If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

[Tinkerbell725]

That is the normal life of the pastor. Constantly under spiritual attack. If the pastor is not struggling, then maybe devil must be slacking since he got him already. But a godly pastor and a godly supportive wife, doing their roles properly, becomes a powerhouse that the devil can never beat.

 

[pottersclay]

I think what we're dealing with is the order of God vrs. Culture of the day.
If you study the gospels you'll note that even the apostles were amazed that Jesus talked to women alone.
Babes in Christ are to be nourished by the milk of the word. Women (mom's) in God's order provide milk for babes naturally.
Men in society are seen as the authoritative figure and in God's order are placed there.
Children usually tend to generate around the mom more than the father for a time. The gentle voice and soft embrace is said to be more comfortable.
If you look at Paul's writings he decribes teaching the word like a nursery. Going from the milk of the word to the meat. His warning is not to stay in the milk for it's benefits will not increase.
Women play a different part in raising a child on the way he should go. That is not to say it is less important.
It is a team effort that is seen through out history. I'm sure Mary was a influence on Jesus as a child. A stay at home mom who served the Lord while her husband Joseph was about supporting the family. The word submit in Ephesians means to give over the authority one has willingly it does not mean to be lorded over.

 

[kaylagrl]

I also wish there was a way of allowing each congregation member to live for 6 months or so as if they were spiritual leaders themselves, so they could experience first hand what kinds of expectations the ministry staff has on them.

And likewise, they would have to feel the real pressures - possibly losing their jobs, reputations, or churches - just like the actual ministry leaders.

I know something like that would never happen, but I wish it would because it might influence the way pastors and leaders were treated.

I say this because my family usually winds up being part of the support staff to the ministry staff, who will open up to us about how lonely and burned out they feel.

One pastor preached a few Sundays ago about how over the years, he's had people in the congregations who diagreed with him that threatened him and his family with "prophecies" and "messages from God" that his wife and children would be kidnapped, abused, and even sold into trafficking. CRAZY stuff.

Now of course, we all know that sometimes it's the ministry staff that does indeed have to be kept in line too. I'm not at all trying to say that we should preserve those in power at all costs. Goodness no!

However, the things going on behind the scenes are often truly ungodly, and most times, many of the facts are kept under wraps (due to reasons of confidentiality or even legal issues), meaning that several unjust assumptions are often made about the people at the center of the controversy.

Just my ten cents but being in ministry is a very hard job and people can not understand unless they do it. The family feels it even worse I think at times. And yes, children can rebel against it. I have pastor friends that were missionaries and a pastor when they came home. The things they faced, I don't know how anyone could and not be affected. And the worse was not overseas but at home!! Their daughter rebelled and refused to go to church. I can't blame her, and I stayed close to her,even to this day. Now she is a Christian again but she fought a lot of demons. On the other hand her brother got married and became a pastor. Its a very hard job which people just don't understand.

We had a preacher at our church one time that insisted there were no calls, unless an emergency, on Sundays especially during dinner. As a kid I recall someone calling for his wife and he'd say "she's busy" and hang up!! I thought that was so rude,until I went into ministry myself. He was trying to give his family time together uninterrupted. All his children are in ministry now, though they also had issues with rebellion though nothing serious.

The vast majority of pastors serve in small church in country towns doing thankless work. Yes, they are doing it unto God but boy some of the people in the church sure can make life difficult. I can tell story after story on this subject. We were at a church that didn't believe in pastor appreciation day. The pastors wife told me her underclothes were in tatters, they couldn't even afford to cloth themselves and their family but they felt called to minister to that area. Yet their hard hearted congregation forced them to have to eventually give in and move to another church. So there are two sides to the coin. People need to understand this, pray for their pastors and families and support them in every way possible. They sacrifice so much more than people can understand.

 

[kaylagrl]

That is the normal life of the pastor. Constantly under spiritual attack. If the pastor is not struggling, then maybe devil must be slacking since he got him already. But a godly pastor and a godly supportive wife, doing their roles properly, becomes a powerhouse that the devil can never beat.

Unfortunately that's not true. I've seen many pastors forced to leave churches because some of the congregation has been used of satan. I've seen churches torn apart, and pastors lives along with it. I don't think people even know many things a pastor faces. And there is very little, if any, support for a pastors marriage and family. Who do they turn to when people try to take over the church? When they have marriage issues or problems with children? There needs to be more support for pastors and their families.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

This question is predicated upon to false suppositions. The first being that women are expected to do anything. We do not compel women to teach anyone.
The second being that the teachers in schools are teaching men, as in grown men. They are not. They are teaching children.

 

[seoulsearch]

Well the developement of a child has alot to do with their parents and their surroundings. That falls under Child developement. And so these can have longterm affects. I wanted to get into counselling so I know a bit about it.

And as far as leaders having stricter rules is actually a good thing. When we have the opposite you get abuse of power. So there are two spectrums to how you can view this. I would take the more rigid regement over a biased leadership any day.

If they will sugar coax anything a leader does, they will get away with murder. So the fact that they will not be biased to someone in position and hold a higher standard for leaders is commendable.

I also wanted to mention that during my high school years, I saw at least one pastor and one teacher who were removed from their positions due to strict adherence to Biblical recommendations for leadership. I'm not saying it wasn't warranted, because the details were kept under lock and key - but they also never told us what was really going on.

The pastor had a child who was involved in a scandal that broke out at the high school. Although we never fully learned why, he was released from the congregation. I ran into him several years later at the public college I was attending, and he was there as a regular student, having to start his life over from scratch - all the years of training he had already put in were already gone. I had always felt troubled by this, but I never learned any details other than that his child had allegedly participated in something wrong.

The teacher who was dismissed had been there for... I can't even remember. It was one of those cases where he'd been a pillar of the school from the day it opened, but they said he was teaching things that weren't in line with the Lutheran doctrine. To my knowledge, they even said that it wasn't about the core issues of salvation. But this man was the school's only science teacher and it was said that he was teaching something about the creation of the world that didn't go along with synod teachings.

Elders would sit in on his classes while he was teaching them and apparently, he was teaching something wrong, because he was let go.

Now I'm not saying that leaders should never be removed. If they're teaching something that doesn't line up with the Word of God, they need to go as soon as possible, of course!

BUT, I can't help but wonder why it took something like TWENTY years for them to decide this.

Had he been teaching these "false doctrines" all along, and the elders had just turned their heads? Did he suddenly just develop these questionable teachings in the past few years? When did they start sneaking into his lessons? (For the record, I never noticed his alleged false doctrines, but I hadn't taken all his classes, either.)

Or was it because people were complaining about him (which is what we heard), and there was finally enough peer pressure to finally kick him out?

I never did find out exactly what the facts were, because they weren't really given (there were also whispers of possible legal intervention that prevented people from talking.)

But this is just what I saw in my own experience regarding church leadership utilizing what they sincerely believed were Biblical principles as far as selecting - and removing - those who were in leadership.

 

[seoulsearch]

This question is predicated upon to false suppositions. The first being that women are expected to do anything. We do not compel women to teach anyone.
The second being that the teachers in schools are teaching men, as in grown men. They are not. They are teaching children.

I'm not asking to be argumentative, but rather just to clarify.

You are saying then that college-aged males (around 18-22) would still be considered children?

This is one of the main premises of the thread. A church that teaches only males in leadership but has female teachers on staff at the college that is bringing up the next generation of pastors and teachers.

And if women aren't (if even subconsciously) expected to do things such as teach Sunday school, why aren't we seeing all-male staffs doing this instead?

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Unfortunately that's not true. I've seen many pastors forced to leave churches because some of the congregation has been used of satan. I've seen churches torn apart, and pastors lives along with it. I don't think people even know many things a pastor faces. And there is very little, if any, support for a pastors marriage and family. Who do they turn to when people try to take over the church? When they have marriage issues or problems with children? There needs to be more support for pastors and their families.

What is not true? Struggles in the church is part of growth. That's why everyone must help so the burden is not only on the leaders. And failure is not the end. It is just the beginning of learning.

 

[oyster67]

Unfortunately, when I wrote the thread, I was pretty sure there wouldn't be a Scriptural answer given to the questions asked in the OP.

After all, the synod practicing them couldn't seem to give any either.

I will stand by you, no matter which way you go on this. You will always be my much beloved sister. God's love to me is unconditional. So shall mine be to you. I believe that you have, and will continue to, take this to the Lord. I therefore trust your judgement on the matter.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I'm not asking to be argumentative, but rather just to clarify.

You are saying then that college-aged males (around 18-22) would still be considered children?

This is one of the main premises of the thread. A church that teaches only males in leadership but has female teachers on staff at the college that is bringing up the next generation of pastors and teachers.

And if women aren't (if even subconsciously) expected to do things such as teach Sunday school, why aren't we seeing all-male staffs doing this instead?

No I think that's a valid question. I think that as a society boys transition into men had somewhere between 18 and 21 respectively at least according to the law and culturally.
And I think that we start treading into dangerous Waters at this stage. If you look at the text Paul references Adam and Eve and the order of creation and who was deceived and who was not deceived. Now in other texts it's written let the older women teach the younger women and older men teach the younger men, and there is wisdom in this statement and I think it's for the same reason that Paul is forbidding women to be in a seat of authority over a man, and that is the sexual relationship. I think the directive here has less to do with who's capable and more to do with temptation towards inappropriate relationships.
And what are we seeing as a culture as a result of us ignoring the texts of scripture? We are seeing the continual increase of inappropriate sexual relationships with teachers and students both male and female, and to go along with it we leave out the directive to Timothy that the men who are to be officers and have authority in the church or in any public arena should be married and their families are a reflective of how they manage things.
So it's my opinion and I derive it from the scriptures that older women should teach younger women older men should teach younger men and those who are doing the teaching should be married and their family business should be well in order.

 

[oyster67]

Why is there no scriptural answer? Could it be because the truth is that women can not really have authority over men in church? Because the God ordained role of men is to be leaders and women is to be supporters. That is why we should not be conformed with the ways of the world. The world has already switched the roles of men and women the way satan wanted it. But in the house of the Lord, His word must still be followed.

Maybe it is so simple that we flew right by it...

Matthew 22
22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
22:35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[tourist]

Do you mean that women cannot sing and praise God during worship service? That's really sad to think about.

Apparently, it is a sin for a woman to openly praise and worship God in a church service. God probably has reserved a special place in hell for women of this ilk. Especially, for a woman that dares to wear slacks to church or refuses to cover her head. I agree that it's really sad to think about.

 

[kaylagrl]

What is not true? Struggles in the church is part of growth. That's why everyone must help so the burden is not only on the leaders. And failure is not the end. It is just the beginning of learning.

"That is the normal life of the pastor. Constantly under spiritual attack. If the pastor is not struggling, then maybe devil must be slacking since he got him already. But a godly pastor and a godly supportive wife, doing their roles properly, becomes a powerhouse that the devil can never beat."

This is what I disagreed with. Many churches have been split, pastors have been forced to leave, churches have shut down through no fault of the pastor. I've seen lives torn apart by these issues. I'm simply saying people need to be aware of what their pastors face.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Apparently, it is a sin for a woman to openly praise and worship God in a church service. God probably has reserved a special place in hell for women of this ilk. Especially, for a woman that dares to wear slacks to church or refuses to cover her head. I agree that it's really sad to think about.

All women are going to hell ...don't you know God hates women. I mean he made them and all, but it's like a batch of cookies where you use salt instead of sugar on accident, so you just put them in the cookie jar with the good ones anyway because it's funny to watch someone else get one but you end up with one so it makes you mad and you burn the whole kitchen down and start over, but now you only make cookies with salt cause your mean like that

 

[seoulsearch]

I will stand by you, no matter which way you go on this. You will always be my much beloved sister. God's love to me is unconditional. So shall mine be to you. I believe that you have, and will continue to, take this to the Lord. I therefore trust your judgement on the matter.

Thank you, Oyster. I appreciate your kind and considerate words. Please know that I am definitely not trying to promote anything that goes against the Bible. And I would certainly not ask you to support me in something I believed if it were wrong, but I know I could look to you for a wise and compassionate correction.

I actually don't write these threads expecting to get direct answers or to try to "prove" that one side of an issue (whether or not women can teach men) is right or wrong. These are the types of questions I've been asking all my life (I'm in my 40's now), and no one has ever been able to give an exact answer.

Rather, I ask these types of questions because I like to hear what other people have seen and experienced regarding the subject at hand. For instance:

* Have you been part of a church that teaches one thing, but does another? How would you want to see it resolved?

* How did these inconsistencies affect you personally?

* On what basis were leaders selected and removed in your church?

* What conclusion have you personally come to regarding the matter, and what passages do you believe support your beliefs?

These are the kinds of things I'm looking for in these discussions, not a battlefield over who's right or wrong.

My own personal belief is that God's intention was for men to lead. However, as in the case of someone like Deborah, or Jael (who drove a tent peg into an enemy's skull), I do believe that there may be times when God can't find a man (or enough men) to accomplish what He wants to do, and in that case, might very well call His women instead or alongside them.

If I had two sons, and one wanted to be a doctor, and the other one wanted to be a pastor, I would want each of them to have the best available teacher in both areas of study, whether it be a man or a woman. If my pastoral son found that it was a female professor who had the most experience and knowledge in a certain area and that a male instructor for this could not be found, I would by all means encourage him to take the female professor's class. I would want the very best teachers for my sons, whether those teachers were male or female, and I believe this is what God would want as well.

However, I do think it's an issue that requires God's guidance in every step, and that there are consequences in either direction.

If the belief that only men may lead and teach in the church is correct, those who adhere will have the blessing of God's approval and anointing. But if this belief is incorrect, then there are a lot of people who are going to miss out on a blessing that God might have placed within women who were not allowed to utilize their gifts.

And if the belief that women CAN lead and teach is correct, again, these people will have the blessing of God, as well as a larger pool of adults whose talents they can draw from. But if this is something that God does not approve of, there will surely be consequences and, if God sees fit, correction for this as well.

I know that all I can do is let Him be the one to sort it out and try my best to follow where He leads me.

From my own study, I can't conclude for myself that I am 100% grounded in either view - I carry a little of both. But this is just me, and I'm not trying to convince anyone else, nor am I asking anyone else to convince me otherwise.

What I'm actually trying to do is just trying to glean information from our vast and talented pool of fellow believers here in order to get people thinking and asking themselves questions about these issues too, as well as making the point that if a church claims to be 100% behind one side or the other, it seems logical to expect them to be consistent throughout their policies.

 

[seoulsearch]

Here area a few other examples I've often talked about:

In my Lutheran high school, there was a group of popular boys who would do things like show off the condoms they carried in their wallets and brag about going to the local strip club on weekends. Years later at a class reunion, one of these guys brought along his wife - a stripper he had met while partying in the Caribbean, and she wore clothes that I would imagine she wears to "work."

I was once friends with a girl whose parents were heavily involved in a church I used to attend. She hated that people expected her to be perfect and decided to go her own way, eventually working at the same strip club that the boys in my high school had attended. The most ironic thing is that she told me that elders from the church (who weren't single, so I wonder if their wives knew) would walk in, feel convicted after they saw her, and then walk out. But their conviction wasn't from going to the club - it was seeing the daughter of one of the church leaders. If she wouldn't have been there, they would have made themselves right at home, as the apparently still did on the nights she wasn't there.

And in my hometown, a local pastor (of a church some of my family members had attended) was sentenced to prison for being caught in possession of child pornography.

Should pastors and leaders caught up in sexual vices be removed from their positions? If only men and lead in the church, how many will be left who are pure of such things? Two friends of mine who have spent a lifetime in ministry were telling me about a pastor's conference that was so large, they had booked up an entire hotel for all the attendants. In other words, during that weekend, all the rooms were occupied by people who were pastors and leaders in churches. And at the end of the conference, over 90% of the rooms had ordered pornographic films during their stay.

Should pastors and teachers be removed for regularly watching pornographic materials? If we put monitors on everything that pastors and leaders viewed or watched and tallied up the results, how many would be seen as still worthy of leadership? And are these men to be socially condemned and ostracized more than anyone else viewing these things because they took a position in the church?

My point is, as the wickedness of the world increases, and as both men and women get caught up in it (because I am certainly not trying to blame men), if Biblical expectations of leadership are to be upheld, I personally believe that God will call anyone He can find, regardless of gender, who might possibly even hope to meet just a fraction of these standards.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Seoul I think using women's gifts by being support preacher and teaching future pastors is enough. The woman is not allowed to lead his husband per scripture. She should only support him. Should she lead the whole church? Leading the whole church means leading her husband also.

 

[Dino246]

... If you look at the text Paul references Adam and Eve and the order of creation and who was deceived and who was not deceived. Now in other texts it's written let the older women teach the younger women and older men teach the younger men, and there is wisdom in this statement and I think it's for the same reason that Paul is forbidding women to be in a seat of authority over a man, and that is the sexual relationship. I think the directive here has less to do with who's capable and more to do with temptation towards inappropriate relationships.

There is absolutely no reason to think a man in leadership over a woman is any less of a potential temptation than a woman in leadership over a man. I agree though; women should teach women, and men should teach men. Who was deceived in Genesis 3 is irrelevant.

So it's my opinion and I derive it from the scriptures that older women should teach younger women older men should teach younger men and those who are doing the teaching should be married and their family business should be well in order.

Sadly, being married is no guarantee that a person won't be tempted either. It only guarantees that the person will be under less scrutiny in that area....

 

[Dino246]

Seoul I think using women's gifts by being support preacher and teaching future pastors is enough. The woman is not allowed to lead his husband per scripture. She should only support him. Should she lead the whole church? Leading the whole church means leading her husband also.

Should a woman who comes to Christ years before her husband does allow him to lead her from a position of ignorance?

What of the unmarried woman?

What of the woman who is gifted to preach and teach, and whose husband is gifted with helps?

Where in Scripture does it say that a woman is "not allowed to lead" her husband?

I don't ask these questions merely to pick on you. I ask them because I believe it is worthwhile to challenge attitudes that aren't solidly rooted in Scripture or applicable across the full range of real-life situations.

 

[Tinkerbell725]

Should a woman who comes to Christ years before her husband does allow him to lead her from a position of ignorance?

She should support him or influence him to be a good leader and introduce him to Christ.

What of the unmarried woman?

She is not qualified to lead the church.

What of the woman who is gifted to preach and teach, and whose husband is gifted with helps?

She can preach in other ministries.

Where in Scripture does it say that a woman is "not allowed to lead" her husband?

She is the supporter. Exer kenegdo. You know it very well. The husband is accountable. He is appointed leader.

I don't ask these questions merely to pick on you. I ask them because I believe it is worthwhile to challenge attitudes that aren't solidly rooted in Scripture or applicable across the full range of real-life situations.