If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

[7seasrekeyed]

frankly I don't know why women would want that responsibility

have you seen what they do? no wonder Jesus appeared to one of us first

far too many have head knowledge (not that that is not also true of women) and no heart and no Spirit

women...enjoy where God has placed you. He knows what he was doing then and now

don't be encumbered by false positions or authority

we are one in Christ and He just does not see us all divided up and some higher than others

just my 2.5 cents

 

[kaylagrl]

Must have slipped my mind Dino. C'mon Dino. I live in the real world. Many people deal with these issues were talking about. Do you really think I dont get that?

I havent been in my walk long enough to see any of this happen. I grew up not wanting to go to church as a kid. I was too busy living a life of sin. But God saved me from that life. And here I am. A student in Christ.

So no I havent experienced any pastors come up from the ground up. I know 3 guys who are on their way to being pastors, who know the word of God, but I disagree that they qualify.

One of the brothers is in his 40s and he is in bible college. Has his wife and kids. And they seem to be doing good. But he lacks in confidence to speak in front of people. And his application to scripture in context isnt very refined. Its hard to understand his points.

Confidence in speaking only comes from actually doing it. None of this disqualifies him, he'll get seasoned with time.



The other brother also is in his 40s but does not have a church he is rooted in. He is divorced from his wife, and his son is a typical teenager who wants new phones, video games and money from his dad. His son doesnt go to church. This doesnt seem to fit the mold of 1 Timothy 3. (Husband of one wife.)


I tend to agree with you here. I wouldn't say a divorced person cannot be a pastor, you cannot force a person to stay in a marriage. But he seems to have issues at home that he needs to care for. Ministry only puts more pressure on a family.

The other guy might not even be a genuine Christian. Hes in his 50s and had demons cast out of him in front of an entire church that he got kicked out of. Has numerous children by numerous women and had been indulging in alcohol and women the last time I heard of him.

Well honestly this is what Bible college helps to weed out. Not in all cases mind you, but I think it holds people accountable.



Either way these guys claim to be pastors. But I dont see how they qualify or that I agree. I may lack experience, but I make up for it in understanding.

You had mentioned a shortage of pastors? Well that may be due to the number of churches. There shouldn't be so many different churches and then maybe if we all congregated under one roof maybe we would all have the same men as our pastors and elders.

There are way too many denominations and doctrines to know what to do or which church to go to.

Most denominations have to do with how they govern the church. Wesleyans aren't that different from Nazarenes etc. More of a preference I think.

 

[seoulsearch]

Good morning, Everyone.

It's going to take me some time to catch up here and I might not be able to respond/comment on every post made, but I want you to know that I greatly appreciate people taking the time to post. Life is always so busy that I'm very grateful for those who choose to spend several moments of their spare time to read and perhaps share something here.

Just a couple of quick responses I wanted to make:

TLC -- You'd mentioned that the Bible says what it takes to be a leader in the church. While I'm certainly not an expert, this is something I am at least a little familiar with through the Bible classes at my schools and watching the process in action when, as I'd mentioned before, a few of the pastor's kids got into trouble and many in the congregations were calling for their dismissal.

I wanted to tell you that I admire the fact that you honestly stated that you don't feel you're qualified to be a pastor. You never know what God may have planned. I remember a sermon once about a man who was inviting the other men over for backyard BBQ's and trying to help them through challenges of life and while he insisted he was just a regular guy, the church leadership commended him for being a "casual pastor" to these other men.

Lanolin -- I had to smile at your comment asking why women don't obtain spinster degrees (as in, why are they called bachelor's degrees,) and some women only want to obtain a MRS degree. You then asked, "I mean do women really want to stay dumb?"

It's an interesting question because it seems to be a double-edged sword. One of the privileges I've had during my time on CC is to speak to people with many different experiences, and some come from modern churches that still hold doctrines that women are not to go to school, work outside the home, or even drive. They are to remain solely dependent on men for everything and to do otherwise is to have the Jezebel spirit of rebellion.

Even here on CC, we see a lot of talk about the "evils of feminist poison that destroy the family unit", and if you are a women who seeks out an education and a career, many in Christian circles will see you as being "one of them," or being part of the problem.

I know you also mentioned cultural factors in your post -- just as a clarification, I've lived in the US all my life so American culture is all I know.


I certainly can't claim to be any kind of doctrinal guru. At best, I can only say that I'm someone who was intensively exposed to 2 extremely different denominations (WELS Lutheran and Assemblies of God), and am always amazed to find radical differences even within the denominations themselves.

One of the most helpful aspects of the answers given here are the things others have experienced in their own Christian walk. This helps me realize that some of the things I'm unsure or troubled about might actually be due to demographics or differences between denominations.

I apologize if I don't give an answer to every post but I will read through them and want you to know that your time, thoughts, and efforts are much appreciated.

 

[tourist]

Qualification though requires man to be the head of a woman. That was the point. Woman can be the head of a broken home, you made that clear. Gods home is not a broken home. We have a Father. We are not Fatherless.

So why use the example of a broken home and the single mother as thee example for the church body? (Meaning having that woman pastor a church.) That doesnt make any sense. I think you just wanted to point out that women can be the head of household in a broken home and that is unfortunate, but definetely not ideal.

The thing is, there are many women that are the head of a broken home due to the father not being present, or perhaps present but abusive and unfaithful. I really don't see how man is superior to women in regards of positions of leadership. If the man was truly qualified in all aspects than why isn't he the head of the home where his ex wife or separated wife and children live?

 

[kaylagrl]

The thing is, there are many women that are the head of a broken home due to the father not being present, or perhaps present but abusive and unfaithful. I really don't see how man is superior to women in regards of positions of leadership. If the man was truly qualified in all aspects than why isn't he the head of the home where his ex wife or separated wife and children live?

I agree. My sister is raising her two boys alone right now and she's married. Her husband has quit church and has pretty much checked out. It's not a place she wants to be in, but has no choice, sadly.

 

[Dino246]

I wish I could agree with you, that this is the principle of life and love.
But on the subject of fidelity and pornography, a large number of "pastors" have no understanding of sowing
to the flesh and teaching men to love their wives rather than as sex objects. Fidelity in this case was the wife
is there to satisfy the needs of the husband, and was their fault if this was not fulfilled.

Pastors sometimes avoid emotions and have no clue what emotional openness or love that sets our hearts
free in Christ. So when serious emotional issues come up, they run away.

Just take this forum as an example and talk about relationships and emotional interaction, for some it is
like crytonite to superman. But the truth is Jesus calls us to know our hearts and our walks, so I wonder
how many really know the power of Christ working in their hearts?

Please read the comment to which I responded.

That said, I agree... many pastors aren't equipped or trained, or have biases or personal issues that will interfere with their ability to counsel objectively and constructively.

 

[Lanolin]

My reading of scripture and the comments Paul made about women lead me to think that many women in his time and sitting in congregations were quite vociferous and 'bolshy'. Some of them might have been like the nagging wife in Proverbs who is a continually dripping and causing men to run away.

For example Martha. MArtha complains to Jesus why isnt Mary helping me? but Jesus just says Martha you are cumbered about with many things...Mary has chosen the better part and it shall not be taken away from her.

Where was Mary? Sitting At Jesus feet, listening.

It is true God did make men first. Adam before Eve. In Gods order of things, men are meant to have the first turn. Interestingly, Adam abdicated his responssibility and let Eve sort of take over. GOd has not spoken to Eve the way God had instructed Adam. She heard things secondhand. She wasnt even around when God gave Adam the instructions..she was still in his rib!

What about Jesus twelve disciples, all men. The disciples didnt stay at the cross like the women did, and werent the first at the resurrection. They ran away, even Peter denied Jesus...after declaring that he would stay by his side forever! So the women got to be the first witnesses. They werent quite believed but if the men had stayed like the women did they would have been first too. The male disicples actually ran to see who could get there first. (Typical men?)

So when Paul writes about women keeping silence in churches...I imagine that he wants to men to step up and be the ones to take the lead, as the natural order of things. To say to the women, be quiet and allow the men to get a word in.

Now what does this mean in terms of our culture. And for us women? I think it means to respect men in their capacity to lead...In many cases in the Bible the firstborns are always male. But this is not true of many of us. My eldest sibling is my sister. My mother was the first of eight siblings, and the first five were daughters before any sons. Nobody is ever going to say to us women shut up and dont get an education. Why because we are it. Its all on us. Men can be quite intimidated at how much a woman knows. This is why sometimes its smart to just play dumb. Let the men go first. They are thicker and can shield us from the bullets. Perhaps.

I think of those girls carrying water to and fro. Come on where are the boys. Why are the girls doing all the hard work. I had a boss that got me to mow all the lawns in this job I had once and I was going deaf from all the noise. Well one day I was mowing lawns with my earmuffs on and couldnt hear this rattling noise that the others could hear which was the meaning the lawnmower was about to blow up.
Thankfully they heard it before and stopped the machine before any disaster.

The moral of this story..well actually its nothing to do with men and women really, its just its way too noisy that I couldnt hear anything. Same thing in church. Why not do as quakers do and not even speak at all.

Let God have the first say.

letter Titus was equal oppoturnity for Paul to write 'there are many vain talkers and deceivers, specially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses teaching things they ought not, for filthy lucres sake'

He wasnt having a go at women this time but Cretians.

Even James writes 'let every man be swift to hear, and slow to speak, slow to wrath'
'If any man seem among you to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart this mans relgiion is in vain!

So its not just a problem with women talking too much.

 

[Magenta]

It is true God did make men first. Adam before Eve. In Gods order of things, men are meant to have the first turn. Interestingly, Adam abdicated his responsibility and let Eve sort of take over. God has not spoken to Eve the way God had instructed Adam. She heard things secondhand. She wasn't even around when God gave Adam the instructions... she was still in his rib!

We do not know whether Eve was told first hand or whether the info was passed along to her from Adam, or whether Adam added to what God said in passing along the commandment not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or if that was all on Eve. We are simply not told and should probably not assume either way...

when Paul writes about women keeping silence in churches...I imagine that he wants to men to step up and be the ones to take the lead, as the natural order of things. To say to the women, be quiet and allow the men to get a word in.

Those instructions were given to the church at Corinth. Learning what that church was like in those days would probably be helpful

 

[TLC209]

Respectfully, no it doesn't. 1 Timothy 3 outlines the qualifications for elders, not pastors. Scripture does not list any qualifications for pastors. The modern church has conflated the terms.

Yes it does read it first next time you reply. It outlines the requirements for bishop and deacon. 1 Peter 5 outlines about elders.

 

[Dino246]

Yes it does read it first next time you reply. It outlines the requirements for bishop and deacon. 1 Peter 5 outlines about elders.

I've read it many times. 1 Peter mentions shepherding, and so it's certainly reasonable to read it as outlining the requirements for a pastor. However, the word "pastor" is not there.

The word "pastor" is not in the requirements listed in 1 Timothy or Titus either. In fact the word only appears in Ephesians 4:11.

 

[TLC209]

The thing is, there are many women that are the head of a broken home due to the father not being present, or perhaps present but abusive and unfaithful. I really don't see how man is superior to women in regards of positions of leadership. If the man was truly qualified in all aspects than why isn't he the head of the home where his ex wife or separated wife and children live?

I understand what your saying. But maybe you misunderstand my point. Just because you are a man doesnt mean you can be the pastoral role of the church. You made it very clear why. If he cant manage his own home or wife/ex wife then how can he expect to manage Gods elect? He cant and he wont, hes unqualified. Thats why if a man desires the role of bishop/deacon thats a honorable thing, but he must first meet the qualifications. The woman doesnt even fit the job description. The position is for a man of one wife.

Man is the head of women. Simple and plain. Jesus is the head of the church. But yet we are all equal with Christ as joint heirs. He calls us brothers. But submission to Christ is expected. Even if He calls us brothers sisters mothers. He is still the head. Same as us, just because the pastor has position of authority I still see him as an equal. But I must respect his leadership role. We are equal he just plays a different role. And that goes for all of the church body we all have a purpose. Its just doing things in the right order how God wants us to do things.

As parents do we listen to our children? And as young men do we tell the older guys what to do? How about women do you tell a grown man what to do? So on and so fourth. This generation has lost a sense of respect for authority within the community. I see alot of disregard for just simple common courtesy.

I had an older woman tell me "chivalry isnt dead" just for holding the door open for her. I feel like older people deserve respect and should go first in most situations. And that is the way it should be but its not. Who is teaching the youth? It sure isnt Christian churches. The world is going down the tubes and its gonna be hard to find a decent pastor in the next generation if things continue this way.

 

[Dino246]

Man is the head of women.

That is not correct. Paul wrote the following in 1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

It says, "the woman" (singular) not "women" (plural). It's an important distinction.

 

[TLC209]

That is not correct. Paul wrote the following in 1 Corinthians 11:3

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

It says, "the woman" (singular) not "women" (plural). It's an important distinction.

Youre something else. Your like that annoying kid that sits in the front row with his hand raised every chance he wants to add his 2 cents. Heres a nickle go buy yourself some gum to chew on..

 

[seoulsearch]

Youre something else. Your like that annoying kid that sits in the front row with his hand raised every chance he wants to add his 2 cents. Heres a nickle go buy yourself some gum to chew on..

As interesting as I find these exchanges... You might want to buckle up, make sure you're strapped in, and prepare yourself... Lol.

Keep your arms, hands, legs, and feet inside the vehicle at all times.

Dino is a long-time, fiercely knowledgeable, and highly respected member here who won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[kaylagrl]

My reading of scripture and the comments Paul made about women lead me to think that many women in his time and sitting in congregations were quite vociferous and 'bolshy'. Some of them might have been like the nagging wife in Proverbs who is a continually dripping and causing men to run away.

For example Martha. MArtha complains to Jesus why isnt Mary helping me? but Jesus just says Martha you are cumbered about with many things...Mary has chosen the better part and it shall not be taken away from her.

Where was Mary? Sitting At Jesus feet, listening.

It is true God did make men first. Adam before Eve. In Gods order of things, men are meant to have the first turn. Interestingly, Adam abdicated his responssibility and let Eve sort of take over. GOd has not spoken to Eve the way God had instructed Adam. She heard things secondhand. She wasnt even around when God gave Adam the instructions..she was still in his rib!

What about Jesus twelve disciples, all men. The disciples didnt stay at the cross like the women did, and werent the first at the resurrection. They ran away, even Peter denied Jesus...after declaring that he would stay by his side forever! So the women got to be the first witnesses. They werent quite believed but if the men had stayed like the women did they would have been first too. The male disicples actually ran to see who could get there first. (Typical men?)

So when Paul writes about women keeping silence in churches...I imagine that he wants to men to step up and be the ones to take the lead, as the natural order of things. To say to the women, be quiet and allow the men to get a word in.

Now what does this mean in terms of our culture. And for us women? I think it means to respect men in their capacity to lead...In many cases in the Bible the firstborns are always male. But this is not true of many of us. My eldest sibling is my sister. My mother was the first of eight siblings, and the first five were daughters before any sons. Nobody is ever going to say to us women shut up and dont get an education. Why because we are it. Its all on us. Men can be quite intimidated at how much a woman knows. This is why sometimes its smart to just play dumb. Let the men go first. They are thicker and can shield us from the bullets. Perhaps.

I think of those girls carrying water to and fro. Come on where are the boys. Why are the girls doing all the hard work. I had a boss that got me to mow all the lawns in this job I had once and I was going deaf from all the noise. Well one day I was mowing lawns with my earmuffs on and couldnt hear this rattling noise that the others could hear which was the meaning the lawnmower was about to blow up.
Thankfully they heard it before and stopped the machine before any disaster.

The moral of this story..well actually its nothing to do with men and women really, its just its way too noisy that I couldnt hear anything. Same thing in church. Why not do as quakers do and not even speak at all.

Let God have the first say.

letter Titus was equal oppoturnity for Paul to write 'there are many vain talkers and deceivers, specially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses teaching things they ought not, for filthy lucres sake'

He wasnt having a go at women this time but Cretians.

Even James writes 'let every man be swift to hear, and slow to speak, slow to wrath'
'If any man seem among you to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart this mans relgiion is in vain!

So its not just a problem with women talking too much.

I think you hit on the issue. I sang at a SA in downtown Toronto. The people that attended the service were pimps, prostitutes rug addicts,unchurched people. They talked out loud, the got up and down during the service. At the alter call they didn't kneel they sat facing the crowd, not sure what to do next. A churified crowd wouldn't act like that, but these people didn't know. In that situation it didn't matter, as long as they were being ministered too. But if they went into a church situation it wouldn't be appropriate. And that is what happened with these women. They had a new found freedom,which was great, but they didn't know how to use it. So Paul was trying to bring order to the situation. People have twisted it to mean something it didn't. Simple.

 

[kaylagrl]

As interesting as I find these exchanges... You might want to prepare yourself... Lol.

Dino is a long-time, fiercely knowledgeable, and highly respected member here who won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

Very few times I've disagreed with Dino, I don't know if I ever have. Either way he's usually measured in what he says, thoughtful and yes I think respected by all. Now I expect a "winner" for that brother. Seriously, one of the members I respect here.

 

[TLC209]

As interesting as I find these exchanges... You might want to buckle up, make sure you're strapped in, and prepare yourself... Lol.

Keep your arms, hands, legs, and feet inside the vehicle at all times.

Dino is a long-time, fiercely knowledgeable, and highly respected member here who won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

Dino is ok. Ive seen him on alot of threads. I just dont agree with his approach.

He can correct me is fine with me, I love to learn. But dont slam me down like a ragdoll with verbals. Especially when the context doesnt hold any weight. I can carry my own.

Pack a lunch.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It says, "the woman" (singular) not "women" (plural). It's an important distinction.

And that is only because within the home the husband is the head (authority over) the wife, and wives are to be in submission or subjection to THEIR OWN husbands according to the Lord.

That does not in any way nullify God's pattern for men and women within the assembly. The instructions are quite clear, and if people chose to ignore them or disobey them, then they will give account.

The Bible DOES NOT permit women to (a) preach, (b) teach, or (c) take authority as a pastor or elder within the local church. Indeed women are commanded to be silent during worship.

However, older or mature Christian women are encouraged to teach the younger women what their responsibilities are within the home.

 

[oyster67]

The people that attended the service were pimps, prostitutes rug addicts,unchurched people.

I use to be a rug addict once, until I almost choked to death on one

Sorry, just trying to break the tension.

 

[kaylagrl]

I use to be a rug addict once, until I almost choked to death on one

Sorry, just trying to break the tension.

Lol don't sweat it, this subject always gets heated. Nothing new here.