as clearly all of Israel and even secular world history were influenced by his writings. Even the Pharisees and Sadducees, some of the biggest unbelievers in the history of unbelievers, didn't doubt Moses lived and wrote the Torah lol, so when you have people that don't believe in what you wrote, but not doubting your authorship, it's a pretty good bet you actually wrote it regardless wehther what you wrote is right or wrong.
Not only all of that but considering the broad topics the Pentateuch covers this gives even more proof to Moses and his authorship since its not all just a story of Moses, but also ranges on topics many of which are outright confirmed or have enough supporting evidence to safely assume like historical events, warfare, touches on culture/politics/customs of the pagan peoples besides the Israelites. In fact the Mosaic Law which secularly is one of the most ancient known law structures in time which people indeed adhered to and ascribed to its namesake Moses is good proof Moses lived and told his story. The five books touch on race too which is an intriguing topic itself since we haven't been able to prove much of it besides with documentation and common sense until the rise of 20th century genetics proving race is simple family ties and that the race of jews goes back to the 12 tribes and more specifically mighth ave decent proof Moses most unbelievable book Genesis (since it pre-dates Moses) might prove Moses somehow knew quite a bit that the jewish race goes back to Israel who is Jacob and his four wives.
For me I considerred all those things as an atheist so I still thought Moses was real, I just thought he was a little crazy like all the ancient writers because I never read the entire Bible, I had just read some of the more fantastic and famous elements as an atheist but as a reader but had not read the full story (famous stuff meaning like the 10 plagues, burning bush, basically the stuff in the movie 10 Commandments lol). So gotta keep in mind that's the kinda atheist I was, I just didn't know, but was trying to know. I can't speak for all self-proclaimed atheists former or current, but that was my view of it later on after I was just done being a dumb teenager when I didn't care either which way lol.
Then I read all the 5 books plus the Bible as a whole and Moses comes off as quite intelligent to me, but very meek and humble just as he is described. It's all like the pieces fit together much better when you look at the puzzle more fully. I think for most atheists who are little more intellectual in terms of wanting to know, like myself when I was one, its not so hard for them to accept that Moses was a real guy if they are at least a little versed in secular history and even a lot of what Moses did is pretty confirmable and certain.
I think of course most atheists have a hard time accepting the God Moses says he encountered in his life. This is sort of ironic because even the non-jewish people of Moses' time and well afterwards until the 1800s AD never questioned that a god helped Moses. Some were just unsure that it is The God, like Pharoah was unsure, or due to the much idol worship of that time worshipped dead figurines like Ra and Horus and hearkened to the Magicians to no avail when down came the plague of hail.
However with knowing the Bible in full we can even give much better confirmation of indeed God being the God of Moses with later writers, God's prophets, and of course Jesus best of all confirms He is the one who was with Moses.
T
Great post. That said, I don't think the KJV is the bee's knees but that's okay.
GodIsSalvation, excellent post, mate! Also, the Pentateuch was written in Hebrew by someone who was highly knowledgeable about the Egyptian culture. Hmm... does that sound like anyone we know? Moses, perhaps?! (Joseph was also a Hebrew and Egyptian but he likely only wrote his account in Genesis).
GodIsSalvation, excellent post, mate! Also, the Pentateuch was written in Hebrew by someone who was highly knowledgeable about the Egyptian culture. Hmm... does that sound like anyone we know? Moses, perhaps?! (Joseph was also a Hebrew and Egyptian but he likely only wrote his account in Genesis).
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Heh indeed!
Though to be honest with you I never before thought that Joseph wrote his own account. I had been assuming that merely Moses wrote Genesis because for one he could have drawn upon the traditions and culture of his time for the later parts of Genesis (ie: nation of Israel being descended from Jacob (Israel) and the 12 tribes), and for two we know that Moses had direct communication with The God, whom could have filled Moses in on some of the earlier stuff.
Though to be honest with you I never before thought that Joseph wrote his own account. I had been assuming that merely Moses wrote Genesis because for one he could have drawn upon the traditions and culture of his time for the later parts of Genesis (ie: nation of Israel being descended from Jacob (Israel) and the 12 tribes), and for two we know that Moses had direct communication with The God, whom could have filled Moses in on some of the earlier stuff.
T
Ah, yes, God could have revealed everything in Genesis to Moses by way of revelation (on Mount Sinai or whatever) but I don't see God using miraculous sources when He doesn't need to do so. The different accounts (books of generations), which would have been written down (writing has been around a lot longer than non-Christian sources would have us believe) only needed to be compiled and edited together with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Naturally there would've been far more history recorded than we find in the early chapters of Genesis, particularly chapters 1-11 but only what God directed Moses to include, did he end up editing together.
E
rom 1: [SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
I guess all those single celled creatures. And dinosaurs have no excuse to rejecting their creator. Since according to some, they were here LONG before mankind.
I guess all those single celled creatures. And dinosaurs have no excuse to rejecting their creator. Since according to some, they were here LONG before mankind.
This is a very interesting perspective indeed, and one that I had not considerred before. I would deem it at least plausible. Though I still feel as if God would have had some influence upon the writing of Genesis regardless of the details since He clearly spoke with Moses many times. Really even just for the fact of granting to Moses to show him part of Himself in all His divine glory I feel at least places a strong potential for God's input on Genesis at least into the realm of possibility just as much as the possibility that Moses drew upon some of the traditions of the Genesis Patriarchs for the writing of the Pentateuch.
I will repost it once again.
Just for you.
Death before sin
Job 38.25 - 41
Who has cut a channel for the flood; or a way for the thunderclaps, to make it rain on the earth where no man is, a wilderness and no man in it; to satisfy the waste and desolation, and to cause the source of grass to sprout? Is there a father for the rain? Or who has given birth to the drops of dew? From whose womb comes forth the ice; and the frost of the heavens, who fathered it; the waters hidden like stone, and the face of the deep is captured? Can you bind the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion? Can you bring out the constellations in their season; or can you guide the Bear with its sons? Do you know the limits of the heavens; can you establish their rulership on the earth? Can you lift your voice to the clouds, so that floods of water may cover you? Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say to you, Here we are? Who has put wisdom in the inward parts; or who has given understanding to the mind? Who can by wisdom number the clouds or who can lay down the jars of the heavens, when the dust is melted into hardness, and the clods cling fast together? Will you hunt the prey for the lion, or fill the appetite of the young lions, when they crouch in dens, and sit in the cover of their hiding place? Who provides food for the raven, when its young ones cry to God and wander about without food?
Here we have Yahweh giving Job a clinic on creation.
Observe that God provides Job with a list of the creation BEFORE mankind!
Lions hunting for prey? Lions are carnivores. This means that they stalked and killed their food, as plainly stated in the text.
Ravens are omnivores – which means that they also ate meat – which means animal death.
So…as you can see, all these things transpired BEFORE the first humans.
Animal death existed BEFORE Adam sinned.
Period.
R
I have been studying Genesis for some time and written an article on this. It is my belief that the bible begins with the restoration of the earth and creation of man, it does not begin at the creation of the universe. You can read it here: Gap theory and Tohu vav Bohu | First things first but here is an exerpt:
The bible opens with the words: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now, at this stage, I am not concerned here with the translation of Elohim to God and all the arguments surrounding the words plurality, I will get to that at a later stage. What I am interested in is the following verse, which in English reads: “And the earth was without form and void“. What does this mean? Was there a lump that wasn’t round yet floating in space or was there a black hole (a void) and if so how could it be called a created earth yet? The verse continues to say: “and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” This helps a little; we know there is a earth with waters on it and it’s dark, but it makes the preceding words seem meaningless; how can something formless and void have a shape and be made of matter? Did the ancient writers add the words for effect as some scholars suggest since the words in hebrew for formless and void are tohu vav bohu which seem to have a musical quality to them? Let’s take a closer look at the sentence and compare it with other biblical usage.
This brings us to the word “was”. In Hebrew the verse is written: “Erets hayah tohu vav bohu“ commonly directly translated “Earth was formless and void“. But is this translation correct? How are these words variously translated elsewhere?
In Isaiah 45:18 we read: “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohu)“.
Here the word vain is tohu. This passage in Isaiah is one of those pearls I believe God put there to help us make sense of other passages. It explains that when God made the earth,he DID NOT make it “tohu or formless” So do we have a contradiction then? No, the problem lies in the old way of translating “hayah” as “was”.
The Strong’s bible dictionary translates hayah : to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) which means that the passage should in fact read: ” And the earth HAD BECOME or BECAME without form and was void. This is backed up by other verses as in:
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, andbecame (hayah) an archer.
Gen 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became (hayah) a servant unto tribute.
Exo 2:10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became (hayah) her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
This correct translation turns the conventional thought about “The creation” on its head. Genesis does not open with the creation of the earth, but rather with a restoration of a fallen earth. It does say that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, but it does not follow with an account of its creation. Rather is recounts that the earth HAD BECOME “tohu vav bohu” and goes on to tell how God restored it ending with the creation of Adam.
The bible opens with the words: “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now, at this stage, I am not concerned here with the translation of Elohim to God and all the arguments surrounding the words plurality, I will get to that at a later stage. What I am interested in is the following verse, which in English reads: “And the earth was without form and void“. What does this mean? Was there a lump that wasn’t round yet floating in space or was there a black hole (a void) and if so how could it be called a created earth yet? The verse continues to say: “and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” This helps a little; we know there is a earth with waters on it and it’s dark, but it makes the preceding words seem meaningless; how can something formless and void have a shape and be made of matter? Did the ancient writers add the words for effect as some scholars suggest since the words in hebrew for formless and void are tohu vav bohu which seem to have a musical quality to them? Let’s take a closer look at the sentence and compare it with other biblical usage.
This brings us to the word “was”. In Hebrew the verse is written: “Erets hayah tohu vav bohu“ commonly directly translated “Earth was formless and void“. But is this translation correct? How are these words variously translated elsewhere?
In Isaiah 45:18 we read: “For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohu)“.
Here the word vain is tohu. This passage in Isaiah is one of those pearls I believe God put there to help us make sense of other passages. It explains that when God made the earth,he DID NOT make it “tohu or formless” So do we have a contradiction then? No, the problem lies in the old way of translating “hayah” as “was”.
The Strong’s bible dictionary translates hayah : to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) which means that the passage should in fact read: ” And the earth HAD BECOME or BECAME without form and was void. This is backed up by other verses as in:
Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, andbecame (hayah) an archer.
Gen 49:15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became (hayah) a servant unto tribute.
Exo 2:10 And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became (hayah) her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
This correct translation turns the conventional thought about “The creation” on its head. Genesis does not open with the creation of the earth, but rather with a restoration of a fallen earth. It does say that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, but it does not follow with an account of its creation. Rather is recounts that the earth HAD BECOME “tohu vav bohu” and goes on to tell how God restored it ending with the creation of Adam.
T
We've heard all of this nonsense before. The gap theory is absolute bollocks and just aims to line up the Bible with the long-ages perpetuated by people like Charles Lyell. Evolutionary theory adopted uniformitarianism to give it credence. Why do people believe this crap?
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