If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

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Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
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Thank you for taking the time to explain some of your thoughts.

Going from some of the wording you used, such as, "I would assume in order to begin with," and "I would say in order to be safe", I am guessing that you personally have not seen the progression of a man who went from a church member to being mentored, taught, and then established as an official pastor at your church?

One of the things my old synod did was to never allow a pastor to be assigned to a congregation he grew up in, according to, "A prophet is not without honor, EXCEPT in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own home" (Mark 6:4.)

I understand your point and references about a pastor being a good role model, as well as having his family under control. However, all pastors are human. People expect perfection but that's not what they're getting, and the churches are running out of pastors. While I was growing up, 3 pastors in my church and school had kids who chose their own paths, and several members of the congregation called for them to be removed. One was let go, but for various reasons, the other 2 were kept on staff. I know this would take the discussion in an entirely different direction, so I'll just stop there.

I do find it interesting though that you seem to have an idea of how a pastor should be made, but haven't actually witnessed any in the making yourself, thereby you have no personal experience in seeing how your recommended process would be carried out, or what the results were?
Some of the Pentecostal pastors I know come from churches that gave them some kind of license, and apparently it's accepted by the state.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
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Must have slipped my mind Dino. C'mon Dino. I live in the real world. Many people deal with these issues were talking about. Do you really think I dont get that?

I havent been in my walk long enough to see any of this happen. I grew up not wanting to go to church as a kid. I was too busy living a life of sin. But God saved me from that life. And here I am. A student in Christ.

So no I havent experienced any pastors come up from the ground up. I know 3 guys who are on their way to being pastors, who know the word of God, but I disagree that they qualify.

One of the brothers is in his 40s and he is in bible college. Has his wife and kids. And they seem to be doing good. But he lacks in confidence to speak in front of people. And his application to scripture in context isnt very refined. Its hard to understand his points.

The other brother also is in his 40s but does not have a church he is rooted in. He is divorced from his wife, and his son is a typical teenager who wants new phones, video games and money from his dad. His son doesnt go to church. This doesnt seem to fit the mold of 1 Timothy 3. (Husband of one wife.)

The other guy might not even be a genuine Christian. Hes in his 50s and had demons cast out of him in front of an entire church that he got kicked out of. Has numerous children by numerous women and had been indulging in alcohol and women the last time I heard of him.

Either way these guys claim to be pastors. But I dont see how they qualify or that I agree. I may lack experience, but I make up for it in understanding.

You had mentioned a shortage of pastors? Well that may be due to the number of churches. There shouldn't be so many different churches and then maybe if we all congregated under one roof maybe we would all have the same men as our pastors and elders.

There are way too many denominations and doctrines to know what to do or which church to go to.
May I ask, have you considered being a pastor yourself? I just say this because you say you make up for experience with understanding, and you seem to be stating that you have great knowledge as to what a pastor should be, and how he should go about it.

I grew up among pastor's and teacher's kids, and saw first hand the tremendous pressure they were going through because they were expected to be perfect at all times. I understand the Bible's guidelines for leadership, but I wonder how literally God meant for that to be taken in a world where finding any of us who meet even the basic qualifications is nearly impossible. It's always easy to say, "This person should do this and not do that; this person should be this and should be that," but I think we also have to balance that with God telling us to take the planks out of our own eyes first before judging people too harshly.

I'm not arguing against Biblical standards for leadership; I just think it also has to be tempered with the reality that no one person can control all the actions of everyone in their family.

I've just always felt that anyone who knew what a pastor, teacher, or leader should be should definitely take a turn at being one so that they would understand the 24/7 fishbowl life they have to live as a result, because the expectations are enough to drive some to suicide attempts and nervous breakdowns (as was the case with some of the pastors I grew up with.)

I do agree with you about there being too many churches. I read an interesting article a while back about "Jesus's Unanswered Prayers", which included His journey to the cross ("If there's any other way..." but apparently, there wasn't), and that He asked for unity among believers (John 17:20-23,) but with the number of denominations growing every day, I doubt that prayer will be answered until the day Jesus comes back.

I do truly believe that if the church were unified as Jesus asked, this might cut down on the shortage of clergy as well, although, it might also mean that the church would grow in greater numbers, thereby increasing the need for leadership.

As far as married women being under the authority of their husband and so forth, I am not married, and seeing as I'm heading into middle age, it's doubtful that I will get married, so some passages, such as those about married women asking their husbands if they have questions, would have to be handled differently in my situation.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
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Merced, CA
I'm just finding it interesting that you've pointed out the flaws you see in Bible colleges, even going so far as to say that there is no use in going to them, but as an alternative, all you seem to offer are assumptions at what you "think" might make a pastor.

I'm not criticizing your ideas, and I'm certainly not saying that Bible colleges get everything right (henceforth the very purpose behind my thread.)

But what I WOULD like to ask, how do you know what makes a pastor when you've never experienced nor observed the process for yourself?

I'm not trying to claim to be any kind of expert either. I just know that as a kid growing up we saw part of the process: the programs potential teachers and pastors had to take in high school; the colleges they would be directed to; teacher and vicars in training from the Bible colleges who both sat in to observe our classes and at churches for several semesters of teaching or preaching, all as part of their required Bible college and then seminary training.

(I'm trying to remember, but I believe in the synod I grew up in, it took 8 years of schooling beyond high school, and another 2 years of active, on-the-job training as a vicar in a congregation other than their hometown.)
Well for one, the bible says what it takes to be a pastor. You just have to study the bible for yourself to see.

Secondly I know alot about leadership. There is always a chain of command when coordinating a body of people. The leadership role always carries characteristics, qualities and attributes necessary to fill the position. These are outlined with scripture using 1 Timothy 3.

Take any military branch, take the president/commander in chief, take a ceo of a company, any and all organizations have a leader orchestrating the direction of its members. In order for the body to move in a fluid motion with less obsticals depends on the one leading the group. Any well running orginization depends on a group of leaders at the top assisting the one in command. A super intendant briefs its supervisors, supervisors brief their managers, managers brief their subordinates. Its all chain of command. It starts at the top.

So to boil it down, pastors recieve their training at bible colleges. So bible college is the chain of command head quarters. This is where doctrine and fundamentals are filtered out to the masses. If the headquarter pushes any doctrine to its members being trained in their facility, that same doctrine will be passed down in your hometown church. Once that person is embraced into your congregation with the qualifications issued by the bible college its only a matter of time for the views of the bible college to be pushed onto the congregation.

So the pastor is connected to a bigger infrastructure. And these are labeled as denominations to sigify the affiliation. Im taking this observation from my own personal experience with the pentecostal church here where I live. (I am not a pentecostal.) They hold a Landmark conference every year at one of the bible colleges here in California.

All the ideas and directions of the church start from the top. And they are ingrained into the bible college students. The problem is that some of the ideas and doctrines are flawed. But the colleges have made them gospel. With so many individuals being programmed in mass volumes, it creates the probability to influence others, to believe the same theology, a greater probability.

This eventually will just be alot harder to refute because people are being indoctrinated continually year after year. This infultrates a larger span over time, and even better if you have a few success stories to make it to megachurch scale using the bible colleges ideals and doctrine. Feeding the masses.

In a nutshell this is what I gathered from what seems to be going on in churches today. And thats why there are so many doctrines. Rhema bible college in Oklahoma is one with many false doctrines. But to the students who studied there it is gospel truth. I should know because my mother attended Rhema and received a certificate as Minister. Her doctrine is false.
 

TLC209

Active member
Mar 20, 2019
545
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Merced, CA
May I ask, have you considered being a pastor yourself? I just say this because you say you make up for experience with understanding, and you seem to be stating that you have great knowledge as to what a pastor should be, and how he should go about it.

I grew up among pastor's and teacher's kids, and saw first hand the tremendous pressure they were going through because they were expected to be perfect at all times. I understand the Bible's guidelines for leadership, but I wonder how literally God meant for that to be taken in a world where finding any of us who meet even the basic qualifications is nearly impossible. It's always easy to say, "This person should do this and not do that; this person should be this and should be that," but I think we also have to balance that with God telling us to take the planks out of our own eyes first before judging people too harshly.

I'm not arguing against Biblical standards for leadership; I just think it also has to be tempered with the reality that no one person can control all the actions of everyone in their family.

I've just always felt that anyone who knew what a pastor, teacher, or leader should be should definitely take a turn at being one so that they would understand the 24/7 fishbowl life they have to live as a result, because the expectations are enough to drive some to suicide attempts and nervous breakdowns (as was the case with some of the pastors I grew up with.)

I do agree with you about there being too many churches. I read an interesting article a while back about "Jesus's Unanswered Prayers", which included His journey to the cross ("If there's any other way..." but apparently, there wasn't), and that He asked for unity among believers (John 17:20-23,) but with the number of denominations growing every day, I doubt that prayer will be answered until the day Jesus comes back.

I do truly believe that if the church were unified as Jesus asked, this might cut down on the shortage of clergy as well, although, it might also mean that the church would grow in greater numbers, thereby increasing the need for leadership.

As far as married women being under the authority of their husband and so forth, I am not married, and seeing as I'm heading into middle age, it's doubtful that I will get married, so some passages, such as those about married women asking their husbands if they have questions, would have to be handled differently in my situation.
Im not married. And im not an example that would be adequate for a pastoral position. I did alot of wrong in my life.

God gifted me as a teacher. So who knows what God will use me for. Im surrendered to God. So im open to what God has planned for me. Im just learning for now. Im a student. Who one day will help teach.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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OP maybe a problem with your particular church...or maybe cos these women in college arent teaching married men.

I dont know if its meant to mean that married men are just meant to come to church to be taught by men because at home they are always around women anyway and maybe they just need a break. Church maybe the only time they get a chance to speak...?

I dont know if its anything to do with being married. Supposedly women that were married missed out on any higher edcuation back then. In tertiary education they still call degrees bachelor degrees, then Masters then doctorates. Why they named it this is because if someone was going to devote their life to study, they would be too busy studying to raise a family, and thus remained celibate and single.

I always wondered why women never obtained spinster degrees, or mistress degree! Some women seem only to go to college just to get their MRS degree. I mean do women really want to stay dumb?

It is an interesting question and never fully resolved because of the double standards of our culture.
I remember hearing a speaker talk about World Vision and how he was sponsored, and how he wants more people to sponsor girls because girls just werent getting an education in Africa. They spend most their lives carrying water to and fro and I think its very unfair that only girls were designated for this not boys.

So for your culture OP what a privelige and a blessing that these women can teach and have the opportunity rather than be stuck carrying water with nothing being done to grow their minds. In some parts of the world they would not entertain any idea of a woman teaching or having a voice.

Interesting that Proverbs 8 designates wisdom as female.

I mean lets face it...sometimes what a man really needs to do is...listen to his mother. But how many men actually do this...? If hes not listening to his mother...he would be listening to his wife. Because adam listened to his wife, he was punished. But see, Adam had no mother.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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I do find it interesting though that you seem to have an idea of how a pastor should be made, but haven't actually witnessed any in the making yourself, thereby you have no personal experience in seeing how your recommended process would be carried out, or what the results were?
I have seen this many times in the Mennonite Church that I have attended for the last 20 years. It worked for the early Church, and it works for them.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Im not married. And im not an example that would be adequate for a pastoral position. I did alot of wrong in my life.

God gifted me as a teacher. So who knows what God will use me for. Im surrendered to God. So im open to what God has planned for me. Im just learning for now. Im a student. Who one day will help teach.
Strong layman (even single ones) can have almost as much POSITIVE influence in a Church as a Pastor, especially if they are allowed to teach Sunday School.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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* If you don't believe in Bible colleges, how do you believe one becomes an official pastor/Biblical teacher?
Firstly, six months of new-member training is required before one can even become a member and/or teacher. When an opening for a Ministerial position comes up, nominations take place.
It is done in very formal Church meetings. Several candidates are chosen who have all the NT qualifications (including a good reputation and teaching ability as observed in Sunday School.) Final step is the Lot. Literally. This is the way it was done in the Bible. We believe that God directly influences how this comes out.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
I have a simple problem with the words "authority over"
I do not know of men or women who have authority over someone except in the army or in a business.
If one imagines a dispute, someone has to finally say, this is the answer, if the subject is about a group.

Different groups have different decision making structures, and how conclusions are drawn up.
What has come about is a group statement, to which all members agree, so by definition eliminating those
who do not agree as outside the group. Within such groups, individuals are given authority to decide issues.
So Paul is saying he does not agree with a woman deciding such an issue in regard to a man.

Now Paul says simple, he does not permit this, not the Lord does not permit this.
Other places he states clearly, the Lord says, not I.

In Pauls culture women rarely had education, and knew are great deal, so as a rule he was applying a
simple skill set criteria of organisations of the day. Today things have changed greatly, and both men
and women are equally capable and qualified to hold positions of authority and know the issues at hand.

And though there is much dispute in the church on this issue, most recognise from simply growing up,
a measure of an individual is not their sex. And a lot of christian organisations need talented people to
lead and inspire, and if they are a woman, will encourage and use them as best they can.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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As far as married women being under the authority of their husband and so forth, I am not married, and seeing as I'm heading into middle age, it's doubtful that I will get married, so some passages, such as those about married women asking their husbands if they have questions, would have to be handled differently in my situation.
You are one of the greatest and most influencial women of God I have ever known. You sharpen, challenge, and encourage me daily.

1 Cor 7
7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
7:34 There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please [her] husband.
7:35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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In the church does anyone truly have authority over another?

Jesus had authority over spiritual realms, over illness, over what was going to happen, as the Father
gave Him direction. Jesus commanded His disciples as they submitted to His place, rather than
Him claiming a place, they came under conviction as to who He was, He never pushed it.

Jesus's whole teaching was here is the way, follow me in this way. Listen to me, obey me if you
love me, choose to discipline yourselves, to give up what you freely have for me, and to fight
for things that you value.

As far as teachers go, He told us to listen to Him and the Holy Spirit as our teachers, and not have
people who we sought to be our authority rather than God himself.

Jesus washed our feet, he saw need and then ministered to it. It was a proclamation as to the way
to life, the road to eternity, to the eternal truths of the heart and our deepest desires.

In disputes often people want to "win" not knowing Christ just wants us to love, and to see each
other as we are, and appreciate our perspectives and our weaknesses and then walk on in His
ways.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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I understand this, and have seen other people make this point as well.

But this misses the very point I'm trying to make in this thread: the Lutheran college I would have gone to if I had wanted to be a Lutheran teacher has a large percentage of female staff.

Males in college would be around 18-22 (probably longer, as I don't remember how long it took to be a teacher or pastor.) In other words, these are fully-grown adults, and, I'm guessing, according to your definition, men - not children, not youths, not teens, but what I'm assuming would be seen in society as (hopefully) full-grown, adult males. But in this situation, women are instructing them and apparently, having authority over them.

The Lutheran synod (or at least, local church and schools I went to) I was raised in (WELS) does not allow any woman on a church board or to attend meetings of authority because they firmly believe in the ever-quoted passages about women not speaking in church, not having authority over men, and that if a woman has a question about church matters, she should ask her husband at home.

Butyet they have women teaching men, albeit presumably younger men, in a college that is raising up the next generation of pastors and teachers.

Now, I appreciate my former pastors and teachers, and am grateful for the Biblical background they gave me.

But I've seen inconsistencies like this all my life, and I'm at a point where I almost (almost, not quite yet) find them comical.
Well 18 and 19 are still teen agers..

But woman should not have authority over men.. So if those female teachers have authority over men in their classes then it is not a Biblical practice..

I guess it all comes back to the term Authority.. Do teachers these days really have authority over adult age students ?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
7,250
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lawton ok
Well 18 and 19 are still teen agers..

But woman should not have authority over men.. So if those female teachers have authority over men in their classes then it is not a Biblical practice..

I guess it all comes back to the term Authority.. Do teachers these days really have authority over adult age students ?
I think there is the cultural difference between then and now to consider too. Remember women couldn't sign contracts, own real estate, vote or wear slacks either.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
3,982
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Philippines Age 40
In the church does anyone truly have authority over another?

Jesus had authority over spiritual realms, over illness, over what was going to happen, as the Father
gave Him direction. Jesus commanded His disciples as they submitted to His place, rather than
Him claiming a place, they came under conviction as to who He was, He never pushed it.

Jesus's whole teaching was here is the way, follow me in this way. Listen to me, obey me if you
love me, choose to discipline yourselves, to give up what you freely have for me, and to fight
for things that you value.

As far as teachers go, He told us to listen to Him and the Holy Spirit as our teachers, and not have
people who we sought to be our authority rather than God himself.

Jesus washed our feet, he saw need and then ministered to it. It was a proclamation as to the way
to life, the road to eternity, to the eternal truths of the heart and our deepest desires.

In disputes often people want to "win" not knowing Christ just wants us to love, and to see each
other as we are, and appreciate our perspectives and our weaknesses and then walk on in His
ways.
The term authority that is implied in the discussion is more like control in my opinion. The leadership role of men is not to control but to be accountable, be responsible, to be ready to lay down your life for your people like Jesus did, like a shepherd always watching his flock.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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In the church does anyone truly have authority over another?

Jesus had authority over spiritual realms, over illness, over what was going to happen, as the Father
gave Him direction. Jesus commanded His disciples as they submitted to His place, rather than
Him claiming a place, they came under conviction as to who He was, He never pushed it.

Jesus's whole teaching was here is the way, follow me in this way. Listen to me, obey me if you
love me, choose to discipline yourselves, to give up what you freely have for me, and to fight
for things that you value.

As far as teachers go, He told us to listen to Him and the Holy Spirit as our teachers, and not have
people who we sought to be our authority rather than God himself.

Jesus washed our feet, he saw need and then ministered to it. It was a proclamation as to the way
to life, the road to eternity, to the eternal truths of the heart and our deepest desires.

In disputes often people want to "win" not knowing Christ just wants us to love, and to see each
other as we are, and appreciate our perspectives and our weaknesses and then walk on in His
ways.
No one has authority over another in that way. We are commanded not to lord it over each other. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. One is our Father in heaven

The idea that only men can offer the gospel as doing the work of a evangelist is not a biblical teaching. It would seem to some the reformation has not occurred and the government of the church has not been restored to the previous time period of Judges .

This is when God sent the apostle Deborah along with the apostle Barak. The Holy Spirit working in them both to will and preform his good pleasure as a imputed righteousness..

He sends us out as apostles two by two. The number two represents the bride of Christ. The two literally will become one new body a new creation in the new heavens and earth. (called the bride) We will be like the angels with no way to multiply.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Good question. 1 Timothy 3 explains the requirements for the pastoral role.
Respectfully, no it doesn't. 1 Timothy 3 outlines the qualifications for elders, not pastors. Scripture does not list any qualifications for pastors. The modern church has conflated the terms.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
15,120
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They can go the Pastor and His wife They are a team and they can give both perspectives of relationship difficulties. Male or female. Church is a place of worship and getting out the gospel. Not a place to solve relationship difference with the opposite sex which it had turned out when the change came
That's silly. Where but the Church would a Christian go for godly wisdom and counsel on relationships? Not every community has a gifted Christian counselor, and many people wouldn't go to a professional counselor anyway, but might go to a pastor.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
15,120
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Must have slipped my mind Dino. C'mon Dino. I live in the real world. Many people deal with these issues were talking about. Do you really think I dont get that?
It's a fair question in light of the comment I quoted.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
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That's silly. Where but the Church would a Christian go for godly wisdom and counsel on relationships? Not every community has a gifted Christian counselor, and many people wouldn't go to a professional counselor anyway, but might go to a pastor.
I wish I could agree with you, that this is the principle of life and love.
But on the subject of fidelity and pornography, a large number of "pastors" have no understanding of sowing
to the flesh and teaching men to love their wives rather than as sex objects. Fidelity in this case was the wife
is there to satisfy the needs of the husband, and was their fault if this was not fulfilled.

Pastors sometimes avoid emotions and have no clue what emotional openness or love that sets our hearts
free in Christ. So when serious emotional issues come up, they run away.

Just take this forum as an example and talk about relationships and emotional interaction, for some it is
like crytonite to superman. But the truth is Jesus calls us to know our hearts and our walks, so I wonder
how many really know the power of Christ working in their hearts?
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
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Some of the Pentecostal pastors I know come from churches that gave them some kind of license, and apparently it's accepted by the state.
Must be independent Pentecostals, AofG only accepts people from their colleges.