Is Jesus God?

[VCO]

I take it you think they're ignorant?

'Do not say 'trinity': desist, it is better for you' .. Straight from the Koran.

'It does not behove God to have fathered a son' .. Straight from the Koran. Implying that the general sense of 'impregnation' is not what God did. However, the Koran does not deny that God caused Mary to have a child, nor that Jesus is the Madi.

Mary said, ‘My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me.’ He said, ‘So it will be, for God creates what He wills. When He decides something, He only says to it, ‘Be,’ and it is. ​- Straight from the Koran.

The Koran confirms the virginal conception, confirms the uniqueness of Jesus, yet denies the idea of the trinity and the idea that Jesus is the same as God, much the same as non-trinitarian christianity.

Just thought I'd elaborate on the false things you said.

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God. (born again)

And I believe that means if you do not receive HIM for WHO HE really is, part of the ONE GOD, (Father and Son and Holy Spirit), submitting to HIM as LORD, which means MASTER; you remain eternally unsaved.

 

[Angela53510]

Sophia, you already had your mind made up before you posted this thread. We all gave you good Biblical proof why Jesus is God. Yet, you sided with the unbelievers who denied Christ.

I could give you more Scriptural evidence in the Greek about why Jesus is God. But it seems like you don't believe the Bible. So I will give you my personal testimony, instead!

Before God saved me, I was a wretched person. I was an alcoholic who had tried to stop many times. I was selfish, proud and unstable. I studied the religions of the world and found no peace, no help or deliverance from my wretchedness.

But Jesus Christ called me by name, and it was no man! It was the voice of God! It was so real! It was more real than anything on this earth. And Jesus has never failed me, left me or forsaken me! He has been with me, guiding me and following me every day, very minute, every second of each day. Jesus Christ loves me with an everlasting love. That was almost 34 years ago I first heard God call me, and I remember that moment like it just happened. I still know and feel the presence of Christ every day!

If Jesus was only a man or a prophet, he would not be an omnipresent being. In other words, he could only be in one place at a time. He could not be walking beside me, and guiding all all the other Christians at the same time. If Jesus was just a man, he would not be omniscient. In other words, he would not know what was best for me. He might be able to help me a bit, but if he was just a man, how on earth could he "direct my paths" (Prov. 3:6)? If Jesus was just a mere man, he would not be omnipotent! He could not see his will done in my life, because he would not have the power to change anything, answer prayer, or do miracles, like in the Bible!

I worship "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." Titus 2:13 (notice the Granville-Sharp rule here! Oh right, you don't read Greek, let alone the English Bible!) When you deny that Jesus was fully man and fully God, you lose half of him. How could a good man save the world? He could not! Only God himself could save the world!

Please read carefully the Biblical posts, or you will never understand or know the living Saviour, Jesus Christ. And that is a fatal and deadly mistake. Person after person here has told you the truth, that Jesus is God! You have been warned of the consequence of your unbelief, please turn away from your humanistic downgrading of the deity of Christ, as one day, "every knee shall bow,me very tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord." Do it now, before it is too late!

 

[JaumeJ]

This is a wonderful witness and in accordance with the Holy Spirit moving upon the members today.

Although I was always prone to believing Jesus, Yeshua, I went through a dark time. I was very unhappy, and I too looked into so many religions finding them all wanting. finally, desperate and broken hearted, I locked myself in a room not intending to eat or leave until "I got some answers."

Well, I did, and as you said, "Jesus called me by name." He does this for many, while others, not so bull-headed, come to Him through people blessed with leading them, but ultimately, it is the Father Who draws each one of us to Yeshua, Jesus, praise Yahweh, God, amen.

Sophia, you already had your mind made up before you posted this thread. We all gave you good Biblical proof why Jesus is God. Yet, you sided with the unbelievers who denied Christ.

I could give you more Scriptural evidence in the Greek about why Jesus is God. But it seems like you don't believe the Bible. So I will give you my personal testimony, instead!

Before God saved me, I was a wretched person. I was an alcoholic who had tried to stop many times. I was selfish, proud and unstable. I studied the religions of the world and found no peace, no help or deliverance from my wretchedness.

But Jesus Christ called me by name, and it was no man! It was the voice of God! It was so real! It was more real than anything on this earth. And Jesus has never failed me, left me or forsaken me! He has been with me, guiding me and following me every day, very minute, every second of each day. Jesus Christ loves me with an everlasting love. That was almost 34 years ago I first heard God call me, and I remember that moment like it just happened. I still know and feel the presence of Christ every day!

If Jesus was only a man or a prophet, he would not be an omnipresent being. In other words, he could only be in one place at a time. He could not be walking beside me, and guiding all all the other Christians at the same time. If Jesus was just a man, he would not be omniscient. In other words, he would not know what was best for me. He might be able to help me a bit, but if he was just a man, how on earth could he "direct my paths" (Prov. 3:6)? If Jesus was just a mere man, he would not be omnipotent! He could not see his will done in my life, because he would not have the power to change anything, answer prayer, or do miracles, like in the Bible!

I worship "our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." Titus 2:13 (notice the Granville-Sharp rule here! Oh right, you don't read Greek, let alone the English Bible!) When you deny that Jesus was fully man and fully God, you lose half of him. How could a good man save the world? He could not! Only God himself could save the world!

Please read carefully the Biblical posts, or you will never understand or know the living Saviour, Jesus Christ. And that is a fatal and deadly mistake. Person after person here has told you the truth, that Jesus is God! You have been warned of the consequence of your unbelief, please turn away from your humanistic downgrading of the deity of Christ, as one day, "every knee shall bow,me very tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord." Do it now, before it is too late!

 

[Annata]

Or did GOD snatch him out of his time and place him at in the time of the End as one of the Two Witnesses that leads the remaining Jews whose names are written in the Book Life, to recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

Hebrews 9:27 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment—

Genesis 5:24 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.

2 Kings 2:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] As they continued walking and talking, a chariot of fire with horses of fire suddenly appeared and separated the two of them. Then Elijah went up into heaven in the whirlwind.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] As Elisha watched, he kept crying out, “My father, my father, the chariots and horsemen of Israel!” Then he never saw Elijah again. He took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces.

The only exception to that rule of being appointed to die once, that I see is:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.

If Enoch and Elijah are the Two Witnesses of REVELATION, they will die in the streets of Jerusalem at the hands of the Antichrist.

You see, I believe GOD is not only Omnipresent is every cubit inch of heaven and the universe, but also Omnipresent in every second of time at the same time. He is not a created being traveling through time, but literally the Creator of Time as we know it. He declares the End from the Beginning because HE is Omnipresent in all TIME. HE chose before foundation of the Earth those who are choosing HIM as LORD, which means MASTER.

If he's omnipresent in all time yet Jesus is God, then Jesus must also be onipresent throughout all time. In that case, Jesus would know 'that day and hour', which he doesn't.

 

[Annata]

What follower of islam can...?

Seriously?




''I said you ARE BLACK! THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT!'

 

[Annata]

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God. (born again)

And I believe that means if you do not receive HIM for WHO HE really is, part of the ONE GOD, (Father and Son and Holy Spirit), submitting to HIM as LORD, which means MASTER; you remain eternally unsaved.

I don't believe that. Being reborn is many things but I don't consider it adherance to a scriptural standpoint - a linguistic perspective. I consider it a physical and mental act - renewing the mind toward God's instruction - emulating Jesus.

In fact I believe that whether Jesus is God or not means essentially very little in and of itself. I would be quite accepting that anyone believes what they believe, provided they explore the other ideals and at least understand the arguments for and against them - the why's and how's, then come to their own conclusion.

Taking into account that Jesus' diety, even among christians, is a widely debated topic, I thoroughly doubt that your sole interpretation is the only one which understands Jesus in any real way. What you're essentially saying is that you know Jesus for what he is and you know the path to God and those who think differently on this topic do not.

That's a bold claim to make by any standards, but regardless of the depth of that claim, the fact remains that opposing arguments exist wherein each side can 'prove' their stance, at least to themselves.

I've heard many, many arguments for both and would consider it astounding to hear one I haven't heard before. That hasn't happened here. I'm sure you've heard the same time and again as-well.

 

[TrustInJesus]

If he's omnipresent in all time yet Jesus is God, then Jesus must also be onipresent throughout all time. In that case, Jesus would know 'that day and hour', which he doesn't.

This is where the idea of hypostatic union comes into play. Two natures in one being. Both God and man. Im not sure if anyone has shared this already in this thread and my apologies if they have, but allow me to share an excerpt from Philippians if I may. Philippians 2:5–8
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

 

[Annata]

This is where the idea of hypostatic union comes into play. Two natures in one being. Both God and man. Im not sure if anyone has shared this already in this thread and my apologies if they have, but allow me to share an excerpt from Philippians if I may. Philippians 2:5–8
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

A lot of doctrinal wangling and reading concepts into the text seems required to pull off this trinity doctrine. The alternative doesn't need it.

That text actually shows that while Jesus subsisted (what you've written 'existed'), or 'lived' by the form of God (daily bread and all that), he did not regard equality with god something to be seized.

He may be able to work with God's will, show God's character, but even he himself didn't consider himself equal to God.

 

[Annata]

It's interesting that you chose that verse actually, because the KJV translates it (incorrectly) 'Jesus, who did not consider it robbery to be equal with God' (the opposite of what you've written). The one you've used, the Mounce, I find much more reliable.

Note that the pretext is 'have this attitude in yourselves just like Jesus did'. If we have his attitude (using trinity logic) are we to assume diety in ourselves?

I wouldn't say so. rather, we have Jesus attitude by realizing that we can actually have the spirit. We can show God's will and character, without being equal to him, as Jesus did, as the verse says.

 

[TrustInJesus]

A lot of doctrinal wangling and reading concepts into the text seems required to pull off this trinity doctrine. The alternative doesn't need it.

That thread actually shows that while God subsisted, or survived by the form of God (daily bread and all that), he did not regard equality with god something to be seized.

He may be able to work with God's will, show God's character, but even he himself didn't consider himself equal to God.

I thought personally that those four lines were clear enough to not need the additional thought process you claim it needs. Though I do not expect anything to sway you if your mind is quite already made up, much as I hope you're not expecting any attempted refuting of our beliefs to sway us from our opinion. I believe the most constructive thing for me to do (as I will readily admit I am certainly not the most educated man in the world) at this point will be to pray for you, that perhaps one day with an open heart you may be enlightened as to the truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ much as I was, not long ago. God bless and have a good rest of your night.

 

[TrustInJesus]

It's interesting that you chose that verse actually, because the KJV translates it (incorrectly) 'Jesus, who did no consider it robbery to be equal with God' (the opposite of what you've written). The one you've used, the Mounce, I find much more reliable.

Note that the pretext is 'have this attitude in yourselves just like Jesus did'. If we have his attitude (using trinity logic) are we to assume diety in ourselves?

I wouldn't say so. rather, we have Jesus attitude by realizing that we can actually have the spirit. We can show God's will and character, without being equal to him, as Jesus did, as the verse says.

Deity ourselves, I would say not, though having the Holy Spirit inside of us would negate the need for any of us here to be deities. Though to be fair, I ask you to recall the part of the verse I shared where it mentions his emptying of Himself before assuming the flesh. I would be very curious as to your personal interpretation of that aspect.

 

[JaumeJ]

Was this post predesigned in an attempt to shake the faith of some believers? It seems there may be more than one in this thread with a great big agenda to spread philosophies of man in place of the rock solid Word of Yahweh.

If so, you may either come to Yeshua or await His Day for your ultimate answers. The first option is life in Jesus Christ; it is eternal, and it is true life, joy and gladness.

 

[Annata]

Deity ourselves, I would say not, though having the Holy Spirit inside of us would negate the need for any of us here to be deities.

Right, but consider the whole text.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (The attitude which is about to be spoken, is one that Jesus had, but that WE should ALSO have)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Jesus 'existed' by the form of God, but did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. If we are to also have this exact attitude, then we are to assume that we 'exist' in the form of God in the same way Jesus does, no more or less, thus, are we deities? Or simply carriers of spirit? Whichever we are, Jesus also is, by the logic of this verse)
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (as we are supposed to do. Empty ourselves and be reborn)
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (as we are to do, humble ourselves and be 'obedient' to God, as Jesus is 'obedient to God' unto self sacrifice).

If Jesus were God, how would he be obedient to God, if he were God? And How could he be unequal with God, if he were in fact God?

The idea requires the foregoing of logic in place of 'you can't understand'. Thus, anything anyone says to the contrary will be on deaf ears.

 

[TrustInJesus]

Right, but consider the whole text.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (The attitude which is about to be spoken, is one that Jesus had, but that WE should ALSO have)
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Jesus 'existed' by the form of God, but did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped. If we are to also have this exact attitude, then we are to assume that we 'exist' in the form of God in the same way Jesus does, no more or less, thus, are we deities? Or simply carriers of spirit? Whichever we are, Jesus also is, by the logic of this verse)
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. (as we are supposed to do. Empty ourselves and be reborn)
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross (as we are to do, humble ourselves and be 'obedient' to God, as Jesus is 'obedient to God' unto self sacrifice).

If Jesus were God, how would he be obedient to God, if he were God? And How could he be unequal with God, if he were in fact God?

Im still not on the same page with verse 7. If the empemptying ourselves and taking the form of a servant is simply being born again, how would that result in us becoming the likeness of man? That particular part doesn't seem to line up with the explanation provided.

 

[Annata]

The idea requires the foregoing of logic in place of 'you can't understand'. Thus, anything anyone says to the contrary will be on deaf ears. It's indoctrination with relinquishing of reason.

A child with no preconceptions would never arrive at the trinity. Not when Jesus and God are so plainly separate in this verse as they are throughout the entire bible, save perhaps two or three trinitarian held verses.

 

[TrustInJesus]

The idea requires the foregoing of logic in place of 'you can't understand'. Thus, anything anyone says to the contrary will be on deaf ears. It's indoctrination with relinquishing of reason.

A child with no preconceptions would never arrive at the trinity. Not when Jesus and God are so plainly separate in this verse as they are throughout the entire bible, save perhaps two or three trinitarian held verses.

I'm afraid I am genuinely trying to understand, yet I've got nothin'.

 

[Annata]

Im still not on the same page with verse 7. If the empemptying ourselves and taking the form of a servant is simply being born again, how would that result in us becoming the likeness of man? That particular part doesn't seem to line up with the explanation provided.

It doesn't result in it - being in the likeness of man is default. He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond servant, being made in the likeness of man. Jesus is made in the likeness of man just like all of us are made in the likeness of man. The part that says 'being found in appearance as a man' is pretext. It's a new sentence.

'but he emptied himself, taking up the image of a bond servant, being made in the likeness of men. Being in the likeness of man, he thus humbled himself by becoming obedient'.

The whole section is explaining that this attitude, of being unequal to God, yet by choice becoming a bond-servant for Him, by choice emptying ourselves, by choice humbling ourselves, as we are but man, is what we are meant to do, as Jesus did.

We're to 'have this same attitude'. Don't consider equality with God a thing to grasp, just as Jesus did not consider equality with God a thing to grasp. That statement in itself shows a few things; Jesus considered God superior to himself, he did not consider equality with God a good thing to strive for, and he was humble and accepted his place as obedient to the God above him.

 

[TrustInJesus]

It doesn't, being in the likeness of man is default. He emptied himself, taking the form of a bond servant, being made in the likeness of man. Jesus is made in the likeness of man just like all of us are made in the likeness of man. The part that says 'being found in appearance as a man' is pretext. It's a new sentence.

'but he emptied himself, taking up the image of a bond servant, being made in the likeness of men. Being in the likeness of man, he thus humbled himself by becoming obedient'.

The whole verse is explaining that this attitude, of being unequal to God, yet by choice becoming a bond-servant for Him, by choice emptying ourselves, by choice humbling ourselves, as we are but man, is what we are meant to do, as Jesus did.

We're to 'have this same attitude'. Don't consider equality with God a thing to grasp, just as Jesus did not consider equality with God a thing to grasp. That statement in itself shows a few things; Jesus considered God superior to himself, he did not consider equality with God a good thing to strive for, and he was humble and accepted his place as obedient to the God above him.

That's a very intriguing point that I'm afraid as a relative newbie to the faith, I am not equipped to refute. I greatly anticipate reading follow-up posts in this thread in the morning as I believe there could be a great deal to learn from them. Thank you for taking the time to discuss what I had shared directly and respectfully.

 

[Annata]

That's a very intriguing point that I'm afraid as a relative newbie to the faith, I am not equipped to refute. I greatly anticipate reading follow-up posts in this thread in the morning as I believe there could be a great deal to learn from them. Thank you for taking the time to discuss what I had shared directly and respectfully.

You're very welcome, and the same to you I appreciate your honesty, too.

 

[TrustInJesus]

You're very welcome, and the same to you I appreciate your honesty, too.

Its one of the few things I have to give. I find it more effective to honestly admit that I dont know and to look to learn more so that I can understand, than to dishonestly debate something that I do not fully understand. Dishonesty isnt a very good teacher I've found.