Interesting insight (John 3v36) OSAS take note

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EleventhHour

Guest
Two different words are used for believe in John 3v36. Using the KJV and Strongs concordance below:

John 3v36 KJV 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Strongs: 3:36 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 the Son 5207 hath 2192 5719 everlasting 166 life 2222: and 1161 he that believeth not 544 5723 the Son 5207 shall 3700 0 not 3756 see 3700 5695 life 2222; but 235 the wrath 3709 of God 2316 abideth 3306 5719 on 1909 him 846.

- The first believeth is
Word: pisteuw
Pronounce: pist-yoo'-o
Strongs Number: G4100
Orig: from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):--believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with. G4102
Use: TDNT-6:174,849 Verb
Heb Strong: H6004 H8085
1) to have faith in, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
2) by implication, to commit or entrust, i.e. to entrust your spiritual well-being to Christ
2a) to make a commitment (to trust)
2b) to put in trust with or place confidence in

- The second believeth is
Word: apeiqew
Pronounce: ap-i-theh'-o
Strongs Number: G544
Orig: from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):--not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. G545
Use: TDNT-6:10,818 Verb
Heb Strong: H2308 H3808 H3808 H3985 H3988 H4603 H4775 H4784 H4843 H5637 H8280
1) not to allow one's self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with



There is a glaringly obvious reason why a different word is used. The first one is to put your faith in. The second one is to heed and obey what He says.
Believing is the act of being obedient to the Gospel.

So NO this is not about obedience after one is saved.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Believeth (in the "Believeth Not" sense) is the same word - Pisteuw. Here we have an example in verse 18 of the same chapter:

3:18 He that believeth 4100 5723 on 1519 him 846 is 2919 0 not 3756 condemned 2919 5743: but 1161 he that believeth 4100 5723 not 3361 is condemned 2919 5769 already 2235, because 3754 he hath 4100 0 not 3361 believed 4100 5758 in 1519 the name 3686 of the only begotten 3439 Son 5207 of God 2316.

See--> believeth not has a negative which does not change Pisteuw. They are both 4100. Therefore you need to give an account of the word APIQEW
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that does not comply with this belief is condemned already, because he does not comply with this belief in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that refuses this believe and isn't obedient to this belief is condemned already, because he refuses this believe and isn't obedient to the belief in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Hi Jackrosie, believe it or not MANY MANY OSAS believers think that obedience has NO BEARING on salvation (my caps here are not shouting but emphasis). Obedience instead is categorised as discipleship, or something we should aspire to. When confronting an OSAS believer with the following question below, you will see no end to the dodging, avoidance, dancing around the topic. Anything but to avoid answering what is plainly obvious to the CONSCIENCE. Below is the question:

Q: As a believer, are you free to continue in adultery and fornication without repentance, and still be saved on the day of judgement?

To which the most typical standard response is "A true believer won't do that anyway". But they have not answered the question. A Y/N answer is all that is needed. Yes or No.
Umm, you OP equates obedience to salvation when the fact that obedience is a result of salvation and you are wrong about what is OSAS that leads you to a wrong premise. Ephesians 2:8-10 means next to salvation is the working out of it. Build your faith and you need to grow in the knowledge of Christ.
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Umm, you OP equates obedience to salvation when the fact that obedience is a result of salvation and you are wrong about what is OSAS that leads you to a wrong premise. Ephesians 2:8-10 means next to salvation is the working out of it. Build your faith and you need to grow in the knowledge of Christ.
2 Corinthians 7 v9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

As you will notice, this repentance leading to salvation is not initial repentance in turning to Christ, as the context is addressing the wayward Corinthian church. It is repentance from sin.
 

Blade

Active member
Nov 19, 2019
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I am not the best when it comes to words.. forgive me.

From what I read it seems were not all on the same page. Well if you do not believe OSAS then what exactly does that mean to you. I am reading allot of "obey/obedience". Christ said to the 12 after they had been with Him day and night for about 3 years "if you love me keep my words".. or for some "obey my commandments" "if you love me you will keep my commandments".

Lets back up shall we. So if I am reading this right some fully understand what Christ was saying "if you love you will keep my commandments" You did notice there is no "or else" after that right? You do know you can believe in Jesus and not know Him or love Him right? I was saved in a Baptist Church when I was like 9. I remember it .. going up front fall on my knees crying and I still have the little book "the four spiritual laws" thats over 50 years old now. I didn't KNOW Jesus nor loved Him.. I believed john 3;16 so I was saved. Anyway so back up a few verses.. If you believe in Jesus as some say they do then you will do the works He did and greater works. Lets keep going and He will do what ever you ask in His name so the Father will be glorified in the son. Maybe we missed it.. He said it again.. if you ask me anything in my name I will do it. Then He says He will ask the Father and He will give you another helper and will abide with you for ever. Wow.. didn't Jesus also say in Luke if you ask the Father for the holy Spirit He will give it to you.. hmm

This talk about OSAS or you can lose your salvation as I see it is foolish, silly doctrines of man. There is no "once your are saved you will never lose your salvation" verse in the bibie. There is no verse for "after your saved if you don't obey do works you can lose your salvation/ if you keep sinning you can lose your salvation". What happens is OSAS will post this and that verse and there it is proof! The others side will do the same. Just post this and that verse and again.. POOF... there it is proof. Both are self/flesh talking that then takes the word of God to prove a personal belief as I see it.

I pray someone sees what I am trying to get you to see. You see one verse.. your missing so much being said or written. We love Jesus so much huh? So as we type do we care about those weak in the faith or new believers?

The Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are so real. This salvation born from above is from HIM! A gift where He stays with you .. that what HE started HE will finish. IT ALL FLOWS!
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,674
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I am not the best when it comes to words.. forgive me.

From what I read it seems were not all on the same page. Well if you do not believe OSAS then what exactly does that mean to you. I am reading allot of "obey/obedience". Christ said to the 12 after they had been with Him day and night for about 3 years "if you love me keep my words".. or for some "obey my commandments" "if you love me you will keep my commandments".

Lets back up shall we. So if I am reading this right some fully understand what Christ was saying "if you love you will keep my commandments" You did notice there is no "or else" after that right? You do know you can believe in Jesus and not know Him or love Him right? I was saved in a Baptist Church when I was like 9. I remember it .. going up front fall on my knees crying and I still have the little book "the four spiritual laws" thats over 50 years old now. I didn't KNOW Jesus nor loved Him.. I believed john 3;16 so I was saved. Anyway so back up a few verses.. If you believe in Jesus as some say they do then you will do the works He did and greater works. Lets keep going and He will do what ever you ask in His name so the Father will be glorified in the son. Maybe we missed it.. He said it again.. if you ask me anything in my name I will do it. Then He says He will ask the Father and He will give you another helper and will abide with you for ever. Wow.. didn't Jesus also say in Luke if you ask the Father for the holy Spirit He will give it to you.. hmm

This talk about OSAS or you can lose your salvation as I see it is foolish, silly doctrines of man. There is no "once your are saved you will never lose your salvation" verse in the bibie. There is no verse for "after your saved if you don't obey do works you can lose your salvation/ if you keep sinning you can lose your salvation". What happens is OSAS will post this and that verse and there it is proof! The others side will do the same. Just post this and that verse and again.. POOF... there it is proof. Both are self/flesh talking that then takes the word of God to prove a personal belief as I see it.

I pray someone sees what I am trying to get you to see. You see one verse.. your missing so much being said or written. We love Jesus so much huh? So as we type do we care about those weak in the faith or new believers?

The Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are so real. This salvation born from above is from HIM! A gift where He stays with you .. that what HE started HE will finish. IT ALL FLOWS!
Actually there are plenty of verses in James peter and John letters that mention the necessity of works after one believes in Jesus, in order to ensure you are saved when Jesus returns in his 2nd coming.
 
May 31, 2020
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Has nobody noticed that the Greek words are different because the first Greek word is for believeth and the other Greek word is for believeth NOT?
God’s Spirit and Word are not confined to our pathetic linguistic wherewithal.
 
May 31, 2020
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This was uncalled for. She was addressing me for welcoming her back. It has been a bit since she had posted.
Shame on you Duskey!
Whatever you say, LeastAmongMany.
How many accounts do you have?
 
May 19, 2020
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2 Corinthians 7 v9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

As you will notice, this repentance leading to salvation is not initial repentance in turning to Christ, as the context is addressing the wayward Corinthian church. It is repentance from sin.


Amen!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,064
699
113
2 Corinthians 7 v9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

As you will notice, this repentance leading to salvation is not initial repentance in turning to Christ, as the context is addressing the wayward Corinthian church. It is repentance from sin.
Then this nothing to do against with OSAS. Repentance is a change of mind...
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
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Then this nothing to do against with OSAS. Repentance is a change of mind...
Johnny commits adultery against his wife. Jack no longer commits adultery against his wife.

Who has had the change of mind? Johnny or Jack?
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Hebrews 5v9
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

- This verse further confirms the OP
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Johnny commits adultery against his wife. Jack no longer commits adultery against his wife.

Who has had the change of mind? Johnny or Jack?

Who works in us to change it?

Every time in respect to a new creation God must do the first work of calling (irresistible grace) a person to repent (comfort or ease oneself ). Its perfectly clear God not seen must do the first work of repenting. Then after a person is turned having heard the voice from within, then in turn they can repent towards God not seen. .

Two turnings. Satan the author of self righteousness would make it one a work we can perform without him .. First he turn us and then in turn we can confess and bear the shame of of sin . If no one to give a person power to turn .Nothing changes nothing .

Jeremiah 31:18-20 King James Version (KJV) I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; (1) for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; (2) and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
 
Apr 19, 2020
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Hi CS1, most OSAS believers do not believe that obedience is involved in our salvation. They typically say all that is required is BELIEF. But what does belief entail? A head knowledge that Jesus died and rose again? Or does it mean believe in Jesus (He being the Word, inclusive of His words spoken)? If the Lord that they call Lord is seen only as a Saviour and not actually as Lord then we have a problem...... Because the Bible is filled with His commands to believers. Are the believers FREE to disobey without consequence to salvation? Is the believer who answers this in the affirmative considering Jesus as Lord? With the definition of Lord meaning master and having lordship over a servant.

So back to the OP post......lets look at the same scripture but take other translations:

NLT : And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

ESV: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

NASB: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

ISV: The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

The above are 4 translations which seem to get it right in terms of translating the second part of the verse (The KJV and the NKJV which is my preferred translation, have this hidden in the words believe not). If we consider that the above 4 translations have it accurately translated, and the Greek shows this to be the case, then we see that OSAS has its challenge here. In that those who wilfully disobey Jesus will not inherit salvation.
Agreed the translations you mention have it correct. Obedience is clearly linked to salvation. We are saved to eternal life only if we continue to adhere to (Obey) all of God’s requirements.

OSAS I believe is unscriptural. Consider the following illustration: Imagine being rescued from a burning tower and the relief we would feel as we are safely taken from the building. The rescuer says: ‘ You are Safe now’. Yes we are saved from certain death. But what would happen if we decided to go back into the building for some foolish reason?
Our life would again be in danger.

Through disobedience to Christ we take ourselves out from under God’s saving grace. (Return to the burning building) The following scriptures John 15:2,6 and Hebrews 6:4-6 show the consequences of making such a foolish choice.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Imagine being rescued from a burning tower and the relief we would feel as we are safely taken from the building. The rescuer says: ‘ You are Safe now’. and a week later you find yourself in another burning building . And when calling 911 the operator says you were rescued from a burning building last week one is all that is allowed.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.Hebrew6; 4-6
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I've heard many works-salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's.
In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him
"after they have been saved through faith" by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works (Matthew 7:21-23). *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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I've heard many works-salvationists use Hebrews 5:9 to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and SDA's.
In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him
"after they have been saved through faith" by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works (Matthew 7:21-23). *In either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
Amen,

apart from faith there is no obedience, the jews obeyed the law and strove to be law keepers. Yet as Jesus said, they were disobedient, and I. The end, their unbelief was their downfall.

its no different today, people who do not truly believe (have faith) do all these religious deeds and try to live obedient lives, yet in the end, their works of righteousness (obedience) can not save them, because they reject Gods mercy (titus 3)

its one thing to believe Jesus, it a far other thing to entrust your eternity to him,

as you said, without faith it’s impossible to believe him, even demons believe...many in that day will recall all their great works of obedience and even supposed miracles they have done, Jesus will simply in sadness say depart from me for I never knew you