Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
12,689
522
113
#41
The Greagt Whore is prophesied in a vision to Joh by Jesus Christ, long after Israel had been subject to Greece adn Rome successively.

Jerusalem was not a power to be reckoned with during these occupations nor afterward.

There are some carried away by diverse teachings, fables even, that the Millennium is already past also. When seven comes before one, perhaps this will be true, but reality declares it is a lie.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
12,689
522
113
#42
We are warned the before Jesus Christ returns, apostasy will abound. What is whoredom throughout the Word but apostasy.

If when examining the teachings of various denominations under the umbrella called Christian one does not detect apostasy abounding, I cannot say more. It began even in the Time of Pul, so do not think it has diminished over the centuries.


Have all who study the Word read how the Great Whore is the Mother of whores? This bears some thought, meditation, prayer...

It stands to reason, for it is reasonable, that when our Father calls His children our of the Great Whore, He will be calling them out of all of her daughters also, right?! I believe this, yes, I cannot avoid believing this.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
5,125
140
63
#43
If you're not born again, you are not God's.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
7,411
534
113
#44
Any catholic who does not submit to official catholic church teachings is not a catholic no matter how much they calim to be catholic.. The same goes for people who proclaim themselves as christians but at the same time disagree with the teachings and way of salvation revealed in the Gospels...

Christianity is defined by the Bible scriptures.. Not christians..

catholisism is defined by the official catechism of the catholic church.. not catholics..

If there are any Christians still in the catholic church they are living a lie and should get out of that harlot church ASAP.. If they don't then they are offering public support for the catholic church and all the doctrines of the catholic church by publicly standing in a catholic church and taking part in the mass and other catholic religious practices..


This seems like an extremely arbitrary definition of "Catholic."

If you're going to define a thing, you'll also have to prove that definition is true.


We have two problems here:



1. You'll need to back up your definition - you'll have to prove your definition with something stronger than your presumptions, like official statements from the Catholic church.


A. The Magisterium of the Catholic Church is the only entity with the authority to determine who is officially a Catholic, as they have full and sole authority to set their own standards and definitions. Since it is the Catholic Church which creates and maintains membership in the Catholic Church, and thus determines WHO IS CATHOLIC, you'll have to find something which supports your position from their own official sources.

B. Since the Catholic church allows all kinds of craziness within their ranks, I don't think you'll be able to find any official statements that deny membership to every person with the slightest disagreement.


If you CAN produce some kind of statement saying all Catholics must believe only and all official policies in order to have membership in the Catholic Church, and they can never change their mind about the slightest things without losing that standing... then I'm quite certain I can turn around and find official statements loosening that restriction.

If you can find some ancient decrees declaring the slightest disagreement as heresy, I'm quiet sure I can find more recent decrees abrogating those... as the Catholic Church changes it's positions continually.

There are even priests and cardinals who openly defy standard church doctrines.
Good grief, the Popes don't even agree with each other.
Good luck with this.



2. If you DO back up this definition of "Catholic" with official church statements (which I doubt is possible), you'll still need to show how this is in any way RELEVANT or PERSUASIVE to the average Catholic.

"I'm a Catholic."
"No you're not."
"I'm a Catholic."
"No you're not."

This isn't very persuasive.


How much time exactly do you intend to waste arguing with a Catholic trying to tell him he's not really a Catholic?
Even if you ARE correct, no one is going to accept any label except the label of their own choosing... so this argument, even IF correct, is still futile.

I understand this may be useful for witnessing, to show a "catholic" they don't actually agree with the Catholic Church... this can be a good "starting place" for witnessing.
But here you're dealing only with ontology, and not epistemology.
If a person WANTS to be a CATHOLIC, and BELIEVES they are a Catholic, and they intend to REMAIN a Catholic... then although you can debate them, your DEBATE HAS NO MAGICAL POWER TO PERSUADE THEM.

And I'm not at all convinced you can prove a Catholic is not a Catholic to begin with.
The most you can do is show where they disagree with some church doctrines... and this doesn't officially turn them into a non-catholic.
 
Last edited:

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
299
9
0
#45
I believe that there is more than enough within the official teachings of the Catholic church to consider their doctrine non-Christian.
Throughout this forum, we find multitudes of members ardently arguing that the ONLY requirement for salvation is faith Christ, and yet very many of these same people argue that Roman Catholics, at least for the most part, are not Christians! And they do not argue that they are not Christians because they do not have faith in Christ, but because some of their beliefs are not shared by most Protestants.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,782
541
113
#46
Throughout this forum, we find multitudes of members ardently arguing that the ONLY requirement for salvation is faith Christ, and yet very many of these same people argue that Roman Catholics, at least for the most part, are not Christians! And they do not argue that they are not Christians because they do not have faith in Christ, but because some of their beliefs are not shared by most Protestants.
If you would believe that justification is by grace through faith PLUS the sacraments PLUS adherence to the RCC, then you would not be simply believing in Christ. And that's where the problem arises. There is always something ADDED to the finished work of Christ.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
5,125
140
63
#47
Oh! I understand now! We are to hear you and impudently arrogant uneducated men who have never even read the Holy Scriptures, but no one who knows anything about the Bible.
Careful now, this man is old enough to be your father.
 

Sagart

Senior Member
May 7, 2017
299
9
0
#48
If you would believe that justification is by grace through faith PLUS the sacraments PLUS adherence to the RCC, then you would not be simply believing in Christ. And that's where the problem arises. There is always something ADDED to the finished work of Christ.
This argument would be sound if the presumptions in it about the Roman Catholic Church were true—but they are not!

Let’s take a look at the sacrament of water baptism. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the grace for salvation is normatively conferred through the sacrament of water Baptism.

Rom. 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (NASB, 1995)


According to this passage of Scripture, each one of us became accountable for Adam’s sin the moment that Adam ate the forbidden fruit. The proof of this, Paul argues, is that people died before the Law was given even though sin is not imputed when there is no law. Therefore, they could not have died for their own personal sins, but only for the sin that they committed in Adam. Therefore, every child born into this world is born with the guilt of their sin in Adam. This is, of course, why babies and infants who have not yet reached the age of reason are just as subject to death as are adults. And, of course, this is why all of the main-line Christian denominations baptize babies. Compare the First Epistle of Peter,

1 Pet. 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19. in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. (NASB, 1995)


Notice especially the words in 1 Pet. 3:21, “baptism now saves you.” This is perhaps the most direct and clearest statement in all of the New Testament, that is, unless you happen to read a commentary on 1 Peter written by a Baptist who will probably believe differently. Peter believed that water baptism, when preceded by faith and repentance, was efficacious for salvation. Indeed, he is quoted by Luke in Acts 2:37-38 as saying that repentance and water baptism result in the forgiveness of one’s sins. The immediate context, indeed, the very next phrase, “and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” conclusively proves that salvation is in view here. That is, in order to be saved, the believer in Christ, according to Peter, must repent of his sins and be baptized in water.

Acts. 2:37. Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (NASB, 1995)


We see very clearly from these passages in the New Testament that infants are born with the guilt of the sin that they committed in Adam. We also very clearly see that, from Peter’s perspective, water baptism, when preceded by faith and repentance, is efficacious for salvation. This leaves us with the problem that infants are born with the guilt of the sin that they committed in Adam and yet they are not capable of faith and repentance. Therefore, we have the unresolved problem of whether or not baptizing infants is efficacious in remitting the sin that they committed in Adam.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
7,607
425
83
#49
people are people, no matter who has sucked/seduced them-in, but when Jesus calls,
we will follow Him and obey His Words to us: and to Him, and Him only will we be
Loyal and True...
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
404
0
#50
In the last 5 or 6 years, I have come to find that when I read the Bible for what it is, and how it is truly written, I cannot, with an honest clarity, accept some of the things I was taught by sincere people I respected.... and who fully believed what they taught me.

Many people, right here, have called me quite a few names for that. Because they still believe some of the things I no longer do.

Sincere Catholics were taught things by sincere people whom they respected. And we Protestants are, as a whole, calling their respected teachers some of the most vile names to come out of a human mouth.

Catholics are really not a bit different than some of us in that they will die on the hill of stubbornly defending the things they were taught by people they believe in. We do exactly the same.

I could care less about trying to damn the Catholic religion. But, it is a serious disappointment to me that people claiming to love like Christ does, seem to almost take glee in abusing people in that church, when they detest it being done to them by nonbelievers.

I think a lot of things are wrong in what both Catholics and Protestants swear they believe. But, I see my place as to only follow Jesus as I have come to know Him, .... NOT to slam the beliefs of others when they are simply trying their best to worship the same God as I claim to worship.

All I can honestly tell someone (Catholic or Protestant) is how I understand things..... NOT that they are wrong.
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
14,546
396
83
#51
I don't think there is scripture pertaining to the Catholics themselves but while I do think that many Catholics follow a very large set of corrupt and unchrist like doctrines I cannot say that all of them are not saved. I mean God looks to the heart if say a Catholic adores God and seeks him everyday with all his heart yet has been under the Catholic doctrines for so long that he or she doesn't know they follow incorrect doctrines who am I to say if they are saved or not? The thing is we cannot lump together the catholics and saved or not being saved because only God knows their hearts.

Honestly I would feel pretty arrogant saying Catholics aren't saved just because I am a Christian and they are Catholics I mean honestly who am I to think I know their hearts well enough to decide if their saved or not? Besides do you know how many people call themselves Christians and yet do nothing but badger and look down on others?
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
7,607
425
83
#52
a very sweet Post, Willie, but we always have to remember and acknowledge what the
catholic-church-world has done and those who are behind the scenes, manipulating the
poor and destitute, and the widows and fatherless for their OWN GAIN, just look at their wealth
and the ways in which they display them: it's un-fathomable and mind boggling at the control that
they have over the 'poor and needy, lame lambs and sick...
hub and I call it 'witch-craft' to the max, the Bible tells us all about it...
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
404
0
#53
a very sweet Post, Willie, but we always have to remember and acknowledge what the
catholic-church-world has done and those who are behind the scenes, manipulating the
poor and destitute, and the widows and fatherless for their OWN GAIN, just look at their wealth
and the ways in which they display them: it's un-fathomable and mind boggling at the control that
they have over the 'poor and needy, lame lambs and sick...
hub and I call it 'witch-craft' to the max, the Bible tells us all about it...
Yet, all we were told by Jesus to do was to tell them what we feel we understand as the truth. I honestly feel we were never told to bash them and tell them they are duped, like dumb idiots, and that everything they have ever believed in is a pack of lies. And we all know many of us do just such a loving thing to them at every chance we get

I think it really does show our failing disregard for The Holy Spirit's power if we think that He cannot work with their hearts after we have told them the simple, truthful story of Christ's love for us.....minus the bashing of a belief they have held since childhood.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
3,282
190
63
#54
The average parishioner is not doing these things.

I think it is one thing to point out the problems with the institution and the hierarchy, but also realize that the average parishioner is indoctrinated into a certain set of beliefs that they think are correct.

Ritual and tradition are very binding.



a very sweet Post, Willie, but we always have to remember and acknowledge what the
catholic-church-world has done and those who are behind the scenes, manipulating the
poor and destitute, and the widows and fatherless for their OWN GAIN, just look at their wealth
and the ways in which they display them: it's un-fathomable and mind boggling at the control that
they have over the 'poor and needy, lame lambs and sick...
hub and I call it 'witch-craft' to the max, the Bible tells us all about it...
 

stand2

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2017
289
20
18
#55
"thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." So now we go out and kill all the catholics (sarcasm). Seriously though, I'm not going to run around pointing my finger at individual catholics.
As for the catholic church (and it's teachings) I personally have a multitude of reservations and feel that, until a reformation type pope is put into power (a word reservation) the church will continue to decay. I don't want to get to drawn out, so I've tried to put a lot in this nutshell.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
23,014
1,546
113
63
Florida
#57
Catholicism is just like any other denomination in that there are doctrinal errors and practices. Only the shed blood of Jesus dying for your sins makes salvation possible. This is true for anyone regardless of their denomination, if any. This is just another thread giving opportunity to bash Catholics. This crap is getting old fast.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
23,014
1,546
113
63
Florida
#58
catholics are not Christians...
They pray to dead people ... Christians pray to God..
They pray repitious prayers .. Christians believe Jesus when he said do not pray repitious prayers..


Thats just two of many examples... Anyone who does not believe Jesus, who rejects His words are not Christians..
Really? What denomination exactly is one considered a Christian then? You can poke holes in any denomination. I do agree with your last sentence though. I haven't met a Catholic yet that has rejected Jesus.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
23,014
1,546
113
63
Florida
#59
The Catholic church teaches many things that are contrary to Scripture.

Scripture refers to Jesus as the Word of God. Jesus refers to Scripture as the Word of God.

I believe that the Bible is the visible representation of Jesus until His return.

Therefore I believe that ANYTHING (including the Catholic church) that puts the authority of men above the authority of Scripture is not Christian.

I believe that there are Christians in the Catholic Church; but I believe that the Holy Spirit probably leads most of them to leave.
Finally, a member with the voice of reason speaks plainly the truth of the situation.
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
#60
Catholicism is just like any other denomination in that there are doctrinal errors and practices. Only the shed blood of Jesus dying for your sins makes salvation possible. This is true for anyone regardless of their denomination, if any. This is just another thread giving opportunity to bash Catholics. This crap is getting old fast.
Well said, and I agree. Through discerning the OP's other posts, he would be the first one asking for thread removal and banning if we posted a thread titled:

Is the Jimmy Swaggert doctrine, the message of the cross, a doctrine of devils?