I am righteous through the work of Christ Jesus
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I do not feel condemned by their opinions, I recognise they regard me as
their enemy, and are not prepared to look at the scriptures or even the Lord
and their hearts.
It would be foolish of me to ignore their intentions, or beliefs.
Take Willies long exposition on repentance and legalism, which justifies
his view religion is the real evil in the world.
There are some points we cannot compromise on.
I like your idea about conversation but on some issues we just have
to realise wolves do exist, and simply cannot be ignored.
their enemy, and are not prepared to look at the scriptures or even the Lord
and their hearts.
It would be foolish of me to ignore their intentions, or beliefs.
Take Willies long exposition on repentance and legalism, which justifies
his view religion is the real evil in the world.
There are some points we cannot compromise on.
I like your idea about conversation but on some issues we just have
to realise wolves do exist, and simply cannot be ignored.
Maybe because they never truly knew Him, but grew up with all the language
and become so embedded in religion, whatever they were it is submerged in
what they think others want them to be. When it comes to finding themselves
whatever has been left, it is so submerged, nothing surfaces, or makes sense
with in, so any other external excuse is the real cause of their problems,
which in this case is their religious history, which then becomes the focus
of their anger and hatred.
and become so embedded in religion, whatever they were it is submerged in
what they think others want them to be. When it comes to finding themselves
whatever has been left, it is so submerged, nothing surfaces, or makes sense
with in, so any other external excuse is the real cause of their problems,
which in this case is their religious history, which then becomes the focus
of their anger and hatred.
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Two different issues here. I have no problem with their accusations about
me, my evil, my lying, my insults, my slander, my malice etc.
I do have a problem with the teaching and what comes from it.
This we are to resist because it is wrong to deny the very gospel we live
and die for. I am called to witness to my Lord and King, it is that simple.
I am also called to love and care for my enemy, which I am endevouring
to do, to try and understand how this situation could come about, and
produce such a condemning and virulent, accusing mindset, which immediately
justifies the most caustic accusation against people who even try and understand
their beliefs.
On a simple level, to be called a liar, and then not shown the lie is strange,
on insulting and not shown the insult, or a sinner and not shown the sin.
The other day it was cruel and dishonest. So this group are very rigid and
very agressive. But I can live with that, if they can live with me working
out the why of where they are coming from and their belief ethics.
me, my evil, my lying, my insults, my slander, my malice etc.
I do have a problem with the teaching and what comes from it.
This we are to resist because it is wrong to deny the very gospel we live
and die for. I am called to witness to my Lord and King, it is that simple.
I am also called to love and care for my enemy, which I am endevouring
to do, to try and understand how this situation could come about, and
produce such a condemning and virulent, accusing mindset, which immediately
justifies the most caustic accusation against people who even try and understand
their beliefs.
On a simple level, to be called a liar, and then not shown the lie is strange,
on insulting and not shown the insult, or a sinner and not shown the sin.
The other day it was cruel and dishonest. So this group are very rigid and
very agressive. But I can live with that, if they can live with me working
out the why of where they are coming from and their belief ethics.
all true, but remember not to snuff a smoldering wick.
it's HARD GOING and ppl need encouragement when they are trying.
sinful ways are snares and it takes time to get free.
keep going! don't despair too much. easier said then done when grappling with sin, but in the end, it's got to go. << zone says to self
it's HARD GOING and ppl need encouragement when they are trying.
sinful ways are snares and it takes time to get free.
keep going! don't despair too much. easier said then done when grappling with sin, but in the end, it's got to go. << zone says to self
A
Have you ever considered your whole post is an attack upon them. Its basically character assassination. They may be responding to your passive-aggressive comments that basically condemn them as wolves and heretics?
As far as I can tell (and I only read 2 pages of "not by works" thread) they believe salvation is by grace alone and not by works.
I actually agree with them.
Works come after salvation. It is built upon the foundation which is Christ. If it's good, it will remain. If not good then it will burn up but the person will be saved.
The works is not just helping the poor but our theology of what we believe is good or evil. If our foundation is Christ, no matter if we get it right or wrong.,.if Christ is our foundation, God will save us.
When you start drilling holes in the foundation, you will have problems.
As far as I can tell (and I only read 2 pages of "not by works" thread) they believe salvation is by grace alone and not by works.
I actually agree with them.
Works come after salvation. It is built upon the foundation which is Christ. If it's good, it will remain. If not good then it will burn up but the person will be saved.
The works is not just helping the poor but our theology of what we believe is good or evil. If our foundation is Christ, no matter if we get it right or wrong.,.if Christ is our foundation, God will save us.
When you start drilling holes in the foundation, you will have problems.
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Hi Ariel,
Here's an example of 2 who have shipwrecked their faith. Paul turned them over to Satan in the hopes that they'll repent.
Although they were told the truth and encouraged to repent, they didn't and were given church discipline. No one was to have anything to do with them in the church if/until they repented. What were they doing? They were saying the resurrection had already taken place. They were turned over to Satan because of that. It requires extreme discipline when God's word is denied, twisted or ignored. It's an act of love because you care enough about the person who's veered from the truth and is walking away from the foundation which is Christ and Him crucified.
1 Timothy 1:18-20
Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well,holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. Among them are Hymenaeusand Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
2 Timothy 2:16-19
Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
Not quite sure what you are saying, but I assume you are using this rhetorical question to try to prove that once a person is saved they cannot leave the Lord?
Rhetorical questions without evidence prove nothing at all.
If I write: How can people get saved? -- that statement does not prove that once a person is lost he will always be lost. In the same way the question you asked does not prove that once a person is saved he/she will always be saved.
On the other hand, maybe you are just asking the simple question: "How can people leave the Lord?" I think the question has a simple answer: by ceasing to believe in the Lord.
Rhetorical questions without evidence prove nothing at all.
If I write: How can people get saved? -- that statement does not prove that once a person is lost he will always be lost. In the same way the question you asked does not prove that once a person is saved he/she will always be saved.
On the other hand, maybe you are just asking the simple question: "How can people leave the Lord?" I think the question has a simple answer: by ceasing to believe in the Lord.
I shared that particular one because it says they shipwrecked their faith. They had faith, but they shipwrecked. They lived the truth, but departed from the truth.
In what way did they shipwreck? They blasphemed. It was blasphemy to say that the resurrection had already taken place.
If that were the case, everyone living at that time didn't make it at Jesus' return. It was telling them they weren't saved. They didn't make it to heaven.
The return of Christ is a part of the gospel message. They were ultimately preaching another gospel.
And then Paul said that these two men were destroying the faith of some. Some had faith that was being destroyed by what these two men were preaching.
They are examples of how one can and will leave the faith. There's prophecy in the gospels that tell of a great falling away from the faith before the return of the Lord.
In what way did they shipwreck? They blasphemed. It was blasphemy to say that the resurrection had already taken place.
If that were the case, everyone living at that time didn't make it at Jesus' return. It was telling them they weren't saved. They didn't make it to heaven.
The return of Christ is a part of the gospel message. They were ultimately preaching another gospel.
And then Paul said that these two men were destroying the faith of some. Some had faith that was being destroyed by what these two men were preaching.
They are examples of how one can and will leave the faith. There's prophecy in the gospels that tell of a great falling away from the faith before the return of the Lord.
I believe we only have salvation because we believe in Jesus.
I realise my language is often constrained by my own unbelieving cynical culture.
To believe in someone in our culture is to give them interlectual assent, but to hold
the reserve to disagree with every other point they might have and dump them if
it goes against something we might disagree with.
Jesus means to believe in Him, is to put absolute trust in His words, in His deeds,
in His intent, in His message. This belief is total obedience and following to death.
Now how many thing today do we talk about in this kind of language or commitment?
Zero.
How many things do we feel is the same on the outside and the inside?
Zero.
So when someone says the believe in Christ it is not what He means by it, but
what our culture means.
And when it goes beyond intellectual assent to actual action, the right of veto
is there straight away, because we are obligated to nothing, literally nothing.
So the words people use sound the same, but mean something very different.
Going to church is fine, but loving everyone, becoming one in heart and mind,
are you joking? No, not even in the slightest.
Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8
Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11
Now if you have an open heart, and understand the cross, really understand the
cross, in your heart and soul, what love above all else is and means so you would
die for your fellow man, then you understand the heart of God, and how we are
called to be one with the Father and the Son.
We are made sinners with a defended heart. We are called to be people of
the Kingdom with open loving hearts able to handle the pain like Jesus did.
That is what we are called to, and many deceive themselves that they have
even begun.
I realise my language is often constrained by my own unbelieving cynical culture.
To believe in someone in our culture is to give them interlectual assent, but to hold
the reserve to disagree with every other point they might have and dump them if
it goes against something we might disagree with.
Jesus means to believe in Him, is to put absolute trust in His words, in His deeds,
in His intent, in His message. This belief is total obedience and following to death.
Now how many thing today do we talk about in this kind of language or commitment?
Zero.
How many things do we feel is the same on the outside and the inside?
Zero.
So when someone says the believe in Christ it is not what He means by it, but
what our culture means.
And when it goes beyond intellectual assent to actual action, the right of veto
is there straight away, because we are obligated to nothing, literally nothing.
So the words people use sound the same, but mean something very different.
Going to church is fine, but loving everyone, becoming one in heart and mind,
are you joking? No, not even in the slightest.
Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8
Strive for full restoration, encourage one another, be of one mind, live in peace. And the God of love and peace will be with you.
2 Cor 13:11
Now if you have an open heart, and understand the cross, really understand the
cross, in your heart and soul, what love above all else is and means so you would
die for your fellow man, then you understand the heart of God, and how we are
called to be one with the Father and the Son.
We are made sinners with a defended heart. We are called to be people of
the Kingdom with open loving hearts able to handle the pain like Jesus did.
That is what we are called to, and many deceive themselves that they have
even begun.
The culture of unbelief and cynism
When I say I am perfect, holy, washed clean, pure, blameless, am I right or wrong?
According to Jesus I am right, because His blood has washed me clean, the Holy Spirit
dwells in His Holy temple, and I walk with a clean conscience.
Now those with unbelief and a cynical heart will say, fat chance.
But listen to scripture. Scripture declares Gods people walk in this state and live in this
state.
So those who take the cynical approach are living in unbelief about Gods testimony, and
are cynical without evidence.
Now if I say in the past I have stumbled, then immediately I am a liar.
This is because the state of fellowship with God is deemed a permanent one but
is actually only a pipe dream. The lie is fellowship is without learning, growth,
mistakes and problems. Read all the men of God, they all had issues, but overcame
them, grew through them.
So perfection, purity, holiness is a state of being, which can be defiled but is our
calling. When we stumble, he is faithful if we confess our sins we will gain forgiveness.
The enemy would love to create a cynical alternative, which denies the reality of
the walk, but maintains hypocrites who daily feel condemned yet believe they are
walking in the way.
So which are you prepared to do. Walk in the ways of Christ or stay in cynicism and
unbelief?
When I say I am perfect, holy, washed clean, pure, blameless, am I right or wrong?
According to Jesus I am right, because His blood has washed me clean, the Holy Spirit
dwells in His Holy temple, and I walk with a clean conscience.
Now those with unbelief and a cynical heart will say, fat chance.
But listen to scripture. Scripture declares Gods people walk in this state and live in this
state.
So those who take the cynical approach are living in unbelief about Gods testimony, and
are cynical without evidence.
Now if I say in the past I have stumbled, then immediately I am a liar.
This is because the state of fellowship with God is deemed a permanent one but
is actually only a pipe dream. The lie is fellowship is without learning, growth,
mistakes and problems. Read all the men of God, they all had issues, but overcame
them, grew through them.
So perfection, purity, holiness is a state of being, which can be defiled but is our
calling. When we stumble, he is faithful if we confess our sins we will gain forgiveness.
The enemy would love to create a cynical alternative, which denies the reality of
the walk, but maintains hypocrites who daily feel condemned yet believe they are
walking in the way.
So which are you prepared to do. Walk in the ways of Christ or stay in cynicism and
unbelief?
I am searching always for an answer, not an attack or trying to respond.
There is only one calling, to follow and be like Jesus.
Now I have discovered my own language and through scripture my failure
to talk and see the vision Paul had. And this takes a lot of time, serious
dedication.
It also highlights my language and how I use it. It is linked to our culture and
deeply embedded assumptions. If you want to know Gods assumptions you
need to embed your thoughts in His word.
So I am not interested in any group other than those desiring to follow Christ.
There is only one calling, to follow and be like Jesus.
Now I have discovered my own language and through scripture my failure
to talk and see the vision Paul had. And this takes a lot of time, serious
dedication.
It also highlights my language and how I use it. It is linked to our culture and
deeply embedded assumptions. If you want to know Gods assumptions you
need to embed your thoughts in His word.
So I am not interested in any group other than those desiring to follow Christ.
I believe we have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.
Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures because we can destroy our lives and those around us on this earth)
This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".
1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.
Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.
Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.
Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.
The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.
Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.
The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.
We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well -for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.
Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.
We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.
We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"
The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.
As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6
His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".
Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures because we can destroy our lives and those around us on this earth)
This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".
1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.
Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.
Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.
Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.
The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.
Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.
The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.
We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well -for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.
Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.
We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.
We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"
The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.
As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6
His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".
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A
I believe we have to disagree. Its a hard idea that only God can judge if those two were true born again believers or not.
Everyone has faith..the question is it a saving faith and what people place their faith in.
I believe the Bible verse that says if your foundation is Christ,even if all your works are hay and burn up in the fire, God will save that person.
We can debate if the person is truly in Christ, because many falsely believe they are but are not. Unless someone has the HOLY Spirit proclaiming them as children of God washed and reedeemed by the blood of the Lamb, they are not adopted born again believers with Christ as their foundation.
Everyone has faith..the question is it a saving faith and what people place their faith in.
I believe the Bible verse that says if your foundation is Christ,even if all your works are hay and burn up in the fire, God will save that person.
We can debate if the person is truly in Christ, because many falsely believe they are but are not. Unless someone has the HOLY Spirit proclaiming them as children of God washed and reedeemed by the blood of the Lamb, they are not adopted born again believers with Christ as their foundation.