I want to understand the Catholic faith so....
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I'm sure that you have good intentions, and that you mean well, and maybe you just didn't read her posts closely enough... but your premise here isn't accurate.
1. There are plenty of places IN THIS THREAD, where she was very disparaging toward PROTESTANT DOCTRINE, and also toward PROTESTANTS THEMSELVES.
Do I really need to dig through this thread and pick out every single disparaging remark she made?
Is that really necessary?
2. This isn't the only thread she's posted in... she's said plenty of disparaging things about protestants and protestant doctrines in other threads.
She's done this all over the forum.
It's not a mystery.
It's silly to even be having this conversation.
PoetMary has spent a great amount of time engaging in RCC apologetics, a good deal of which, necessarily, relies on attacking Protestant doctrine.
Just go read all her posts on CC... it's all right there... in her own words.
This isn't some kind of mystery.
1. There are plenty of places IN THIS THREAD, where she was very disparaging toward PROTESTANT DOCTRINE, and also toward PROTESTANTS THEMSELVES.
Do I really need to dig through this thread and pick out every single disparaging remark she made?
Is that really necessary?
2. This isn't the only thread she's posted in... she's said plenty of disparaging things about protestants and protestant doctrines in other threads.
She's done this all over the forum.
It's not a mystery.
It's silly to even be having this conversation.
PoetMary has spent a great amount of time engaging in RCC apologetics, a good deal of which, necessarily, relies on attacking Protestant doctrine.
Just go read all her posts on CC... it's all right there... in her own words.
This isn't some kind of mystery.
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Hey Lynn,
Thank you for your defense. There is just one point I'd like to clarify.
I am born again. I do know I'm a Christian. I have no doubts that I have the Holy Spirit within me.
Here's where the confusion may be. In my "testimony" I have no pointed experience where I go from "I am a terrible sinner" to "I want to know God." Because I lack a drama-filled conversion incident, some people presume that I am not a Christian. So, here's how my story goes: I've always believed. I cannot remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. When I say "believe," I don't just mean "intellectual assent." I mean I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. I agree that I have need of Jesus as my Savior. I accept the work of Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit within me. I maintain a relationship with God and seek to do his will. I also make every effort to live the sort of life a Christian is meant to live. I understand that my ability to live this life is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit within me.
Also, I *am* a person who believes that baptism is a sacrament (which several denominations believe...not just Roman Catholics). So, when I look at the trajectory of my life, I trace the beginning of the work of the Holy Spirit within me to THAT moment. A non-Catholic might look at my life and say, "Well, she never had a conversion moment...she is not saved." Other protestants I've met would say something like this, "I don't believe your baptism meant anything, but based on what I know about you and your life, it seems like your conversion was a gradual process instead of a dramatic moment."
(As an aside, I've met cradle-Protestants of various denominations who have a similar story of being raised in the faith and always loving Jesus. They might ask their parents to be baptized at say...age 5....not because they had an a dramatic experience at age 5, but because they realize what they believe and want to be baptized to express this belief. They have told me that they, too, have the same struggle with people disregarding their testimonies because they lack that climactic drama-filled moment. Eventually, to spare themselves the constant heartache--and headache--of having their testimony vivisected, they'll just slightly change how they tell the story so that it pleases the hearers).
What's interesting to me is that when I hear those dramatic testimonies from people, more often than not I notice that God was at work in them for a long, long time before they ever said, "Yes" to God. If you dig deeper, they'll gladly tell you that people were praying for them and their conversion. The bible says, "It's your [God's] kindness that leads us to repentance". While on the surface it may seem that a person is just going along doing their thing and then BAM God go after them in a single moment, I think that's just surface perception. That's because God is subtle.
Additionally, when I was much younger I went through phases of questioning whether or not I was saved because my story didn't match what people expected. People (who didn't really know me or my walk) told me I wasn't saved because I didn't have some memorable, drama-filled, conversion experience. When I would point out that I was living my life for God, they would then claim that I was trying to earn my salvation." (See the Catch-22 here? People will talk about believers bearing "fruit" but if you point to the fact that you've produced fruit, they'll tell you you're relying on your own works). The answer (for these people) was for me to have a (fake) conversion experience--and by "fake" I mean that these people wanted me to walk through some kind of process that I wasn't actually spiritually experiencing. I was already at the END of that process with the Holy Spirit within me. Anyway, this created a lot of anxiety for me because the desire of my heart was to love and serve God. The idea that I might not be doing so pained me. After a lot of anxiety and prayer regarding what these people said, here's what God said to me, "You are mine." He also let me know that I needed to not worry about the perceptions of others...it was His that mattered.
So this is my conundrum. I know I'm a Christian, but when certain people ask "when did you become a Christian," and I say, "I've always believed," they get really mad. They presume I'm playing fast-and-loose with scripture, or that I'm somehow denying their own experience, or that I'm trying to earn my way to God. I have evidence of my faith within my life (both internal and external). I could LIE and invent some kind of story to tell people so they would believe I was a Christian, but that would be (in my mind) a significant ethical compromise. Not only would I be lying about myself, but I'd be falsely reporting about the work of God within me.
Of course, there are plenty of other Christians who take me for my word and simply observe my life. After some observation, they will conclude that I'm accurately self-reporting because my actions and words are consistent.
Thank you for your defense. There is just one point I'd like to clarify.
I am born again. I do know I'm a Christian. I have no doubts that I have the Holy Spirit within me.
Here's where the confusion may be. In my "testimony" I have no pointed experience where I go from "I am a terrible sinner" to "I want to know God." Because I lack a drama-filled conversion incident, some people presume that I am not a Christian. So, here's how my story goes: I've always believed. I cannot remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus. When I say "believe," I don't just mean "intellectual assent." I mean I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. I agree that I have need of Jesus as my Savior. I accept the work of Jesus. I have the Holy Spirit within me. I maintain a relationship with God and seek to do his will. I also make every effort to live the sort of life a Christian is meant to live. I understand that my ability to live this life is dependent upon the work of the Holy Spirit within me.
Also, I *am* a person who believes that baptism is a sacrament (which several denominations believe...not just Roman Catholics). So, when I look at the trajectory of my life, I trace the beginning of the work of the Holy Spirit within me to THAT moment. A non-Catholic might look at my life and say, "Well, she never had a conversion moment...she is not saved." Other protestants I've met would say something like this, "I don't believe your baptism meant anything, but based on what I know about you and your life, it seems like your conversion was a gradual process instead of a dramatic moment."
(As an aside, I've met cradle-Protestants of various denominations who have a similar story of being raised in the faith and always loving Jesus. They might ask their parents to be baptized at say...age 5....not because they had an a dramatic experience at age 5, but because they realize what they believe and want to be baptized to express this belief. They have told me that they, too, have the same struggle with people disregarding their testimonies because they lack that climactic drama-filled moment. Eventually, to spare themselves the constant heartache--and headache--of having their testimony vivisected, they'll just slightly change how they tell the story so that it pleases the hearers).
What's interesting to me is that when I hear those dramatic testimonies from people, more often than not I notice that God was at work in them for a long, long time before they ever said, "Yes" to God. If you dig deeper, they'll gladly tell you that people were praying for them and their conversion. The bible says, "It's your [God's] kindness that leads us to repentance". While on the surface it may seem that a person is just going along doing their thing and then BAM God go after them in a single moment, I think that's just surface perception. That's because God is subtle.
Additionally, when I was much younger I went through phases of questioning whether or not I was saved because my story didn't match what people expected. People (who didn't really know me or my walk) told me I wasn't saved because I didn't have some memorable, drama-filled, conversion experience. When I would point out that I was living my life for God, they would then claim that I was trying to earn my salvation." (See the Catch-22 here? People will talk about believers bearing "fruit" but if you point to the fact that you've produced fruit, they'll tell you you're relying on your own works). The answer (for these people) was for me to have a (fake) conversion experience--and by "fake" I mean that these people wanted me to walk through some kind of process that I wasn't actually spiritually experiencing. I was already at the END of that process with the Holy Spirit within me. Anyway, this created a lot of anxiety for me because the desire of my heart was to love and serve God. The idea that I might not be doing so pained me. After a lot of anxiety and prayer regarding what these people said, here's what God said to me, "You are mine." He also let me know that I needed to not worry about the perceptions of others...it was His that mattered.
So this is my conundrum. I know I'm a Christian, but when certain people ask "when did you become a Christian," and I say, "I've always believed," they get really mad. They presume I'm playing fast-and-loose with scripture, or that I'm somehow denying their own experience, or that I'm trying to earn my way to God. I have evidence of my faith within my life (both internal and external). I could LIE and invent some kind of story to tell people so they would believe I was a Christian, but that would be (in my mind) a significant ethical compromise. Not only would I be lying about myself, but I'd be falsely reporting about the work of God within me.
Of course, there are plenty of other Christians who take me for my word and simply observe my life. After some observation, they will conclude that I'm accurately self-reporting because my actions and words are consistent.
~Proverbs 19:11
A person's wisdom yields patience; it is to one's glory to overlook an offense.
~Luke 6:27
"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luke 6:28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
A person's wisdom yields patience; it is to one's glory to overlook an offense.
~Luke 6:27
"But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
Luke 6:28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
So you think just because she was baptized as a baby now that she is an adult she has not accepted Jesus as her Savior and that she can think for herself? How do you know what her relationship is with God? Can you see into her heart and know her motives? I can't so if you can you are certainly more righteous than I am. So why are you attacking her?
Yes, it was a joke - I think we all need to lighten up a little....Cookie?
But.....I will keep insisting on an answer from her! Salvation is one topic I dont take lightly. Souls are at hand.
I fear she wont answer though. She cant philosophize this one.
I saved the last one for you...
Wow! So tell me if Jesus Came right now would you be happy to see Him or shaking in your boots for the way you treat people on a forum with the interrogation type questions? If God is working on someone's heart they have a communication going on prayer and Bible study....do you know if she is doing this? She might be and it is God's job to convict someone not us.
JesusLives,
This is the debate area of the forum.
Debate is what goes on here.
Debate means you ask tough questions about doctrine, give rebuttals, etc.
It isn't a sin to ask someone a tough question about their doctrine...
especially in the middle of the debate forum, where that is EXPECTED.
Jesuslives,
I'm not upset with you in any way, and I'm not picking a fight with you.
I'm just emphasizing that this IS the debate area... so we needn't get so upset about a debate occurring in the debate area.
It's ok.
Nobody is going to die from this.
And if somebody can't handle debate... they can exit the debate area.
It's not a big deal.
Nobody is going to die.
People go into a debate area EXPECTING debate.
This is the debate area of the forum.
Debate is what goes on here.
Debate means you ask tough questions about doctrine, give rebuttals, etc.
It isn't a sin to ask someone a tough question about their doctrine...
especially in the middle of the debate forum, where that is EXPECTED.
Jesuslives,
I'm not upset with you in any way, and I'm not picking a fight with you.
I'm just emphasizing that this IS the debate area... so we needn't get so upset about a debate occurring in the debate area.
It's ok.
Nobody is going to die from this.
And if somebody can't handle debate... they can exit the debate area.
It's not a big deal.
Nobody is going to die.
People go into a debate area EXPECTING debate.
So you think just because she was baptized as a baby now that she is an adult she has not accepted Jesus as her Savior and that she can think for herself?
Thats not what I am saying at all. Ive made myself perfectly clear.
How do you know what her relationship is with God? I dont.
Can you see into her heart and know her motives? Its apparent her motive is to hold on to her "saved" statement although it contradicts the gospel of Christ!
I can't so if you can you are certainly more righteous than I am. I stand on Gods word. There is only one way to salvation. Baptism isnt one of them.
So why are you attacking her? I am NOT attacking. I am being persistent. Are you attacking me and judging me?
Thats not what I am saying at all. Ive made myself perfectly clear.
How do you know what her relationship is with God? I dont.
Can you see into her heart and know her motives? Its apparent her motive is to hold on to her "saved" statement although it contradicts the gospel of Christ!
I can't so if you can you are certainly more righteous than I am. I stand on Gods word. There is only one way to salvation. Baptism isnt one of them.
So why are you attacking her? I am NOT attacking. I am being persistent. Are you attacking me and judging me?
I have appreciated people who have always loved God - and was raised that way believe me the roller coaster life is not a fun one and I wish I had Godly parents who had taught me to love God from day one. Instead I was blessed with an Aunt who took me to church with her kids and then I went back home to the party house where my mom had me with a babysitter most of the time so she could go out or my dad was watching me and I'd be sitting out in the car waiting for him at a beer joint while he had a couple of beers.
I dealt with confusion and in and out of church not understanding salvation. So I wish I had the story you have and may God continue to lead you into His truth and your relationship with Him continue to grow.
I dealt with confusion and in and out of church not understanding salvation. So I wish I had the story you have and may God continue to lead you into His truth and your relationship with Him continue to grow.
A
Was there a dink? (Dink. The sound a light makes when it turns on.)
You don't need some dramatic story to be a believer, but you need a dink. A moment in time when "I want to know God" (off position of the light) turns into "God is here." (Dink.)
As mentioned I was raised Catholic too, constantly trying to connect to that guy in the book or the guy on that cross. Thought I was, as best as humanly possible. And then the not-humanly-possible dink hit. Watched Jesus Christ Superstar, asked God to make himself as real to me as the guy on the stage, got caught up in family drama too much after the show to ever get back to that thought, went to sleep, woke up and the dink was there. He wasn't someone I wanted to know. He became someone I did know! Not just a character in the book. Not that guy on a cross next to our front door. THE God. The one and only! Something changed. He changed me. Not some humongous back story. HIM. Dink!
If you don't have that, you're still wanting.
Men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone that does evil hates the light and doesn't come to the light least his work should be exposed. But God wroughts! God does the wroughting, not us. (Personalized version of John 3:16-21. Yeah, I know. I misused the word wrought twice, but it's a much more powerful word than any other word I can think of and any other word used there. A blacksmith wroughts steel into a sword. That's what God does -- hammers us to reshape us into his will, and we want that.)
If there is no dink, I don't believe it. Mostly, because I remember the difference between want and have.
You don't need some dramatic story to be a believer, but you need a dink. A moment in time when "I want to know God" (off position of the light) turns into "God is here." (Dink.)
As mentioned I was raised Catholic too, constantly trying to connect to that guy in the book or the guy on that cross. Thought I was, as best as humanly possible. And then the not-humanly-possible dink hit. Watched Jesus Christ Superstar, asked God to make himself as real to me as the guy on the stage, got caught up in family drama too much after the show to ever get back to that thought, went to sleep, woke up and the dink was there. He wasn't someone I wanted to know. He became someone I did know! Not just a character in the book. Not that guy on a cross next to our front door. THE God. The one and only! Something changed. He changed me. Not some humongous back story. HIM. Dink!
If you don't have that, you're still wanting.
Men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone that does evil hates the light and doesn't come to the light least his work should be exposed. But God wroughts! God does the wroughting, not us. (Personalized version of John 3:16-21. Yeah, I know. I misused the word wrought twice, but it's a much more powerful word than any other word I can think of and any other word used there. A blacksmith wroughts steel into a sword. That's what God does -- hammers us to reshape us into his will, and we want that.)
If there is no dink, I don't believe it. Mostly, because I remember the difference between want and have.
I agree with you but the OP made this thread as a way to gain understanding and instead it has gone to the tooth and nail stage..... How can we gain understanding if folks feel like they are being attacked.... Believe me I understand the attack thing because just a few months after I joined in 2013 SDA faith was on the bashing block and there was no one that came to my defense I was taking it and talking to God about it.
Because I joined CC thinking we are God's children and we would lift one another up the world and Satan were our enemies and at least we had Jesus in common, but NO I was attacked and told I was going to hell for being an SDA and that I had or was a demon.... I don't know you might want to check with tourist on that last accusation. But I can tell you I talked with God a lot when I first joined and I said they don't like me.....felt like quitting.... But God said no don't quit.....they aren't attacking you they are really attacking Me. So I stayed and determined that I would defend someone I felt was being attacked even if their belief wasn't what I believed. Last time I checked we live in America where there is freedom of religion but that does not hold true on CC.
Max I am not upset with you either, but I am tired of people who may really have a heart for God being attacked just for the way they believe. If they are truly God's children no one will snatch them out of His hand and who are we to say what is on their hearts? Believe me I am one of God's children and I keep holding on to Him tightly because humans are mean.
Because I joined CC thinking we are God's children and we would lift one another up the world and Satan were our enemies and at least we had Jesus in common, but NO I was attacked and told I was going to hell for being an SDA and that I had or was a demon.... I don't know you might want to check with tourist on that last accusation. But I can tell you I talked with God a lot when I first joined and I said they don't like me.....felt like quitting.... But God said no don't quit.....they aren't attacking you they are really attacking Me. So I stayed and determined that I would defend someone I felt was being attacked even if their belief wasn't what I believed. Last time I checked we live in America where there is freedom of religion but that does not hold true on CC.
Max I am not upset with you either, but I am tired of people who may really have a heart for God being attacked just for the way they believe. If they are truly God's children no one will snatch them out of His hand and who are we to say what is on their hearts? Believe me I am one of God's children and I keep holding on to Him tightly because humans are mean.
And actually you are adding to it! You come in at the end zone and buddy up to a gal whom I just what an answer from! It isnt a difficult question! Why is that so bad that I want her to see how her statement contradicts GODS WORD? Why do you put forth that I am doing wrong or attacking?
That is not where I am coming from at all. Perhaps you do not understand because you did afterall marry a man who still claims to be a catholic . He doesnt go to the catholic church anymore but yet still claims the title.
There is a delusional disconnect going on here.
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