Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience

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Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,939
725
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#21
Btw,how exactly can one put someone on ignore.
All i see is " you have noone on ignore"
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,939
725
113
#22
I have not seen her since. The toxicity had me vacation this place for a few weeks.
Demonically toxic.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,493
963
113
Texas
#23
This is a matter of causation, obedience is a product of salvation not the converse.
Kind of like when you respect an elder so if he asks for something you do it. It's done out of respect.
Obedience is done out of love for Christ, because he first loved us.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,721
499
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#24
I know a while back i pointed out in a thread " in the christian walk your level of victory depends on your level of comitment" or something like that.
The attacks were incredible.
The "problem" with me is that i read my bible.
That is where i get stuff from,plus walking with God for 40 years.
One person in particular needed to be put on ignore.
It seems to me that our churches today are no better than cults, for doctrines seems to have taken over, doctrines that have ideas of the pagans mixed in.

The great cry of the "church" is to be saved and once saved you are a finished Christian. It isn't accepted to speak of our walk, it consists of work that doesn't save.

Scripture tells us God is one, and doctrines say that there are two--Christ to be listened to and the Father who is old fashioned and can be ignored. To prove their point, they point out there were no jails at the time God's ways were given to us and no prisons so they used stoning. So God the Father's ideas are all out of date.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
11,079
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#25
It seems to me that our churches today are no better than cults, for doctrines seems to have taken over, doctrines that have ideas of the pagans mixed in.

The great cry of the "church" is to be saved and once saved you are a finished Christian. It isn't accepted to speak of our walk, it consists of work that doesn't save.

Scripture tells us God is one, and doctrines say that there are two--Christ to be listened to and the Father who is old fashioned and can be ignored. To prove their point, they point out there were no jails at the time God's ways were given to us and no prisons so they used stoning. So God the Father's ideas are all out of date.
God used more than just stoning. There was a system of restitution: repay up to seven times what you stole. There was also cities of refuge, which amounted to an honor system prison. Those were used in cases like manslaughter when a person's carelessness causes a death. In the cities of refuge, there is no free room and board. If you want to eat you must work. You leave before you time is up, the family of the one you killed could kill you with impunity. In God's system the criminals will have to work harder than the rest of us. I covered this in the first book I wrote. The Lord will be setting something like that in the millennium. :cool:
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,251
421
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#26
its faith plus obedience, you cant have one without the other and both are just as important as the other.
anyone can claim faith, even those that dont have it, its just a word and who is anyone to question it.
obedience however is a bit different, its defined by your actions. and those actions will show your true self. IMO if one has obedience they have faith.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,497
1,002
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#27
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
He credited it to them (Abraham and Rehab) as mutually imputed'
We are saved by the work of Christ's faith as a labor of His love that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure. This faith is not of our own selves. Natural man is said to have "no faith" not little but none. But one, the mutual faith of Christ that is imputed to us mutually as it was imputed the Abraham. Faith is the free gift that does work .
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,056
14,684
113
#28
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
The just shall live by faith.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,497
1,002
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#29
Many from my experience seem to be afraid of acknowledging God has faith or needs faith .Faith represents the it as in as it is written. Therefore we abide in him as it is wriiten .

By not acknowledging God has faith it makes it difficult to reconcile Ephesian and James . But we must acknowledge God does have faith and uses it as a work .This is in order to let him not seen be true and every man seen a lair.

In Romans 3 we are informed what if some do not believe or exercise faith that comes from hearing God? Would their unbelief (no faith) make the faith of God without effect? To effect something is to work it out .

If we deny the faith of God we deny the work of God, seeing faith without works has no energy as in dead. Just as a body without the spirit essence of life cannot perform

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Romans 3:3-4

We can put our new born again faith in God because he first gives us the faith to believe him ….coming from or of God. As always he must do the first works .We love him because he first loved us.

The Nicolaitanes were faulted for leaving that love and having the faith of Christ in respect to man seen Nicole the leader of that sect.

James 2 helps us to understand the importance of acknowledging God has faith and uses it to work in men. Setting the pace for rest of the chapter

James 2 begins with a commandment not to perform that in which the Nicolaitans were faulted for... having the faith of, coming from Christ in respect to persons, Nicole the leader of the Nicolaitans.

James 2:1 King James Version My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Again faith of not faith in .That would turn things upside down

The conclusion is found in verse 7. Do they who have the faith of Christ(coming from) in respect to men seen blasphemes the holy name by which we are called heavenward.

James 2:7 King James Version Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#31
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience? (That is the question the OP asks)

None of the above! A true faith exercises and shows itself through works -- but salvation is by faith, not by works.

Salvation, however is not by "faith alone" - for a true saving faith will manifest itself to some level of works.
GOD only mentioned believe.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,721
499
83
#32
.
Yes, by the faith of Christ, the faith that comes from hearing God.

It is called the hearing of faith in Galatians 3
In Romans Paul goes on to explain how grace and works are seen by God.

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
Romans 6:6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,721
499
83
#34
God used more than just stoning. There was a system of restitution: repay up to seven times what you stole. There was also cities of refuge, which amounted to an honor system prison. Those were used in cases like manslaughter when a person's carelessness causes a death. In the cities of refuge, there is no free room and board. If you want to eat you must work. You leave before you time is up, the family of the one you killed could kill you with impunity. In God's system the criminals will have to work harder than the rest of us. I covered this in the first book I wrote. The Lord will be setting something like that in the millennium. :cool:
If we have just one God, then we can't put what God says on ignore. God gave 613 guides for us to live by, and some of them don't apply to us. For example, those including the high priest. We are to learn what the high priest did, for now Christ is our high priest and performs those duties.

Paul explained that we are to die with Christ to sin. Our sins are gone with Christ, but we then are given understanding of God's spirit. With that we obey what God tells us, but from the spirit of God. As an example God told Hebrews to be circumcised of the flesh, but we are to understand the spirit of God in that instruction and be circumcised in that way. They were told what to eat and not eat, and we are to understand what that taught them and do those things without the physical guide to it.

But there are some things that God told us to do "for all generations" for example. These are things like the Sabbath and the feasts that didn't lead to something. They were worship that we need to do.

As I read the 613 ways God tells us to live, I see God's spirit in many of them. How can we tell what we should listen to and what does not apply to us today? Our fabrics today wouldn't pass scripture, they are wonderful. I understand how not mixing what God created as it applies to food. Food left alone is healthy, that over processed and mixed is unhealthy. Tattoos were out because it was the heathen way to worship and they altered the skin as God created it, I can see how they would not pass. How can we determine what is Godly if we truly wanted to live in harmony with the way God created us to live?
 

Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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#35
We are saved by faith. But faith works. This doesn't justify us to God, but it shows our faith to others.

We can't be obedient if we are not saved. It doesn't work. Because obedience in the NT is loving one another as He loved us.

If we are not lead by the Spirit we are not sons of God. We are lead by the Spirit because we are saved. Part of being "saved" is uniting with His Spirit.

As far as the law, we don't come in under the law. We come in through the promise given to Abraham ("in you all nations shall be blessed") which was given before the law.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

For those who might wonder what Paul is saying here. Let me sum it up. The Law came through Moses, but the promise came through Abraham. This was a covenant given BEFORE the covenant given to Moses. That's why it says "the law does not annual a covenant previously ratified by God". The Law does not make the promise given to Abraham and his offspring (Christ) void.

Our inheritance does NOT come by the Law. It comes through promise.

What is this promise? Gal 3:14 tells us this.

14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

The function of faith "saves" us, but this is so we receive the Spirit of God. And it is by receiving the Spirit of God that we are sons.

In Christ there is no Jew and no Gentile. All are made one in Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
1,935
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#36
Show me a champion in faith who didn’t equal commitment in deeds. Christianity is not a passive faith. It is a complete handing over of your flesh to the Almighty. This is done with the faith that His Son is our Saviour and we will be rewarded with a new body and everlasting life at the resurrection.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,939
725
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#37
There seems to be a mental block concerning the works/faith concept.
Works seems to trigger some alarm to automatic default into salvation.
Even when it is framed OUTSIDE Salvation.
The sins of omission are all works.
Works that were undone and punishment applied.
I don't know of any solution to the members here.
It seems to be some perpetual mis understanding.
It almost has to be rooted in ignorance of the word.
 
Oct 8, 2018
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#38
Shalom everyone.

1. When Reading the Bible: Context, Audience, History and Ability to Connect EVERYTHING is key in understanding G-d’s perfect word.

2. A small modern parable: Do you have faith in your future spouse before you take the leap of “_____” into marriage? Ok. Once you get married, do you simply state in your heart alone, “I love my spouse” and leave it at that? No! Your marriage would end in a matter of weeks. A marriage is a sacrifice from each partner and to “listen” to what the other needs or asks (of course nothing sinful) and this especially goes for MEN (to be submissive to their wives).

Now you have faith in G-d and His Messiah? Good. Everything on earth “believes”, but if you are not fulfilling your role as a Jew or Gentile, male or female, than your faith is nothing but flat air.

3. Avraham built his faith step by step. In fact if you count, Avraham goes through 10 major trials right up to the Akadia (binding of Yitzchak). However He OBEYED perfectly with a LOVING yet WILLING heart to follow G-d’s Commands (mitzvot), Ordiances and Decrees, even if he didn’t understand them, because He knew in His heart that EVERYTHING G-d does and asks, is perfect and GOOD. Only humans make justifications to ignore G-d’a perfect commands.

So Yes, faith like Avraham leads to works, but those who simply do works to acclaim for their OWN SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS, is WRONG. Do you not love your family or enemies more today since you a have faith in Yeshua? I hope so. This is part of the labour Jews and Gentiles are called to do. So you think these works are in vein because you misread Paul?

4. Paul’s Context: Depending on the verse, you must remember most of the time, Paul is speaking to Gentiles in the context of SOME (NOT ALL) Jewish Sadduccees (these even in Judaism today are noted as heretical, because Jews don’t proselytize) who were forcing Jewish conversion on the Gentiles. Why? Well you must remember that Gentiles always had a place in heaven (Righteous Gentiles - Noachide followers) before Yeshua’s death but if you wanted any part of being PART of Israel, you HAD to have a Brit Millah (circumcision).

Gentiles now no longer needed a Brit Millah to be PART of the Israelites, through Yeshua’s death on the cross (Praise G-d!!!), but this was a very difficult situation to deal with. So for the most part, Paul who was sent to the Gentiles, was going ALL OUT to protect them from being put under the Torah (WHICH OS PERFECT....because who made it??? - *trick question lol*). Now the Sadduccees went one step further with their heretical teachings because they believed that Self righteousness in the Torah and being EXTRA righteous = salvation(which was perversion of the Torah). So of course Paul sounds “anti-Torah” but when you understand the context, HEAVEN FORBID is that the case. For he himself is a Pharisees and Jews have a different role to play.

5. If someone argues that no “works” as an output of faith is necessary, then explain the following commandments given to Gentiles:

- Acts 15:20-21 (4 of 7 Noachide laws)
- 1 & 2 Corinthians is FILLED with “laws” from Paul to follow (Jew or Gentile) and some could say these are “man made traditions” but even I agree Paul is write because his thinking is that of a Rabbi (what do you think he studied for 3 years back in Jerusalen After he was saved? Christian theology???)
- Matt 23:1-3: The Master himself tells us to LISTEN to the Pharisees just don’t do what’s they do (because many unfortunately at the TIME were hypocrites :( and the Talmud fully agrees)

I hope this helps :)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
566
113
#39
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
Faith is believe.

Believe is trust or entrust.

A was live in Los Angeles. He want to go to San Diego. He is blind and can not drive.

B offer him to take to San Diego He (B) said, follow me, I take you to San Diego.

A trust/have a faith in B than he obey to B and follow B.

So obey is trust or faith in action.

A proof his trust or faith in B by follow or obey.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,497
1,002
113
#40
.

In Romans Paul goes on to explain how grace and works are seen by God.

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
Romans 6:6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Yes God looks upon the heart. He will not forget the good works we do offer towards his name as he works in us with us to both will and perform his good pleasure. The kind of imputed righteousness he worked in Rehab and Abraham.