If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

[Persuaded]

I don't need a false teaching from you! Everything that you list is just circumvention of the truth. I know what the word of God says and what the Spirit confirms. You keep saying that no where is it written that the church is going to heaven and I keep presenting the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, but you continue to ignore it, which is typical. The reason that you believe and teach what you do is because you don't understand the severity and magnitude of the coming wrath. Neither do you understand what it means that we are not appointed to suffer wrath and that because Jesus rescued us from that coming wrath.

The Lord is not going to build his church and then sent it through his wrath. Go and look through Zephaniah, Isaiah and Revelation and see who God is going to be pouring his wrath out upon. It certainly is not the church who will have already repented and of whom there is now no condemnation.

If you understood the severity of the coming wrath, you would know that there will be no place that will be safe from God's wrath and the events of the beast and the false prophet because they will affect the entire earth. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, ergo, the church cannot be on the earth during his time of wrath. Below are the people whom God's wrath is going to be poured out upon:

=========================================
"I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the
haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more
rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from
its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger."

"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of
the earth, declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth"

The above is going to be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. When these things begin to happen, then remember these postings. But hopefully the Lord will open your eyes before that happens so that you can repent and be prepared when the bridegroom comes for his bride.

I usually ignore arrogant, know it all, self rightious people, but with you I will make an exception.
You do not even know the difference between tribulation and wrath.
You think that God would never allow you to suffer tribulation, while Christians are suffering every day.
After all, you live in America, a "Christian" nation. You are more Holy than those in the rest of the world.
Thousands have been killed in the Middle East.
Many were killed in the earthquake in Ecuador this week.
Millions of Christians have suffered tribulation and death down through history.
Don't tell them that God will allow them to escape and not have to suffer.
You accuse others of being false teaachers and/or not understanding the Scripture while showing your own lack of understanding and teaching false doctrine.
I pray that you will not do as Peter did when Jesus was arrested when the man of sin turns his anger on the Saints after he drives Israel into the wilderness.

And by the way, the Scripture clearly teaches that the seals and trumpets are tribulation. Wrath only comes after the seventh trump coming of Jesus and our gathering together with Him. Then God will pour out the seven bowls of His wrath.

 

[Yet]

The Falling away comes at the same time as the Appearance of the Man of Lawlessness.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the Day Christ Returns) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Notice that the Falling away and Man of Sin being revealed are linked. The Man of Sin causes the Falling Away (by his deception). Therefore the "Falling Away" isn't a gradual decline of the church. While the church may becoming more and more apostate the event described above is much more than this. It is tied to the Great Tribulation of Israel.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.

Sadly, the non-elect Christians are deceived along with all the Muslims. The Man of Sin wipes out the Church by his deception. The Man of Sin gets much of the church to believe that Christ comes first so when the Man of Sin comes, many Christians will think he is Christ.

The ELECT cannot be deceived. The ELECT understand the deception game of the Lawless One and that he is already at work convincing people that Christ comes first to take them away.

I believe that the falling away is a gradual apostasy from God's commands and order of His assembly. Paul warned that after his passing wolves would rise UP and solidify the false cleric system, dismantling the body of Christ into impotency. History bears this out. The dis-functionality of the ecclesia is what we have. The paid professional leader with the paying audience.

As far as tribulation goes. We've suffered plenty of 'hell' ever since we got saved. Does that tribulation count for anything? I think it does. Been no picnic, trust me. We are worn out but He continues to strengthen us.

 

[Persuaded]

For those who believe the Saints will not suffer tribulation, explain to me why we are more worthy than these innocent children.

 

[Ahwatukee]

For those who believe the Saints will not suffer tribulation, explain to me why we are more worthy than these innocent children. View attachment 148263

Very simply, as terrible as this is, these children are not suffering from the wrath of God. Throughout these posts, I have attempted to demonstrate from scripture, the difference between common trial and tribulation vs. the coming wrath of God, which many seem to not comprehend. The wrath of God, also known as the day of the Lord and the hour of trial, will be a specific time period, namely that last seven years, when God will complete the seventy sevens that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, as well as the dismantling of the all human government as represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statue found in Dan.2:31-45. Until that time, the world is going to suffer these types of tragedies and believer's will continue to suffer trials and tribulation because we belong to Christ. Once the wrath of God begins via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, these troubles that the world sees today will pale greatly in comparison to the destruction that God is going to inflict upon this earth.

People have used the same argument saying, "why should the apostles and the first century church suffer by being thrown to the lions, being skinned alive, boiled in oil, crucified, but the church in last days will not. The answer again is that, they were not suffering from the wrath of God, but from the common trials and tribulations that come from having faith in Jesus Christ. What is coming is wrath directly from the Lord in the form of seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments and Jesus is the One who will be initiating them. Since the believer's are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God and that because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, the church will be removed prior to God's wrath being poured out.

The wrath that is coming is not going to be some passive events that can take place in the background of history without anyone noticing. On the contrary, they are meant to be noticed and to have an affect, namely the decimation of the population of the earth. As an example, there are only two places within Revelation that give a percentage of the fatalities as a result of the seals and the trumpet judgments. The result of the first four seals results in a fourth of the earths population being killed. Likewise, the sounding of the 6th trumpet, will result in a third of the earth's population being killed. Based on the current population of 7 billion people, a fourth and a third would come to 4.5 billion fatalities. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3 or the seven bowl seven bowl judgments. So, with these figures you can see why Jesus said that if those days had not been shortened no one would be left alive on the earth.

Therefore, keep in mind the difference between common trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background vs. God's coming wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe that the falling away is a gradual apostasy from God's commands and order of His assembly. Paul warned that after his passing wolves would rise UP and solidify the false cleric system, dismantling the body of Christ into impotency. History bears this out. The dis-functionality of the ecclesia is what we have. The paid professional leader with the paying audience.

As far as tribulation goes. We've suffered plenty of 'hell' ever since we got saved. Does that tribulation count for anything? I think it does. Been no picnic, trust me. We are worn out but He continues to strengthen us.

I agree Yet! I believe that we have been experiencing the apostasy (Properly - a leaving, from a previous standing) as we continue to witness the departure from the truth of God's word which I believe is in relation to what Paul wrote to Timothy as well:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."


I believe the proper application today regarding those "great number of teachers" are websites, seminars, books written by false teachers, you tube, hear-say and the like. These are where many are getting their information from. And as I am sure that you know, as we continue to approach that time of wrath and the revealing of that antichrist, it is going to continue to get much worse. Once the church is removed, look out!

 

[Wall]

And as I am sure that you know, as we continue to approach that time of wrath and the revealing of that antichrist, it is going to continue to get much worse. Once the church is removed, look out!

Speakin of the anti-christ....

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Ahwatukee you claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast


REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

 

[PlainWord]

I believe that the falling away is a gradual apostasy from God's commands and order of His assembly. Paul warned that after his passing wolves would rise UP and solidify the false cleric system, dismantling the body of Christ into impotency. History bears this out. The dis-functionality of the ecclesia is what we have. The paid professional leader with the paying audience.

As far as tribulation goes. We've suffered plenty of 'hell' ever since we got saved. Does that tribulation count for anything? I think it does. Been no picnic, trust me. We are worn out but He continues to strengthen us.

As I said, many think the falling away is a gradual spiritual decline of the church. I see it as a dramatic slaughtering of the church where 1/3 of all Christians on the planet are killed. There is plenty of evidence of a major Church death event, especially in Revelation.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

We are the Light of the Earth

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There is no doubt that the Great Multitude are killed and logic would suggest over a short period of time.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

The 2 churches are the 2 witnesses on earth.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

Then if you look in Daniel 7 you see the same thing.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [SUP]22 [/SUP]until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.


We see here that the Church is under attack all the way until the Lord returns. So there is plenty of evidence of a major death event for the church and it is tied to the Little Horn, AKA Son of Perdition/Man of Sin. Therefore I see the "Falling Away" as a literal mass death event of the church.

 

[PlainWord]

I agree Yet! I believe that we have been experiencing the apostasy (Properly - a leaving, from a previous standing) as we continue to witness the departure from the truth of God's word which I believe is in relation to what Paul wrote to Timothy as well:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."


I believe the proper application today regarding those "great number of teachers" are websites, seminars, books written by false teachers, you tube, hear-say and the like. These are where many are getting their information from. And as I am sure that you know, as we continue to approach that time of wrath and the revealing of that antichrist, it is going to continue to get much worse. Once the church is removed, look out!

First comes the Abomination of Desolation, then the Great Tribulation (attack on Israel), then comes the Lawless One (AntiChrist) then comes God's Wrath.

Follow the sequence from Mat 24. Jesus was very precise. After all He is God!

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Wall]

Speakin of the anti-christ....

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Ahwatukee you claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast


REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

So tell me Ahwatukee, are you wrong or is scripture wrong?

 

[trofimus]

If you aren’t going up in the rapture, are you ready to be interrogated?

Christians are being interrogated and tortured through all of the christian history.

It does not relate to rapture. Dont think that because you have the freedom of religion in the USA, it is something granted for certain. Its a gift, not a right.

Only few decades ago christians were tortured in Europe under the communist party and today they are interrogated and tortured in many other countries, mainly in Africa, China, muslim countries etc.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Christians are being interrogated and tortured through all of the christian history.

It does not relate to rapture. Dont think that because you have the freedom of religion in the USA, it is something granted for certain. Its a gift, not a right.

Only few decades ago christians were tortured in Europe under the communist party and today they are interrogated and tortured in many other countries, mainly in Africa, China, muslim countries etc.

Hello trofimus,

What you are speaking about above are believer's suffering via common trial and tribulation that Jesus said believer's would experience for his name sake and the word of God. In opposition, what is coming is the unprecedented time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which will decimate the majority of the earth's population and dismantle all human government. Scripture states that believer's are not appointed to suffer this coming time of God's wrath and that because Jesus rescued us from it by taking God's wrath upon himself. That said, the church will be removed prior to this time of wrath according to His promise's found in John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.1:10, 4:13-18, 5:9 and Rev.3:10.

It is simply understanding the nature of the coming wrath of God and distinguishing it from the common trials and persecutions that believer's suffer as a result of their faith. In short, we as believer's are appointed to suffer trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of the world. In opposition, believer's are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and therefore, all true believer's in Christ will be removed from the earth prior to the beginning of God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Wall,

Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast


REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In regard to the above, this group that is seen as beheaded is that same group that was introduced in Rev.7:9-17 referred to as the great tribulation saints. This is not the church, but are those who will have become believer's in Christ after the church has been removed. If you will notice, from Rev.4 onward, you will never see the word "Church" used to describe this group, but they are always referred to as "Saints" and never as the church.

If you will notice, this group shown to be resurrected here in Rev.20:4-6, which only describes a resurrection with no mention of the living being changed and caught up as described in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53. That said, though they both belong to the first resurrection, the resurrection of Rev.20:4-6 is a different resurrection from 1 Cor.15:51-53. The resurrection and catching of the dead and the changing of the living believer's is in reference to the church. Where Rev.20:4-6 is in reference to the great tribulation saints.

By attempting to make those resurrected at Rev.20:4-6 as being the church, you would then have to answer the question of who those armies are riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14? There plenty of scripture demonstrating that it is the church/bride that are those on white horses, which demonstrates that the church would have to already be in heaven in order to follow Christ out of heaven and that they've already received their fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Those who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints, which is a different group who will be present during the time of the beasts reign. It is significant that you will not find the word "church" anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath from Rev.4 onward

 

[Ahwatukee]

So tell me Ahwatukee, are you wrong or is scripture wrong?

Neither! You are wrong in that you have not recognized the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints. You are taking scripture that is regarding the great tribulation saints and misapplying it to the church and that is the problem.

 

[Persuaded]

Hello trofimus,

What you are speaking about above are believer's suffering via common trial and tribulation that Jesus said believer's would experience for his name sake and the word of God. In opposition, what is coming is the unprecedented time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which will decimate the majority of the earth's population and dismantle all human government. Scripture states that believer's are not appointed to suffer this coming time of God's wrath and that because Jesus rescued us from it by taking God's wrath upon himself. That said, the church will be removed prior to this time of wrath according to His promise's found in John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.1:10, 4:13-18, 5:9 and Rev.3:10.

It is simply understanding the nature of the coming wrath of God and distinguishing it from the common trials and persecutions that believer's suffer as a result of their faith. In short, we as believer's are appointed to suffer trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of the world. In opposition, believer's are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and therefore, all true believer's in Christ will be removed from the earth prior to the beginning of God's wrath.

Matthew 24:21

The word "tribulation" is defined as ---preasure, affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution, trouble.

I Thessalonians 1:10

The word "wrath" is defined---violent passion, by implication punishment, anger, indignation, vengeance.

The day you learn the difference in tribulation and wrath is the day you will understand that the seals and trumpets are "tribulation" and God's " wrath" does not come until the seven vials which are not present until AFTER the seventh trump sounds.

Even a simple country preacher from Arkansas can see the difference.

 

[trofimus]

Hello trofimus,

What you are speaking about above are believer's suffering via common trial and tribulation that Jesus said believer's would experience for his name sake and the word of God. In opposition, what is coming is the unprecedented time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which will decimate the majority of the earth's population and dismantle all human government. Scripture states that believer's are not appointed to suffer this coming time of God's wrath and that because Jesus rescued us from it by taking God's wrath upon himself. That said, the church will be removed prior to this time of wrath according to His promise's found in John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.1:10, 4:13-18, 5:9 and Rev.3:10.

It is simply understanding the nature of the coming wrath of God and distinguishing it from the common trials and persecutions that believer's suffer as a result of their faith. In short, we as believer's are appointed to suffer trial and tribulation which comes at the hands of the world. In opposition, believer's are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and therefore, all true believer's in Christ will be removed from the earth prior to the beginning of God's wrath.

I understand your theological view (I hold another one, though), but I cant see difference between a christian tortured and killed in Poland by communist police and a christian tortured and killed by some "antichrist police". What is the difference in your preparation or defense?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Speakin of the anti-christ....

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

Ahwatukee you claim that at the 1Cor15 event {that they call the rapture} they are changed, meet the Lord in the air and its of to heaven. They also claim this happens BEFORE the tribulation period. Problem is, the beast appears during the tribulation and those who are in this resurrection {1Cor15} will have confronted the beast


REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to this resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in this resurrection had confronted the “beast” youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period.

Hello again Wall,

I hope that the Lord will give you understanding regarding the following:

========================================

"After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands"

"Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?” “Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

==========================================

In Chapters 2 & 3 of Revelation, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Now here in chapter 7, the reader is introduced to a large number of white robed saints which no man can count. The elder then asks John who they are and John replies that he doesn't know. The very fact that John was told to write to the seven churches and then we are introduced to this group, demonstrates that they are not the church. And the fact that when the elder asks John who they are and he doesn't know, also demonstrates that they are not the church. The elder then answers his own question and tells John that these in white robes are those who have come out of the great tribulation, ergo, great tribulation saints. In addition to all of this and as I said in other posts, you will not find the word "church" anywhere from chapter 4 on ward. In contrast, the word church is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, but you will never see the word "saints" within those same chapters.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Wall,



In regard to the above, this group that is seen as beheaded is that same group that was introduced in Rev.7:9-17 referred to as the great tribulation saints. This is not the church, but are those who will have become believer's in Christ after the church has been removed. If you will notice, from Rev.4 onward, you will never see the word "Church" used to describe this group, but they are always referred to as "Saints" and never as the church.

If you will notice, this group shown to be resurrected here in Rev.20:4-6, which only describes a resurrection with no mention of the living being changed and caught up as described in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53. That said, though they both belong to the first resurrection, the resurrection of Rev.20:4-6 is a different resurrection from 1 Cor.15:51-53. The resurrection and catching of the dead and the changing of the living believer's is in reference to the church. Where Rev.20:4-6 is in reference to the great tribulation saints.

By attempting to make those resurrected at Rev.20:4-6 as being the church, you would then have to answer the question of who those armies are riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14? There plenty of scripture demonstrating that it is the church/bride that are those on white horses, which demonstrates that the church would have to already be in heaven in order to follow Christ out of heaven and that they've already received their fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Those who are resurrected in Rev.20:4-6 are the great tribulation saints, which is a different group who will be present during the time of the beasts reign. It is significant that you will not find the word "church" anywhere in the narrative of God's wrath from Rev.4 onward

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 = The resurrection of the Church, dead and living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Revelation 20:4-6 = The resurrection of the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Note: there is only a resurrection mentioned here, as there is nothing mentioned about the living being changed and caught up and that because they are two different events and two different groups.

The two events above both belong to the first resurrection, as does the Lord's resurrection, he being the first fruits, the Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 and the two witnesses. These resurrections all belong to the first resurrection.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I understand your theological view (I hold another one, though), but I cant see difference between a christian tortured and killed in Poland by communist police and a christian tortured and killed by some "antichrist police". What is the difference in your preparation or defense?

Hi trofimus,

The issue here is the timing of when the Lord comes to gather the church, basically prior to God's wrath or after. The difference is that, Christian's who are being tortured and killed is being done so at the hands of men. In opposition, during the time of the antichrist, God's wrath will be poured out concurrently through that entire seven years via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. People during that time will be killed by God's direct wrath, which is what the individual believer as being apart of the church is not appointed to suffer. My point being that, during the time of the persecution of the antichrist and all that the false prophet will be performing, God's wrath will be taking place during that same time period. Those who are currently being killed in Poland by communist police are not suffering the wrath of God, but common trial and persecution for their faith. Those who will be tortured and killed by antichrists' police would be here during the time of God's wrath and that is the difference. For scripture states that the believer in Christ is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it for us.

 

[Persuaded]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 = The resurrection of the Church, dead and living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

Revelation 20:4-6 = The resurrection of the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. Note: there is only a resurrection mentioned here, as there is nothing mentioned about the living being changed and caught up and that because they are two different events and two different groups.

The two events above both belong to the first resurrection, as does the Lord's resurrection, he being the first fruits, the Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 and the two witnesses. These resurrections all belong to the first resurrection.

Thats a lot of speculation and opinion in those last two paragraphs on your part
You can not prove any of that with Scripture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thats a lot of speculation and opinion in those last two paragraphs on your part
You can not prove any of that with Scripture.

There is no speculation to it. These are the deeper truths given by the Spirit. I also demonstrated from scripture that there are more than one resurrection that falls under the banner of "first resurrection." These are the breadcrumbs, God's hints within his word that the Spirit reveals to those searching out his word. what part are you not understanding? I have shown you from scripture that the resurrection in Rev.20:4-6 only lists a resurrection of the dead and there is no mention of the living being changed. I have also demonstrated from scripture that those on the white horses following Christ out of heaven, which takes place prior to the resurrection of Rev.20:4-6, is that of the church/bride. I have also demonstrated that in chapters 1 thru 3 the word church appears 19 times, but the word "saints" is never used in those chapters. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward only the word "Saints" is used, but you will never see the word "church."