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The tribulation that Jesus said believer's would have = Persecution at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background
The wrath of God: Prophesied by the OT prophets and the apostles, which will be an unprecedented time when God decimates the population of the earth and dismantles all human government via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this time, believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, as Jesus rescued us from it and Jesus said that he would keep us from it.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thes.1:10)
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
I have been in Christ for over 40 years, I am certain that it is the Spirit of God who teaches me. Have you ever considered that this
information just hasn't been revealed to you yet, instead of discrediting me?
The wrath of God: Prophesied by the OT prophets and the apostles, which will be an unprecedented time when God decimates the population of the earth and dismantles all human government via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding this time, believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, as Jesus rescued us from it and Jesus said that he would keep us from it.
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thes.1:10)
"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
I have been in Christ for over 40 years, I am certain that it is the Spirit of God who teaches me. Have you ever considered that this
information just hasn't been revealed to you yet, instead of discrediting me?
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How about you not discreating every one who disagrees with you.
I have studied this for 35 years and I am certain the the Spirit of God teaches me.
The fact that you disagree with me is not the issue I have with you.
It is the attitude that comes across in your post. i.e. " I am smart, your are dumb, I am lead by the Spirit, you are not"
I have studied this for 35 years and I am certain the the Spirit of God teaches me.
The fact that you disagree with me is not the issue I have with you.
It is the attitude that comes across in your post. i.e. " I am smart, your are dumb, I am lead by the Spirit, you are not"
There is no teaching of Christ returning before the Invasion of Israel (Great Tribulation) by the Little Horn, AKA King of the North, AKA Man of Sin, AKA Son of Perdition, AKA AntiChrist (although this name is least accurate). Satan is behind the Great Tribulation of Israel as Rev 12 & 13 teaches. God is absolutely NOT behind the Great Tribulation and any such teaching is folly. Satan inspires the "Beast of the Sea (unruly people)" to attack God's People (Jews and Christian) as well as fellow Muslims who will not support them.
Again, the "Beast" is the Islamic Northern Army. This army will be comprised of 10 leaders (Horns) who do not have a kingdom as of yet. These leaders are most likely leaders of terror organizations like ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, etc. When the Man of Sin is revealed he will lead this Northern Islamic army and will force everyone, (Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc) within its realm to swear allegiance to it or they will be killed. Everyone will be forced to wear the badge (mark of the beast) on their forehead (head band) or on their right wrist (hand) or they will not be able to buy or sell.
This alliance of 10 terror groups will attack Saudi Arabia and the moderate Arab Gulf States. They will possess chemical and biological weapons. They acquire at least one nuclear weapon which they use to nuke Mecca. They turn on their faith ISLAM and they utter destroy the peaceful teachings of Islam and replace it with a religion of hate and murder which we in America call, "radical Islam."
The radical Northern Islamic forces battle back and forth against the Southern Arab States. He will set up an Abomination in a holy place. This will be the sign for the The ELECT Jews, the 144K, to flee Judea. The flee to countries all over the world who will take them. The Northern Army then invades Israel with overwhelming force and Israel falls. At this time, the Man of Sin will unite the Muslim world as he will be seen as a hero for defeating Israel. He will mock God and claim to be above God, above Allah and above everyone called "god." He will honor a god of fortresses. He will be very rich. Any Christian or Jew living that he finds will be beheaded. He takes over 1/4 of the world. This is the 4th seal. He will prosper until God's Wrath is poured.
The "Church" in this part of the world (middle east, Asia and much of Europe) will be killed. This is the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches otherwise known as the Two Witnesses. This happens at the 4th trumpet. 1/3 of the Light of the World is dimmed. These saints are seen at the 5th seal.
Christ does not return until after all of the above occurs. When Christ returns, He comes back with those saints who were beheaded. They are part of the first resurrection as they are firstfruits to God and the Lamb. They live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. There will be 200 million of them and they make up the army of vengeance of the Lord. They are the army of Joel 2 and the 6th Trumpet of Rev 9. They retake Israel. When Christ returns He sends out His angels to first forcefully remove all the Muslim invaders and those Tares living in Israel. He then gathers back His Elect Jews, the 144K, to Israel.
The rest of the believers who have died throughout time will not return until after 1,000 years are over.
Again, the "Beast" is the Islamic Northern Army. This army will be comprised of 10 leaders (Horns) who do not have a kingdom as of yet. These leaders are most likely leaders of terror organizations like ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Hamas, etc. When the Man of Sin is revealed he will lead this Northern Islamic army and will force everyone, (Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc) within its realm to swear allegiance to it or they will be killed. Everyone will be forced to wear the badge (mark of the beast) on their forehead (head band) or on their right wrist (hand) or they will not be able to buy or sell.
This alliance of 10 terror groups will attack Saudi Arabia and the moderate Arab Gulf States. They will possess chemical and biological weapons. They acquire at least one nuclear weapon which they use to nuke Mecca. They turn on their faith ISLAM and they utter destroy the peaceful teachings of Islam and replace it with a religion of hate and murder which we in America call, "radical Islam."
The radical Northern Islamic forces battle back and forth against the Southern Arab States. He will set up an Abomination in a holy place. This will be the sign for the The ELECT Jews, the 144K, to flee Judea. The flee to countries all over the world who will take them. The Northern Army then invades Israel with overwhelming force and Israel falls. At this time, the Man of Sin will unite the Muslim world as he will be seen as a hero for defeating Israel. He will mock God and claim to be above God, above Allah and above everyone called "god." He will honor a god of fortresses. He will be very rich. Any Christian or Jew living that he finds will be beheaded. He takes over 1/4 of the world. This is the 4th seal. He will prosper until God's Wrath is poured.
The "Church" in this part of the world (middle east, Asia and much of Europe) will be killed. This is the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches otherwise known as the Two Witnesses. This happens at the 4th trumpet. 1/3 of the Light of the World is dimmed. These saints are seen at the 5th seal.
Christ does not return until after all of the above occurs. When Christ returns, He comes back with those saints who were beheaded. They are part of the first resurrection as they are firstfruits to God and the Lamb. They live and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. There will be 200 million of them and they make up the army of vengeance of the Lord. They are the army of Joel 2 and the 6th Trumpet of Rev 9. They retake Israel. When Christ returns He sends out His angels to first forcefully remove all the Muslim invaders and those Tares living in Israel. He then gathers back His Elect Jews, the 144K, to Israel.
The rest of the believers who have died throughout time will not return until after 1,000 years are over.
The general resurrection happens on the LAST DAY of old Planet Earth. Jesus teaches this at least 4 times in the Book of John (Chapters 6 and 11). The LAST DAY is not located before the Great Tribulation of Israel and the subsequent Wrath of God which is poured out against those who attacked Israel. There is no way that the resurrection can occur on the Last Day but be before the Great Tribulation of Israel as that would be in direct conflict with the Word of God.
Since the Rapture happens immediately after the Resurrection, it cannot happen before the Great Tribulation of Israel. Instead it happens after the Millennium when God the Father brings those who sleep in Jesus. This is the clear teaching of Paul in 1 Thes 4.
Since the Rapture happens immediately after the Resurrection, it cannot happen before the Great Tribulation of Israel. Instead it happens after the Millennium when God the Father brings those who sleep in Jesus. This is the clear teaching of Paul in 1 Thes 4.
Not to mention...1Thes.4 {your rapture scripture} actually takes place on the Day of the Lord
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -
ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Pretty simple
1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -
ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -
ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. Pretty simple
Is that a valid argument? Well... the word “church” is absent from all the well known rapture passages: 1Thess.4:13-17, 1Cor 15:50-54, and John 14:1-4. So if we follow your logic, we have the right to conclude that the church will not be raptured? Also the word “church” is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church?
So where is the LAST trumpet to be blown, found in the Word? The LAST TRUMPET that is found in 1Cor.15
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Rev.8 is long AFTER the tribulation period
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!
REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Rev.8 is long AFTER the tribulation period
REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible
Hello Wall,
First, just because there are seven trumpets judgments, does not mean that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" that Paul was speaking of. During the time that Israel was wandering through the desert and living in Israel, there were different types of trumpets, each with different meanings, such as to gather the people and to gather for war, etc. That said, the word "Trumpet" is not unique to the "Last trumpet." The seven trumpets of Revelation are judgments of wrath having no blessings attached to them. Furthermore, there is no mention of either the dead being resurrected nor the living being transformed in or around the context of the 7th trumpet. In fact, the 7th trumpet is the last of three woes, the 3rd woe being Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth for that last 3 1/2 years.
The sounding of the 7th trumpet is not the end of God's wrath, for after the blowing of the 7th trumpet comes seven bowl judgments, which are said to be last and that because with them God's wrath is completed. We also know that the 7th trumpet is not the end and that because when the angel pours out the 6th bowl judgment, Jesus interjects stating "Behold, I come like a thief" which demonstrates that by the 6th bowl He will have not yet returned. And by returned, I am speaking about his return to the earth to end the age and not his appearing to gather the church.
The mystery of God is that, after the 7th trumpet has been sounded, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, which is followed by the seven bowl judgments, which brings an end to God's wrath and the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age and regain ownership of the earth which went to Satan which Adam lost in the fall.
First, just because there are seven trumpets judgments, does not mean that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" that Paul was speaking of. During the time that Israel was wandering through the desert and living in Israel, there were different types of trumpets, each with different meanings, such as to gather the people and to gather for war, etc. That said, the word "Trumpet" is not unique to the "Last trumpet." The seven trumpets of Revelation are judgments of wrath having no blessings attached to them. Furthermore, there is no mention of either the dead being resurrected nor the living being transformed in or around the context of the 7th trumpet. In fact, the 7th trumpet is the last of three woes, the 3rd woe being Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth for that last 3 1/2 years.
The sounding of the 7th trumpet is not the end of God's wrath, for after the blowing of the 7th trumpet comes seven bowl judgments, which are said to be last and that because with them God's wrath is completed. We also know that the 7th trumpet is not the end and that because when the angel pours out the 6th bowl judgment, Jesus interjects stating "Behold, I come like a thief" which demonstrates that by the 6th bowl He will have not yet returned. And by returned, I am speaking about his return to the earth to end the age and not his appearing to gather the church.
The mystery of God is that, after the 7th trumpet has been sounded, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, which is followed by the seven bowl judgments, which brings an end to God's wrath and the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age and regain ownership of the earth which went to Satan which Adam lost in the fall.
To gather the people?
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown. And here we are GATHERED in the twinkling of an eye.
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period and His people GATHERED. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15
1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The above scripture points out that “we shall all be changed” as the LAST TRUMPET is blown. And here we are GATHERED in the twinkling of an eye.
MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period and His people GATHERED. No matter how ya figure it, you cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15
Hello Wall,
The word "Church" is used interchangeably throughout the books of the NT. Here in the book of Revelation, God has made a distinction between "Church" and "Saints." This information is contained in Revelation and therefore you cannot compare it to words missing in other writings. The book of Revelation is filled with clues and hints that are interwoven through this book. The use of the word "Church" and the absence of the word "Saints" throughout chapters 1 thru 3, as well as the absence of the word "Church" and the use of the word "Saints" from chapter 4 onward, is one of those clues.
With your example above you are just being ridiculous and that because the information regarding 1Thes.4:13-18 is being addressed to the church in Thessalonica. Therefore, in the verse where it states "we who are left and still alive will be changed" Paul is speaking of those whom the letter is addressed to which were the Thessalonians, as well as to all believer's throughout the entire church period.
The constant use of the word "church" throughout Rev.1 thru 3 and then its abrupt disuse from Rev.4 onward, should be an obvious indication to any serious studier of the book of Revelation. It is meant to alert the reader that the church is no longer on the earth to take part in the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Now, if the word church and saints was used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, I would not and could not make this claim. But because of the distinctive use of both words, as well as the introduction of the great tribulation saints in chapter 7, I see that these are two different groups. The church will be removed and those who will become believer's after that event are known as those saints who come out of the great tribulation.
Since John was told previously to write letters to the seven churches, it would make no sense for the elder to introduce this group if they were in fact the church. That coupled with the fact that the elder asked John who they were and John not knowing, should also tell the reader that this group was not the church. There are plenty of places from chapter 4 onward where the word "Church" could be used in place of the word "Saints" but we never see it. The church period will have ended at chapter 4 and those referred to from then on are those saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which are never referred to as the church.
The word "Church" is used interchangeably throughout the books of the NT. Here in the book of Revelation, God has made a distinction between "Church" and "Saints." This information is contained in Revelation and therefore you cannot compare it to words missing in other writings. The book of Revelation is filled with clues and hints that are interwoven through this book. The use of the word "Church" and the absence of the word "Saints" throughout chapters 1 thru 3, as well as the absence of the word "Church" and the use of the word "Saints" from chapter 4 onward, is one of those clues.
With your example above you are just being ridiculous and that because the information regarding 1Thes.4:13-18 is being addressed to the church in Thessalonica. Therefore, in the verse where it states "we who are left and still alive will be changed" Paul is speaking of those whom the letter is addressed to which were the Thessalonians, as well as to all believer's throughout the entire church period.
The constant use of the word "church" throughout Rev.1 thru 3 and then its abrupt disuse from Rev.4 onward, should be an obvious indication to any serious studier of the book of Revelation. It is meant to alert the reader that the church is no longer on the earth to take part in the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Now, if the word church and saints was used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, I would not and could not make this claim. But because of the distinctive use of both words, as well as the introduction of the great tribulation saints in chapter 7, I see that these are two different groups. The church will be removed and those who will become believer's after that event are known as those saints who come out of the great tribulation.
Since John was told previously to write letters to the seven churches, it would make no sense for the elder to introduce this group if they were in fact the church. That coupled with the fact that the elder asked John who they were and John not knowing, should also tell the reader that this group was not the church. There are plenty of places from chapter 4 onward where the word "Church" could be used in place of the word "Saints" but we never see it. The church period will have ended at chapter 4 and those referred to from then on are those saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which are never referred to as the church.
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As I said, there are many types of trumpets. The point is, you are not taking into consideration what the term "last trumpet" refers to. There are other trumpets after that of different types, with different meanings. You are looking at it as if any trumpet mentioned is the last trumpet. Notice in the verse above, that one is called the "last trumpet" and the other is "a great sound of a trumpet." If the church was to be gathered in Mt.24:30-31, this would put the living church through the entire wrath of God and we are already told in other scriptures that Jesus has rescued us from the coming wrath and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Therefore, when coming to a conclusion regarding this issue, you must take all scriptures into consideration. That fact believer's are not appointed to suffer God's wrath would then have to be something to consider in regards to when the church is gathered. Regarding this, since Mt.24:30-31 is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which takes place after the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have been poured out, then this cannot be where the church is gathered.
Mt.24:29-31 is not the resurrection and catching away of the church. That trumpet call with which the Lord sends out his angels with, is not the same trumpet as that "Last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:51, but a different trumpet. Also, those whom the angels are gathering are people who will have made it through that period of God's wrath and the beasts reign who will still be in their mortal bodies. This event is not the gathering of the church. When the Lord appears and the church is gathered, according to the scripture, angels are not sent out to gather us, but the dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Angels do not gather the church.
The gathering that is spoken of by the angels in Mt.24:31 is synonymous with the parable in Mt.13 regarding the end of the age when the angels as the harvester's, will first collect the wicked who are represented as the "weeds" in the parable, where they will bring them to Armageddon, where they will be killed by that double-edged sword. Then the angels will gather the wheat, which are those living great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath. Mt.24:29-31 has to do with the end of the age, where the gathering of the church is a separate event which takes place prior to God's wrath. If fact, according to Rev.19:14, the church will be with the Lord and the angels when he returns to the earth in Mt.24:30-31to end the age. For we are one's seen riding on those white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean.
Mt.24:29-31 is not the resurrection and catching away of the church. That trumpet call with which the Lord sends out his angels with, is not the same trumpet as that "Last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:51, but a different trumpet. Also, those whom the angels are gathering are people who will have made it through that period of God's wrath and the beasts reign who will still be in their mortal bodies. This event is not the gathering of the church. When the Lord appears and the church is gathered, according to the scripture, angels are not sent out to gather us, but the dead in Christ rise first and then the living are changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Angels do not gather the church.
The gathering that is spoken of by the angels in Mt.24:31 is synonymous with the parable in Mt.13 regarding the end of the age when the angels as the harvester's, will first collect the wicked who are represented as the "weeds" in the parable, where they will bring them to Armageddon, where they will be killed by that double-edged sword. Then the angels will gather the wheat, which are those living great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath. Mt.24:29-31 has to do with the end of the age, where the gathering of the church is a separate event which takes place prior to God's wrath. If fact, according to Rev.19:14, the church will be with the Lord and the angels when he returns to the earth in Mt.24:30-31to end the age. For we are one's seen riding on those white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean.
So who are these Saints which are of His church?
1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Just because you dont find the words "saints" and "church" together in the book of Revelation does not mean God made a distinction between the two. Yikes!
1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Just because you dont find the words "saints" and "church" together in the book of Revelation does not mean God made a distinction between the two. Yikes!
This trumpet
"For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed"
Is not the same as this trumpet
"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
This resurrection
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Is not the same as this resurrection:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years
"For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed"
Is not the same as this trumpet
"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
This resurrection
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
Is not the same as this resurrection:
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years
Yes, it absolutely does! It is because of two things, 1). because the words are never used together in Revelation and 2). because of the constant use of the word "church" and then its abrupt disuse from Rev.4 onward. And the fact that there is another group introduced as the great tribulation saints, which is not the church. The church cannot go through God's wrath, which are the main events of the book from Rev.4 onward. Whatever you read, always remember that the church cannot go through God's wrath. From right now until the time when Christ returns to end the age, the wrath of God will take place in between those two points. Since the church is not appointed to suffer wrath, we cannot go through it and that because of God's promise.
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