Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,664
1,978
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#41
This post was in response to a post saying it was not true that Sabbath keepers posted it was required for salvation. This post is to say it is true some SKs made this statement.

I really don't want to be rude and this saying is rude, but it is so apt I can't resist.

Put up or shut up.
If we toss out Moses or get rid of any suggestions for living called law that God gives we can be putting our eternal life in extreme danger.
This is from you.

Its dis-honest of legalists and workers to say that the law is not needed for salvation but then under-handedly state that you better follow the law or your eternal life is in danger.

I know that judaizers don't openly come out and say a person has to work at the law in order to attain to Salvation. Because it is too easy to disprove in just a few scriptures.

It just doesn't make sense to be a legalist or judaizer if there isn't something of importance that you could accuse people of in order to condemn them and try to force them into your incorrect philosophy. If salvation isn't on the line then why follow all the silly carnal rules judaizers place on themselves in some imagined sense of righteousness that they get from it?

There is no reason. If you think you are closer to God by working at the law then you think you are righteous because of it. Its just a fact. If you think that your eternal life is in danger because you are not following a particular law, then you think salvation is by your work at the law.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#42
This is from you.

Its dis-honest of legalists and workers to say that the law is not needed for salvation but then under-handedly state that you better follow the law or your eternal life is in danger.

I know that judaizers don't openly come out and say a person has to work at the law in order to attain to Salvation. Because it is too easy to disprove in just a few scriptures.

It just doesn't make sense to be a legalist or judaizer if there isn't something of importance that you could accuse people of in order to condemn them and try to force them into your incorrect philosophy. If salvation isn't on the line then why follow all the silly carnal rules judaizers place on themselves in some imagined sense of righteousness that they get from it?

There is no reason. If you think you are closer to God by working at the law then you think you are righteous because of it. Its just a fact. If you think that your eternal life is in danger because you are not following a particular law, then you think salvation is by your work at the law.
Those that think we don't need the law for salvation but low-key say we need to keep the law IMO,are saying your sin Is bigger than my sin.
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
123
43
#43
Those that think we don't need the law for salvation but low-key say we need to keep the law IMO,are saying your sin Is bigger than my sin.
Hey! Seed_time_harvest... PTL!

The letter of the law has no curse of death in Christ and doesn't impart righteousness to any of us; but it still teaches us about sin. Now, I strive to obey the Spirit; not to gain righteousness or avoid a curse, but rather, to guard my conscience from guilt; not for salvation, but to posses a heart that condemns me not. A clear conscience empowers full power faith: so that I might, with confidence approach the Lord to obtain my prayer requests by keeping his commandments that we're written upon the tables of my heart and mind by the Spirit of the New Covenant and by doing those things which are pleasing in his sight. This kind of obedience in those who minister the Spirit in love, leads to an increased anointing of the Lord's presence that breaks the yoke and sets the captives free.

Maranatha!
 
Dec 9, 2011
11,215
919
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#44
Hey! Seed_time_harvest... PTL!

The letter of the law has no curse of death in Christ and doesn't impart righteousness to any of us; but it still teaches us about sin. Now, I strive to obey the Spirit; not to gain righteousness or avoid a curse, but rather, to guard my conscience from guilt; not for salvation, but to posses a heart that condemns me not. A clear conscience empowers full power faith: so that I might, with confidence approach the Lord to obtain my prayer requests by keeping his commandments that we're written upon the tables of my heart and mind by the Spirit of the New Covenant and by doing those things which are pleasing in his sight. This kind of obedience in those who minister the Spirit in love, leads to an increased anointing of the Lord's presence that breaks the yoke and sets the captives free.

Maranatha!
Yes,progressive sanctification
By the mercies of GOD let's present our bodies a living sacrifice which Is reasonable and not conform to the world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#45
This is from you.

Its dis-honest of legalists and workers to say that the law is not needed for salvation but then under-handedly state that you better follow the law or your eternal life is in danger.

I know that judaizers don't openly come out and say a person has to work at the law in order to attain to Salvation. Because it is too easy to disprove in just a few scriptures.

It just doesn't make sense to be a legalist or judaizer if there isn't something of importance that you could accuse people of in order to condemn them and try to force them into your incorrect philosophy. If salvation isn't on the line then why follow all the silly carnal rules judaizers place on themselves in some imagined sense of righteousness that they get from it?

There is no reason. If you think you are closer to God by working at the law then you think you are righteous because of it. Its just a fact. If you think that your eternal life is in danger because you are not following a particular law, then you think salvation is by your work at the law.
The lord is not dishonest,

The lord tells us we are saved by grace not works. That is just the way it is.

The lord tells us no drunkards, liars, etc. Will be part of the kingdom. To be great in gods kingdom we must work.

Your definition gf iudaizer and legalist is not biblically correct but I WILL PROUDy admit to putting on the spirit of the lord and do my best to follow Him. That means following law including Jesus' commentary as He gave it on the mt.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,664
1,978
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#46
The lord is not dishonest,

The lord tells us we are saved by grace not works. That is just the way it is.

The lord tells us no drunkards, liars, etc. Will be part of the kingdom. To be great in gods kingdom we must work.

Your definition gf iudaizer and legalist is not biblically correct but I WILL PROUDy admit to putting on the spirit of the lord and do my best to follow Him. That means following law including Jesus' commentary as He gave it on the mt.
You change the definition of judaizer and legalist to excuse your philosophy of mixing Grace with works. Why would that not surprise me?

If you look to the law to try and follow it and you tell people their eternal salvation is in danger if they don't follow it too, what does that make you???

Its ok to say it. All the Christians already know...
 

CherieR

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,131
487
83
#47
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
Abraham showed his faith and trust in God to fulfill his promises through his willingness to obey God even if it meant offering his son Issac in sacrifice to God. The Lord saw what Abraham did and stopped him before he could complete the act and so Abraham offered up the ram instead. If Abraham did not truly trust God to fulfill his promises to him through his son Issac then Abraham would not have been willing to obey God when God asked him to sacrifice Issac. Works did not save Abraham; only God saves. His work simply demostrated his strong faith and trust in God.
 

Argueless

Active member
Oct 21, 2018
658
158
43
#48
As God's co- wórkers, we urge you NOT TO PUT GOD'S GRACE IN VAIN.

A good and faithful servant worķìng for God òbeys His commands so that he may be made WORTHY OF GOD'S GRACE, thus we are called to be holy and LIVE HOLY LIVES as He is Holy.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#49
Grandpa your teaching against God's guidance means eve
mn teaching against the 23rd psalm saying the Lord is my shepard and praising His rod and staff.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
668
204
43
#50
Even Paul had a hard time explaining this for faith and obedience are so intertwined.

James was speaking to Jerusalem Jews in the book of James. James 2:14 to 26 used Abraham as a proof text saying that obedience was required. He told of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice and declared righteous because of this action.

Paul in Romans is speaking to believing Jews living away from Jerusalem and gentiles in Rome. Paul is teaching these Jews who believed in works only to achieve righteousness about faith for righteousness. He also used Abraham as proof text quoting Genesis 15:6 He (Abraham) believed in God and He credited it to him as righteousness.

They seem to disprove each other, yet both are truth.
How would you explain it? What do you believe?
Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The two writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Pauls, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time frame James refers to.

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH that obtains Him Righteousness.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith. Which he obtained 30-40 years earlier.

Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace & apostleship ""to call all the Gentiles to the obedience""
""that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: Faith, that leads to obedience. Obedience is a result of Faith)

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith, that leads to obedience. Obedience is a result of Faith)

We as did Abraham: Obtain Righteousness/Justification: Thru FAITH

Eph 2:
8 "By grace" are ye saved" "through faith" "not of yourselves" it is the "gift" of God

9 "Not of works" (NOT BY OUR WORKS/OBEDIENCE), "lest any man should boast"

The fruit Faith produces, is Obedience!
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,664
1,978
113
#51
Grandpa your teaching against God's guidance means eve
mn teaching against the 23rd psalm saying the Lord is my shepard and praising His rod and staff.
"God's guidance" is meant to bring us to Christ NOT to continue working in our carnal understanding of the law.

That's why there are so many with such a diverse understanding of what laws they think they need to keep and what laws they think are "done away".

Its all or none with the written law.

The LORD is my shepherd.

Not, the Law is my shepherd.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,040
2,967
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#52
Our Father considers disobedience as witchcraft.

It is written, faith without works is dead, that is to say it is no faith at all.

Now is this thread designed to discredit all who learn of God? And do what He teaches?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
668
204
43
#53
[QUOTE="It is written, faith without works is dead, that is to say it is no faith at all.[/QUOTE]

Context is always key:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:14-16 gives the context that verse 17 is speaking to: Context begins in verse 14 is ""Profit"" NOT salvation.

Salvation "is not deserved" & "cannot be earned".

Paul uses the same word "profit" in 1 Tim 4:8 where again the topic is "reward"

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

We are saved only by trusting Jesus's sin atoning work, finished on the cross!

Faith by itself is an action. Our works are unrelated to our salvation. Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice completed the works.

Having said that: After we proclaim our Faith in Christ's sin atonement & believe He was resurrected. We are saved!

Now, if we don't work in his service from this point. Our faith does not ""PROFIT"". I.E. produce fruits (Rewards). However, our salvation is still secure. see 1 Corinthians 3:15

If after salvation we add good works to our faith. Our good works in his service will receive rewards (produce fruits) in Heaven & can receive blessings on earth

Simply stated: As posted above in post #50. Abraham's good works were a result of his faith. Good works are the evidence of your faith not the cause of your salvation.

Works come after and from Faith

Romans 1:5 Through him we received grace & apostleship "to call all the Gentiles to the obedience" "that comes from faith" for his name’s sake.
(NOTE: It's our faith in Christ's finished redemptive work, that leads us into obedience)

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, "so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience" "that comes from faith"
(NOTE: Gentiles are brought to obedience thru their Faith)

One Fruit produces is Obedience!

Simply stated: Good works are the evidence of your faith not the cause of your salvation.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, & called us with an holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
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#54
I do not see how anyone can have faith and also deny that God is worth listening to. I could understand that obeying law legally without the spirit of the Lord is not acceptable. That could not excuse tossing out God's guidance. Obeying the spirit of God is also obeying the Law of Moses, just obeying it with the addition of love.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#55
I do not see how anyone can have faith and also deny that God is worth listening to. I could understand that obeying law legally without the spirit of the Lord is not acceptable. That could not excuse tossing out God's guidance. Obeying the spirit of God is also obeying the Law of Moses, just obeying it with the addition of love.
One who trusts (has faith) will do what the one the faith is placed in asks. Because they trust him, A lack of doing what he says proves there is no faith.

One who loves all will by practice obey the law because love does not sin against people you love (it does nto mean you will be perfect)

However, the law was not given to show us HOW to act it was given Only to show us HOW WE FAIL to act. To lead us to christ. (It proves us sinners, It shows us what must be done to be redeemed as a sinner. And it shows us Gods love and mercy, but also Gods judgement and justice.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
566
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#56
You change the definition of judaizer and legalist to excuse your philosophy of mixing Grace with works. Why would that not surprise me?

If you look to the law to try and follow it and you tell people their eternal salvation is in danger if they don't follow it too, what does that make you???

Its ok to say it. All the Christians already know...

So you believe killer rapist, liar go to heaven, becaouse salvation by grace not by work?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,245
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#58
So you think you are better and more deserving than a killer rapist (using Gods standard of sin)?
No I am not better, but my question is do you believe the bible?

Revelation 21:8 New International Version (NIV)

8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Is this verse say, because salvation by grace, than murder is ok, sexually immoral go to heaven?

Seem to me murderers go to lake of burning sulfur, I do not know If you believe this. verse AS the word of God and can be trust.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#59
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous.
It was a righteous work of Christ working in Paul or James or any believer or labor of His love faithfully working in Abraham to both will and perform the good pleasure of Christ . Making the work of Christ complete (perfect) not a righteousness of Abraham or Rehab the two examples.

The main problem as I see it is men try and separate faith from works. Which would be like separating the spirit of life from the body and hope for some kind of moment other than other moving the coffin

The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.


That was a work of Christ's faith, our Faithfull Creator working in Abraham also. Job 23 informs us he performs that which he does appoint to us .If its his will and we do it, it is because he makes it possible to perform it .Philippians 2 informs us not to murmur but rejoice knowing it is Christ who does work in us to both will and perform it.Why would a person murmur and complain other that he would have to swallow his pride and except the righteous they do have is not of there own self ?

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."


Yes justified by the work of Christ's faith that worked in him as a imputed righteousness.
Faith is the gift. Previously having none. Not little, but again, none

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Both the just one and the justifier according to His righteousness,
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,456
1,000
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#60
Is it faith not obedience, obedience not faith, or faith and obedience? (That is the question the OP asks)

None of the above! A true faith exercises and shows itself through works -- but salvation is by faith, not by works.

Salvation, however is not by "faith alone" - for a true saving faith will manifest itself to some level of works.
The it alone thing. The faith of Christ is not alone. His three day labor of love or work of his faith is never alone the father working with Him to bring us the peace of God that surpasses all human understanding .

If either is left alone both are rendered dead. You cannot have one without the other .

Love and marriage. Its the kind of marriage we have with Christ it goes together like a horse and carriage. Can't have one without the other. Old song.