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K
Well that was not me that did those posts nor did I like them, because I do not agree with anybody rather they believe the way I do or believe the opposite to use demeaning and belittling tactic's or passing false allegations/accusations at others.
I even started a thread awhile back about calling all people from each doctrine to stop siding with others in their same belief system when they are using such unedifying tactic's.
For that shows they are just liking the threads without actually reading what was said or is going on, because the person they are attacking is somebody they don't like. Which shows unChristlike behavior on all sides.
I even started a thread awhile back about calling all people from each doctrine to stop siding with others in their same belief system when they are using such unedifying tactic's.
For that shows they are just liking the threads without actually reading what was said or is going on, because the person they are attacking is somebody they don't like. Which shows unChristlike behavior on all sides.
W
There are so many instances that legalism and grace come up here.I kinda understand but there is a disconnect some where in me.I don"t see Grace and work as being in opposition to each other. I see them as part of a workable two part thing. We are totally saved by grace. The whole plan of God is by grace that we have not merited by our actions. But within this plan God and ourselves have a role to play or do. We are to be and walk like Christ, and as someone said ,we are even to exceed his manifestation . And of course it is the Spirit in us working through us. But we have, being created in Gods image,have freewill and many other God like attributes. Scripture says not to quench the Spirit. Or put it out like you quench a fire. Also to present our bodies as living sacrifices. I read a post the other day that God does"t ask us to forsake all and criticized someone for saying it. I realize that some by Godswill,do have possessions for his purposes. But in general jesus come first, our life and every thing in it are based upon his life giving work and death. Jesus said my father works today and so do I. He did the works of the Father. When we become born again we become New Creations, Born apart of God"s family. Christ is made unto us wisdom, sanctification,Righteousness, teacher, first born among many brethren, and much more. We with a renewed mind can make godly decisions. Suffering is another decision we make, paul said he had a choice. I don"t think that Grace takes away our choices that we decide ourselves, being born again. Even the choice to believe in the gospel we have, Is this made by God too? Unless you mis interperate predestination.We could go farther , If God made us a vessel of dishonor how can he punish us? (see paul) Again I am a little confused....any help?
K
You are right they can not be separated one from the other because a true faith will show out in how one acts, talks, and treats others because it will be reflective of the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in and through us.
If there is no proof of the Holy Spirit then we will know, which is why our Lord Jesus said by their fruits you will know them who are not believers.
If there is no proof of the Holy Spirit then we will know, which is why our Lord Jesus said by their fruits you will know them who are not believers.
Works that are considered non essential are works of the law that was given in the Old Testament. I am told that I am wrong for saying this, but there is a work of faith required for salvation as stated in Romans 10:9-10 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. Biblically it is not called a work, that's just what I feel the profession of faith is.
On the subject of free will, I see no reason to discredit it. I suspect that God created our minds and the circumstances of our lives, to best suit our decisions for His overall plan to be accomplished. In other words, our decisions are freely made, but already known. Once knowing our decisions, He could place us, so that our interactions with others would bring about His purposes.
S
The answer to that question is found right there in Hebrews 10. First what does it mean not to have a sin consciousness?
Verse 2 of Hebrews 10 says that the old sacrifices could not make the worshipers perfect. Verse 11 then says that if the old sacrifices could have made the worshipers perfect then the offerings would have stopped because once purged they would have had no more conscience of sin. Verse 3 says that in those old sacrifices there was always a remembrance of sin because the blood of animals could never take away those sins.
The renewing of our minds we are to do is to know and fully realize that our sins have been purged,completely removed. We are now new creations. We are now the righteousness of God. We are no longer to struggle with sins. All we do when we remember sins and struggle against sins is to give them a position that does not belong to them. If we could only stop focusing on ourselves and our own sins we could focus on the finished work of Jesus, and the fact that our sins have been removed and have no power over us any longer. This is the way out of sin rather than the struggle of self against sin. Self never could conqueror sin and never will.
As long as you continue to fight against an enemy, that enemy has power. I am not saying to give in to sin and sin all you want. A saved person doesn't want to sin anyway. What I am saying is to know that sin has been conquered on the cross. The battle has already been won by Jesus. When we put our trust in him alone as the one who has dealt with our sin, we deny sin's hold on us. The victory is already won. All we need do is accept that victory by faith and the struggle over sin is done. The problem has been that the devil has us trying to win a battle that Christ has already won. We don't even know we are victorious and so we don't enjoy the spoils of victory.
We still have a conscience of sins because we cannot accept that Jesus has already dealt with sin. Jesus already paid the price. We have already been purged of sin. We have carnal minds that only look at self and how sinful self is and we try to correct self to be what we think is pleasing to God. Works don't please God. Faith is the only thing that pleases God. Faith in the finished work of Calvary. The carnal mind cannot accept the things of God. The carnal mind cannot grasp righteousness by faith alone, for the carnal mind will only see self and never see Jesus and what was done in the Spirit.
Verse 2 of Hebrews 10 says that the old sacrifices could not make the worshipers perfect. Verse 11 then says that if the old sacrifices could have made the worshipers perfect then the offerings would have stopped because once purged they would have had no more conscience of sin. Verse 3 says that in those old sacrifices there was always a remembrance of sin because the blood of animals could never take away those sins.
The renewing of our minds we are to do is to know and fully realize that our sins have been purged,completely removed. We are now new creations. We are now the righteousness of God. We are no longer to struggle with sins. All we do when we remember sins and struggle against sins is to give them a position that does not belong to them. If we could only stop focusing on ourselves and our own sins we could focus on the finished work of Jesus, and the fact that our sins have been removed and have no power over us any longer. This is the way out of sin rather than the struggle of self against sin. Self never could conqueror sin and never will.
As long as you continue to fight against an enemy, that enemy has power. I am not saying to give in to sin and sin all you want. A saved person doesn't want to sin anyway. What I am saying is to know that sin has been conquered on the cross. The battle has already been won by Jesus. When we put our trust in him alone as the one who has dealt with our sin, we deny sin's hold on us. The victory is already won. All we need do is accept that victory by faith and the struggle over sin is done. The problem has been that the devil has us trying to win a battle that Christ has already won. We don't even know we are victorious and so we don't enjoy the spoils of victory.
We still have a conscience of sins because we cannot accept that Jesus has already dealt with sin. Jesus already paid the price. We have already been purged of sin. We have carnal minds that only look at self and how sinful self is and we try to correct self to be what we think is pleasing to God. Works don't please God. Faith is the only thing that pleases God. Faith in the finished work of Calvary. The carnal mind cannot accept the things of God. The carnal mind cannot grasp righteousness by faith alone, for the carnal mind will only see self and never see Jesus and what was done in the Spirit.
There are too many instances of individuals posting with allegations, accusations in the guise of correction, etc. without having read or understood the very posts in play. Not using the mind before replying,, answering a question without having heard it all, assuming another has a specific stance and/or worse is not a dialogue, it is simply arguing. For this cause I am unsubscribing to this thread. I will participate, always, on this subject, but the call to "repent" to those who have been labeled legalists, yet rely on the Blood of the Lam of God is too hurtful to continually endure. Before going for those splinters, take the beans out of your eyes. ALL WHO RELY ON JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION ARE FAMILY IN THE BLOOD. iF SOME CHOOSE TO OBEY MORE THAN OTHERS, IT IS NOT SIN. It is sin to judge another. Have I judged here? If you think so....pity. God bless all in Jesus Christ.
Where in post # 32 did i concluded that the works God ordained for His people to follow point to themselves ???
Why did you try to use a scheme in order to start a dispute with me ???
What exactly is the purpose of using these verse towards me John 5:39-40 ? Now in your mind set i don't know my LORD & Savior Jesus Christ ? I forgive you , but this will conclude my final comment toward you sir. It seems you are more obsessed with disputes instead of sound Doctrine.
I forgive you FreeNChrist
Now let us Give thanks to God and be reminded that, For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Let all of us, give thanks to Him always in all things.
Hebrews 13:15-16
Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Shalom
Why did you try to use a scheme in order to start a dispute with me ???
What exactly is the purpose of using these verse towards me John 5:39-40 ? Now in your mind set i don't know my LORD & Savior Jesus Christ ? I forgive you , but this will conclude my final comment toward you sir. It seems you are more obsessed with disputes instead of sound Doctrine.
I forgive you FreeNChrist
Now let us Give thanks to God and be reminded that, For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.
Let all of us, give thanks to Him always in all things.
Hebrews 13:15-16
Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Shalom
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A
Which ashamed?
embarrassed or guilty because of one's actions, characteristics, or associations.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"you should be ashamed of yourself"[/COLOR]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Will you repent or feel contrite for not appreciating the obvious?
embarrassed or guilty because of one's actions, characteristics, or associations.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"you should be ashamed of yourself"[/COLOR]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
- reluctant to do something through fear of embarrassment or humiliation.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"I'm ashamed to say I followed him home"[/COLOR]
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]sorry, shamefaced, abashed, sheepish, guilty, contrite, remorseful,repentant, penitent, regretful, rueful, apologetic; More[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Will you repent or feel contrite for not appreciating the obvious?
I tried to define why all this back and forth happens between the grace community and those arguing with them here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ke-confusing-cause-effect-sanctification.html
I think sanctification and the necessity of it is where this all comes down to. Give it a read if you have the time (a little long), it took me 3 or 4 minutes to read.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ke-confusing-cause-effect-sanctification.html
I think sanctification and the necessity of it is where this all comes down to. Give it a read if you have the time (a little long), it took me 3 or 4 minutes to read.
F
This has been going on since the very beginning of Christianity, and I am sure it will continue until the Lord returns. So much of the NT was written specifically to refute legalism that you would think it would be obvious, and still 2000 years later it persists. We must stand firmly with Christ, not only for ourselves but for others as well.
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery" Gal. 5:1
"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery" Gal. 5:1
K
People are not going to take to this because when you post a link to another source, it needs to actually be another source and not just your own words of how you been taught and then trying to break it down for others.
Remember the word of God says by 2 to 3 witnesses let a thing be established (2 Corinthians 13:1) !!!
Why the debating and arguing continues is because the grace only community continues to label those who speak on the works of the faith in such faulty/false witnessing ways as: legalists, works to earn salvation, and state we have no faith in Christ !!!
If you and others would step back take a breath and take your time in actually reading what we are saying, ask questions instead of jump to conclusions, and put aside the faulty accusations that have been passed down for years.
You and others would see none of us have said the Mosaic written ordinances have to be kept for salvation, none have said works earn salvation, and none have said works maintain salvation !!!
Works are the "PROOF" of a true saving faith in the Lord...............The bible confirms this as this is biblically sound !!!
E
rolls eyes.
The Old testament scripture were perfectly fine to point people to salvation. unless you believe no one in the oT was saved (not to mention. Paul told timothy as a child (when all he had was the OT ) Scripture gave him enough knowledge to be saved.)
It is amazing how blind a person can make themselves so they can hold onto their belief system.
The Old testament scripture were perfectly fine to point people to salvation. unless you believe no one in the oT was saved (not to mention. Paul told timothy as a child (when all he had was the OT ) Scripture gave him enough knowledge to be saved.)
It is amazing how blind a person can make themselves so they can hold onto their belief system.