IS MAN TOTALLY DEPRAVED?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
Someone gave you a whole chapter and you ignored it, so you have lost the right to attack others who disagree with your intepretation of 20 verses.
You have failed to answer any of my questions to you. Where do you get off criticizing me?
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,680
7,737
113
You have failed to answer any of my questions to you. Where do you get off criticizing me?
I answered every one of your questions up to that point

You mocked me, several times, then refused to answer.

I think that gives me every right to critisize your intentions.

Your still refusing t answer. Because you can’t if you could have you would have, i only pray that in itself get you to open your heart.
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,680
7,737
113
You have failed to answer any of my questions to you. Where do you get off criticizing me?
And if you would like me to prove you are wrong here by saying i have failed to answer any, just say so and i will. For all the chatroom to see
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
8,112
4,492
113
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
KJV

Total depravity (as defined by Calvin) is more than just the sinfulness of man.

To believe that man’s will is totally corrupted and non-functional (total depravity) is not presented in scripture, moreover defies obvious reality and is irrational.

Even the unregenerate man has the ability to choose between self-control and careless abandon.

As well, to say an “unregenerate” spirit is incapable of free volition towards good is equally and totally absurd!!

History records many acts of persons (non-believers) doing incredible acts of self-sacrifice, for example, dying for complete strangers.

Tell me, is this an example of the total depravity that man is incapable of resisting as a result of a non-regenerative spirit ?

Tulip fails at the “T”

Moreover, God’s sovereignty is not dependent on man. He is wise enough and powerful enough to be sovereign despite man’s independent autonomous will.

It is the Calvinist system of total depravity that has the low, low view of God and their morally ambiguous God's regard for man is more closely aligned with contempt rather than love.
 

Macabeus

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
2,535
705
113
Unless those Scriptures are being misrepresented.

Calvinists misrepresent the sinful condition of the human race by taking it to an extreme which Scripture does not allow. As I have already stated Total Depravity (the T of TULIP) is a false doctrine, since it wilfully omits the fact (a) that every human being has a conscience, and (b) all humans are not continuously evil, or (c) incapable of responding to the Gospel under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit (the Gospel itself being the power of God unto salvation and the seed of the New Birth). Thus another false doctrine is created which puts regeneration (the New Birth) BEFORE saving faith.
Unless those Scriptures are being misrepresented.

Calvinists misrepresent the sinful condition of the human race by taking it to an extreme which Scripture does not allow. As I have already stated Total Depravity (the T of TULIP) is a false doctrine, since it wilfully omits the fact (a) that every human being has a conscience, and (b) all humans are not continuously evil, or (c) incapable of responding to the Gospel under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit (the Gospel itself being the power of God unto salvation and the seed of the New Birth). Thus another false doctrine is created which puts regeneration (the New Birth) BEFORE saving faith.
Total Depravity does not mean we are bad all the time. It means in our fallen, unredeemed state we are utterly sinful in all parts. And even when we are "good" it does not measure up to God's Holy standard. The Law condemns us all, we all stand guilty before God. And that's where Christ and Grace come in with healing in His Wings.

Calvinists, (am not a calvinist) believe the Gospel and Spirit are sufficient to save, but believe in a general call and an effectual call. And in irresistable grace. And that some are saved and drawn with irresistable grace and others are passed over.

I believe in an external call, the Gospel, and an Divine call, the Spirit, that work together. But I believe that Grace is freely and truly offered to all who hear the Gospel, but that Grace can be resisted. That is one of the points where I differ with Calvinist.

My position leaves me with both Calvinists and modern Arminians disagreeing with me, but it is what it is


This is just my two cents. I don't want to debate anyone on it, because it is rarely fruitful
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
660
202
43
Calvin's UNSCRIPTURAL limited atonement failure:

The question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".

1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.

Recap: Christ the propitiation = to make reconciliation/atoning sacrifice. 1 Jn 2:2 "for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" Jn 1:29 "TAKES AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" Jn 6:51 "for the life of the WORLD" 1 Tim 2:6 "gave himself a ransom for ALL"

These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY SIN & His payment can include EVERY PERSON ""ALL"".

HOWEVER, it doesn't do ANYONE any good ""until they appropriate Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection by faith/belief"".

The following verses show: Although, Christ's FINISHED work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)

John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: UNbelievers in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemed)

Everyone gets a "CHOICE". "BELIEVE" on the "SON", & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)

The only limit on mankinds salvation is: Individual Choice!

(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief.

A favorite straw man argument:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)

Christ was LIFTED-UP! Note ""ALL"" in the next verse, will be drawn:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(NOTE: Post death & resurrection. Salvation's invitation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who CHOOSE to trust/believe)

A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.

Christ died & paid for the sins of every person. Whoever "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in Christ's death (sins required wage PAID) & resurrection (God's receipt, payment received & accepted).

This notion that a persons salvation is already fixed is UNSCRIPTURAL. The notion we choose all by ourselves is UNSCRIPTURAL.

God has offered us a pardon. Accessed via our faith choice, placed in, Christ's redemptive sin atoning work/payment & resurrection.

It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's FINISHED redemptive work/payment, that are we saved! (Eph 2:8)

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(NOTE: Justified before or at birth? NO! Justified by a faith choice, we have peace/are reconciled to God via our Faith/choice placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning payment/work.

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(NOTE: We access God's grace, thru a faith choice placed in the FINISHED sin redemptive work of Christ. Found in his death (sins required wage PAID) & Christ's resurrection (God's receipt, payment received & accepted)
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
8,112
4,492
113
“For our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle. Those who term it concupiscence use a word not very inappropriate, provided it were added, (this, however, many will by no means concede,) that everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence.”
John Calvin

(Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 1, Section 8)


So interesting that Calvin focuses on "concupiscence" was he projecting his own issues on the rest of humanity?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,784
1,178
113
“For our nature is not only utterly devoid of goodness, but so prolific in all kinds of evil, that it can never be idle. Those who term it concupiscence use a word not very inappropriate, provided it were added, (this, however, many will by no means concede,) that everything which is in man, from the intellect to the will, from the soul even to the flesh, is defiled and pervaded with this concupiscence; or, to express it more briefly, that the whole man is in himself nothing else than concupiscence.”
John Calvin

(Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 1, Section 8)


So interesting that Calvin focuses on "concupiscence" was he projecting his own issues on the rest of humanity?
Its pretty easy to look at your thoughts and actions before Christ and then look at your thoughts and actions after coming to Christ.

Then read the scripture and see what happened and why.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,784
1,178
113
Calvin's UNSCRIPTURAL limited atonement failure:

The question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also ""for the sins of the whole world"".

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, ""which taketh away the sin of the world"".

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give ""for the life of the world"".

1 Timothy 2:6 Who ""gave himself a ransom for all"", to be testified in due time.

Recap: Christ the propitiation = to make reconciliation/atoning sacrifice. 1 Jn 2:2 "for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" Jn 1:29 "TAKES AWAY the SIN of the WORLD" Jn 6:51 "for the life of the WORLD" 1 Tim 2:6 "gave himself a ransom for ALL"

These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY SIN & His payment can include EVERY PERSON ""ALL"".

HOWEVER, it doesn't do ANYONE any good ""until they appropriate Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection by faith/belief"".

The following verses show: Although, Christ's FINISHED work of redemption is open to ALL! It is only applied to those that will CHOOSE to BELIEVE!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall have eternal life)

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ ""HAS PRESENT TENSE"" eternal life)

John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: UNbelievers in the son ""ARE ALREADY & WILL"" be condemed)

Everyone gets a "CHOICE". "BELIEVE" on the "SON", & you ""HAVE"" Eternal Life! Or "Don't believe & face the wrath of God"

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES in Christ shall never die)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(NOTE: Whoever will call on Christ shall be saved)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(NOTE: Whoever BELIEVES on Christ)

The only limit on mankinds salvation is: Individual Choice!

(A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

(B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief.

A favorite straw man argument:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(NOTE: Christ is still alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)

Christ was LIFTED-UP! Note ""ALL"" in the next verse, will be drawn:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(NOTE: Post death & resurrection. Salvation's invitation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who CHOOSE to trust/believe)

A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.

Christ died & paid for the sins of every person. Whoever "chooses" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in the Redemptive Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in Christ's death (sins required wage PAID) & resurrection (God's receipt, payment received & accepted).

This notion that a persons salvation is already fixed is UNSCRIPTURAL. The notion we choose all by ourselves is UNSCRIPTURAL.

God has offered us a pardon. Accessed via our faith choice, placed in, Christ's redemptive sin atoning work/payment & resurrection.

It's thru God's Grace & by placing our Faith in Christ's FINISHED redemptive work/payment, that are we saved! (Eph 2:8)

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
(NOTE: Justified before or at birth? NO! Justified by a faith choice, we have peace/are reconciled to God via our Faith/choice placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning payment/work.

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
(NOTE: We access God's grace, thru a faith choice placed in the FINISHED sin redemptive work of Christ. Found in his death (sins required wage PAID) & Christ's resurrection (God's receipt, payment received & accepted)
First, you have to understand what Atonement means.

Once you have a handle on that then you look at these scriptures;

John 3:18-19
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

If the whole world means every single living soul that was ever born and ever will be born in 1 John 2:2 then how can condemnation even be brought up? If every single person is atoned for then there can't be condemnation.

So it IS God that put a limit on the Atonement. And He did it in John 3. Only Believers in Christ are not condemned and therefore Atoned for.

That doesn't seem overly complicated, does it??
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
And if you would like me to prove you are wrong here by saying i have failed to answer any, just say so and i will. For all the chatroom to see
I had asked what you would do with 1 Peter 1:3
I had asked if you disagreed with the SCRIPTURE I had posted on the depravity of man
I had asked if you agreed that God IS sovereign

asked you several times in back posts what your defiinition of each of the docrines of grace are. (TULIP)

answer or not, you are not under obligation to me,......nor I to you.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
8,784
1,178
113
Total Depravity does not mean we are bad all the time. It means in our fallen, unredeemed state we are utterly sinful in all parts. And even when we are "good" it does not measure up to God's Holy standard. The Law condemns us all, we all stand guilty before God. And that's where Christ and Grace come in with healing in His Wings.

Calvinists, (am not a calvinist) believe the Gospel and Spirit are sufficient to save, but believe in a general call and an effectual call. And in irresistable grace. And that some are saved and drawn with irresistable grace and others are passed over.

I believe in an external call, the Gospel, and an Divine call, the Spirit, that work together. But I believe that Grace is freely and truly offered to all who hear the Gospel, but that Grace can be resisted. That is one of the points where I differ with Calvinist.

My position leaves me with both Calvinists and modern Arminians disagreeing with me, but it is what it is


This is just my two cents. I don't want to debate anyone on it, because it is rarely fruitful
Grace cannot be resisted.

Once a person sees the Truth they can't un-see it.

After seeing that Truth you have no choice but to act on that Truth. You can't act on something that you know is false from the start.


There is obviously a difference between intellectual assent of grace and actual Experiencing of Grace.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
Its pretty easy to look at your thoughts and actions before Christ and then look at your thoughts and actions after coming to Christ.

Then read the scripture and see what happened and why.
Total depravity has never been about how bad a man can be, but how God sees the natural man. People see themselves as - OK, not so bad, not as bad as other people, or.......wonder of wonders.......good.
Truly the blind 'seeing' other blind people.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
First, you have to understand what Atonement means.

Once you have a handle on that then you look at these scriptures;

John 3:18-19
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

If the whole world means every single living soul that was ever born and ever will be born in 1 John 2:2 then how can condemnation even be brought up? If every single person is atoned for then there can't be condemnation.

So it IS God that put a limit on the Atonement. And He did it in John 3. Only Believers in Christ are not condemned and therefore Atoned for.

That doesn't seem overly complicated, does it??
another good word to understand is PROPITIATION
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,680
7,737
113
I had asked what you would do with 1 Peter 1:3
I had asked if you disagreed with the SCRIPTURE I had posted on the depravity of man
I had asked if you agreed that God IS sovereign

asked you several times in back posts what your defiinition of each of the docrines of grace are. (TULIP)

answer or not, you are not under obligation to me,......nor I to you.
1. Maybe you did ask, i went through the whole thread and never saw you ask ME these questions, they questions you did ask, i answered

2. Even if you did, questions which you asked AFTER i asked you to show me where in history the events spoken of by the prophet occured.

So in other words, do what you demand, not what you practice.

You answer mine first, it has been fat too long, especially after you mocked me, then after all the mocking, could not answer

IF your answer is i can not show you that is at least an answer.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
1,978
113
Atonement is either applied to all (universalism)
or its applied to some (limited in what it accomplishes, but not limited in the sense that it is INCAPABLE of atoning for everyone's sins, we know God could set it up as He pleases)
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
Propitiation, to satisfy Gods wrath, a means of appeasieing or making atonement.

As scripture says, he was made the propitiation for our sins, but not only ours, the WHOLE WORLD.
World = 2889= KOSMOS = orderly arrangement, decoration,

ONLY BY IMPLICATION (meaning, the text determines the exact meaning) the world in the wide OR narrow sense, includes the inhabitants.

Ie: the wide sense would be the entire world…….the narrow sense would be a certain group of people

“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you, If you were of the world, the world would love it’s own; but you are NOT of the world, but I CHOSE you OUT OF THE WORLD, therefore the world hates you.”

John 15: 18-19

The Intercession of Christ for His beloved at the Last Supper
“ I ask on their (the disciples) behalf, I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom THOU HAST GIVEN ME; for THEY ARE THINE”
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
1. Maybe you did ask, i went through the whole thread and never saw you ask ME these questions, they questions you did ask, i answered

2. Even if you did, questions which you asked AFTER i asked you to show me where in history the events spoken of by the prophet occured.

So in other words, do what you demand, not what you practice.

You answer mine first, it has been fat too long, especially after you mocked me, then after all the mocking, could not answer

IF your answer is i can not show you that is at least an answer.
Refresh my memory, I will try to give you an answer whether you agree or not........and probably not.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
311
83
to the whom it may concern -
When non-grace believers post their skewed view of the TULIP, I have no doubt they know NOT what they are posting about, they are imitating what someone else has said. Might consider that before you make yourself look foolish.
 
Mar 14, 2011
60,680
7,737
113
World = 2889= KOSMOS = orderly arrangement, decoration,

ONLY BY IMPLICATION (meaning, the text determines the exact meaning) the world in the wide OR narrow sense, includes the inhabitants.

Ie: the wide sense would be the entire world…….the narrow sense would be a certain group of people

“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you, If you were of the world, the world would love it’s own; but you are NOT of the world, but I CHOSE you OUT OF THE WORLD, therefore the world hates you.”

John 15: 18-19

The Intercession of Christ for His beloved at the Last Supper
“ I ask on their (the disciples) behalf, I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom THOU HAST GIVEN ME; for THEY ARE THINE”
Nice idea, i disagree, world means world, the kosmos system, he told the church to go into the world to save people out of the wold, he made propitiation for the world that whoever believes in him may be saved.

Thans for at least answering, got an answer for my other question yet?