Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

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JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
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Being justified yes, Messiah has become of no effect, but not following,

You say Yahweh's Law and faith in Messiah is like oil and water, but the Scripture do not say this:

New International Version
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

New Living Translation
This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

English Standard Version
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

New American Standard Bible
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

King James Bible
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This demands the perseverance of the saints, who keep God's commands and their faith in Jesus."

International Standard Version
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus:

NET Bible
This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints--those who obey God's commandments and hold to their faith in Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Here is the patience of The Holy Ones, those who keep the commands of God and the faith of Yeshua.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In this situation God's holy people, who obey his commands and keep their faith in Jesus, need endurance.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

King James 2000 Bible
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

American King James Version
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

American Standard Version
Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Darby Bible Translation
Here is the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

English Revised Version
Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Webster's Bible Translation
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Weymouth New Testament
Here is an opportunity for endurance on the part of God's people, who carefully keep His commandments and the faith of Jesus!"

World English Bible
Here is the patience of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Young's Literal Translation
Here is endurance of the saints: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'


In error, you define the commandments of God universally as the Sinaitic Covenant.

The Scriptures are clear: God's commandments after the Cross are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

And love fulfills the Law:


10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (from Rom. 13)

-JGIG
GITQ
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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In error, you define the commandments of God universally as the Sinaitic Covenant.

The Scriptures are clear: God's commandments after the Cross are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

And love fulfills the Law:


10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (from Rom. 13)

-JGIG
GITQ
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Have heaven and earth passed? I will wait while you look out the window......

Have all things been perfected? No? Still sin and death in the world?

According to Messiah nothing has passed from the Law.

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

love:
1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Yahshua says these are the greatest Commandments, NOT THE ONLY! If that werent enough He clearly states all the Law hang on these 2.

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Shaul clearly understands what the Messiah means and explains it here:

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

All as in even the ones he didn't list...

Try breaking Leviticus 19:17 and still be loving your neighbor according to Messiah.

And try breaking the 4th Commandment and still be loving Yahweh.

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Mattithyah 19:17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. you shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your father and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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And love fulfills the Law:


10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (from Rom. 13)

-JGIG
GITQ
Is it ok to read the verse before this one?

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
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Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Have heaven and earth passed? I will wait while you look out the window......

Have all things been perfected? No? Still sin and death in the world?

According to Messiah nothing has passed from the Law.
No, but I have, in Christ:

19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Gal. 2)

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Rom. 7)

And in Christ, we are perfected:


[SUP]11 [/SUP]Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Heb. 10)​


-JGIG
“Practical Holiness” – Your Fast-Track for Setting Aside Grace…





 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63

In error, you define the commandments of God universally as the Sinaitic Covenant.

The Scriptures are clear: God's commandments after the Cross are:

23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)

And love fulfills the Law:


10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (from Rom. 13)

-JGIG
GITQ
Is it ok to read the verse before this one?

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."
Sure - let's do, and after, too:

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.


Clothe yourself in Law? Nope.

Grace and peace to you, H. It's wee hours where I am and I'm signing off
.

-JGIG
How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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No, but I have, in Christ:
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Gal. 2)

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (Rom. 7)

And in Christ, we are perfected:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [SUP]12 [/SUP]But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Heb. 10)​


-JGIG
“Practical Holiness” – Your Fast-Track for Setting Aside Grace…
I agree we are justified and cleansed by the blood of Yahshua, but why fight against Yahweh;s Instruction?

I personally enjoy it, I love it! and regrdless of justification or not, I want to do what makes Him joyful!

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

and since nothing has passed from the Law I dont pick and choose or have to try to figure out which is still valid, Messiah says they all are!

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Have heaven and earth passed? I will wait while you look out the window......

Have all things been perfected? No? Still sin and death in the world?

According to Messiah nothing has passed from the Law.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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I get the feeling that many want a Messiah and a religion in which they dont have to change and they can still fornicate with the world and yet have comfort all is well.
 

JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
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I agree we are justified and cleansed by the blood of Yahshua, but why fight against Yahweh;s Instruction?

I personally enjoy it, I love it! and regrdless of justification or not, I want to do what makes Him joyful!

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

and since nothing has passed from the Law I dont pick and choose or have to try to figure out which is still valid, Messiah says they all are!

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Have heaven and earth passed? I will wait while you look out the window......

Have all things been perfected? No? Still sin and death in the world?

According to Messiah nothing has passed from the Law.
I don't think you're actually reading anything I'm writing. The Law has not passed, those in Christ have died to the Law (Rom. 7).





Nighty night.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Sure - let's do, and after, too:

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.


Clothe yourself in Law? Nope.

Grace and peace to you, H. It's wee hours where I am and I'm signing off
.

-JGIG
How I Became Aware of the Hebrew Roots Movement
so the things Shaul say we should not do you know are against the Law of Yahweh right?

and the things he says are summed up in love your neigbor are literally Yahweh's Law.

but somehow Yahweh;s Law error?

Isayah 5:20, "Woe to those who call evil righteous, and righteous evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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I don't think you're actually reading anything I'm writing. The Law has not passed, those in Christ have died to the Law (Rom. 7).

Nighty night.
You are cherry picking verse that the verse right before it says to follow a list of Commandments and you say this means no Law?

You say Romans 7 says we are edad to the Law of Yahweh?

Now I know you have no clue what Shauls writings mean.

Romans 8:2 "Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death."

Your free from the Law!

right?

no, the law of sin and death is the ways of the world.

Romans 7:12-14, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous. Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful. For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

ACCORDING to SCRIPTURE, those who can not subject themselves to Yahweh's Law are walking in the flesh:

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Yeremyah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"

If left up to man, man will say they love but it will be a twisted worldly version, not true love.

No, love is only what Yahweh says it is, anything less is falsehood.

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."
 
D

Dkfp

Guest
I don't know if I would call it a cult but it's definitely works of the law. I have done a lot of independent study because of a friend who is deeply involved, so much she doesn't go to church anywhere anymore. She says she's free but she also thinks every believer should follow the feasts and sabbaths or you're not pleasing to God. They even say that Paul really went to Jews in dispersion not to Gentiles and that he really wrote in Hebrew (no proof of that) read Romans 10 and Galatians 2 and Colossians. Hebrew roots people say that Paul taught Torah law, which are shadows of what Christ did. They twist scriptures to bring people under law.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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I don't know if I would call it a cult but it's definitely works of the law. I have done a lot of independent study because of a friend who is deeply involved, so much she doesn't go to church anywhere anymore. She says she's free but she also thinks every believer should follow the feasts and sabbaths or you're not pleasing to God. They even say that Paul really went to Jews in dispersion not to Gentiles and that he really wrote in Hebrew (no proof of that) read Romans 10 and Galatians 2 and Colossians. Hebrew roots people say that Paul taught Torah law, which are shadows of what Christ did. They twist scriptures to bring people under law.
It all works together. The feast, however, are not ordained for us to please God, it is the opposite for our edification, and joy in recognizing God's perfection. As far as Paul was concerned, your friend isn't far off because of what he (Paul) said after he was arrested for teaching things contrary to the false, man made doctrines of the Pharisees, and their self righeousness.

Acts 24:10-14
10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak , answered , Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself: 11 Because that thou mayest understand , that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship . 12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people , neither in the synagogues, nor in the city: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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In my opinion, and we all have them, any theology based claiming its base as the Word, be it the Tanakh or both the Tanakh and the New Testament (Brit Hadasha), and requiring a title is somewhat cult tainted. This includes all Jewish and all Christian named theologies.

People throw around the word cult not realizing that the majority of the Christian and Jewish world is brainwashed by the thinking of men in place of receiving understanding from the Holy Spirit. Some love to call people who recognize their faith as the faith of Abraham a cult, yet Yeshua not only made reference to this faith (theology if you will), but also likened believers, true believers, to sons of Abraham.

No one human will ever be able to explain all of the Word to another, and any who may make this claim should be automatically suspect. The key to sharing and understanding and allowing is the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is present you will sense the Love of Yahweh, that is you will actually feel it surrounding you.

Meanwhile it is not useful to concern oneself with any one named theology as a cult, since there are brethren in just about all of them, though they wonder sometimes why many of their fellows do not seem to share the joy they do.

Read the Word, believe the Word, and worship God. Hold in your heart, as did Mary, those many things not yet given you to understand, for all will be revealed come the Kingdom. Be content, be joyous you are saved and you know Jesus, Yeshua. Both of those names will actually translate to English as Salvation. He is Salvation, praise God, amen.
 
D

danschance

Guest
I don't know if I would call it a cult but it's definitely works of the law. I have done a lot of independent study because of a friend who is deeply involved, so much she doesn't go to church anywhere anymore. She says she's free but she also thinks every believer should follow the feasts and sabbaths or you're not pleasing to God. They even say that Paul really went to Jews in dispersion not to Gentiles and that he really wrote in Hebrew (no proof of that) read Romans 10 and Galatians 2 and Colossians. Hebrew roots people say that Paul taught Torah law, which are shadows of what Christ did. They twist scriptures to bring people under law.
The HRM is a threat to one's salvation, depending on how deep they go down that rabbit hole. For one, they get wrapped up into thinking the Mosaic laws are valid and even start to act like Jews by engaging in Jewish activities. To them it seems fun and exiting as they have discovered a new way to express their faith. However, I believe it to be a demonic stronghold and here is why:
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal 5:4
Those who feel they are being justified by the Mosaic laws, can loose the one thing of infinite value, their salvation. This should terrify those who Keep the Mosaic laws. They are severed from Christ.

If being severed from Christ is not scary enough, some take it to a much deeper level. Some start identifying more with Judaism than Christianity. They toss out Jewish names for Jesus and other terms. They join a messianic congregation, hang a mezuzuah on their door frames, pray with a talit and own a nice menorah. They literally pretend to be more Jew than Christian! We have a young lady who occasionally hangs out in the bible study room. Her profile says she is a "Non=Christian". She preaches we must obey the Mosaic laws and read the Old Testament much more than the New Testament. She obeys all Jewish holidays and the Sabbath and eats a kosher diet. She is for all practical purposes a Jew who believes "Yeshah" is her messiah.

This is even a worse danger. Some in the HRM get so involved with it they start identifying with being a Jew or more accurately a "pretend Jew". Some loose their Christian identity and literally become Jewish. We had a man teach and preach (until he was banned) that the New testament is inaccurate and can not be trusted. The Greek is inferior to Hebrew. He also claimed we must obey the Mosaic laws, observe Jewish holidays and eat Kosher only. He did believe that "Yeshua" is the messiah, but only from the lens of the OT. He was far, far more a Jew than a Christian.

Some get so deep in the HRM that they actually deny Jesus is the Messiah and the NT. They literally join a Jewish congregation and become a Jew. While this no longer defines a person by HRM, it is the last stop for some who started their journey in the HRM.
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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Trying to be justified by the Law and keeping it because it is commanded are two different things.

Most are not followers of Messiah but followers of their misunderstanding of Paul.

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

Yahchanan 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Mattithyah 19-17-21, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh. He then asked Yahshua; Which ones? Yahshua said: You shall not murder. You shall not ccommit adultery. You shall not dsteal. You shall not bear false testimony. Honor your efather and mother, and; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him; All these things I have kept from my youth up; what do I yet lack? Yahshua said to him: If you want to come to the perfection of Yahweh, go and sell of what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and you will be walking in Yahweh's ways, and following Me."

Mattithyah 5:20-30, ""For I say to you: Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will certainly not enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment; But I say to you: Whoever is angry with his brother will be in danger of the judgment! Again, anyone who says; Raca! insulting your brother, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, but whoever says: Nabel! desiring them to fall away, will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you; Leave your gift there before the altar, and go first and be reconciled with your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle a controversy with your accuser quickly, before he gets you into court; or your adversary may deliver you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be put into prison. Truly I say to you: You will never come out of there until you have paid the last penny. You have heard that it was said by the people of ancient times: You shall not commit adultery; But I say to you: Whoever looks on a woman with lust for her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your right eye causes you to offend; sin, gouge it out and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna. Or if your right hand causes you to offend, cut it off and throw it from you! For it is better for you that one of your members perish, than for the whole body to be cast into Gehenna."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Mark 13:22-23, "For false messiahs and false prophets will rise, and will produce signs and wonders to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect. So be on your guard! Behold I have warned you of all things beforehand!"

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

Mattithyah 16:27, “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His Malakim; and then He will reward every man according to his works.”

Mattithyah 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."
 
D

danschance

Guest
Trying to be justified by the Law and keeping it because it is commanded are two different things.

Most are not followers of Messiah but followers of their misunderstanding of Paul.
If you keep the laws which Christ fulfilled, are you not justified by them?

You seem fond of Strong's and here is what Strong's defines "Justified" as:
Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

I have had some in the HRM claim Paul's writings are not inspired. You claim we don't understand them, but it is a very jarring statement to claim we don't follow Jesus. I would never make that charge against anyone who claims to be a Christian.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,057
262
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If you keep the laws which Christ fullfilled, are you not justified by them?
No. Justification is your salvation. I am saved by grace. I keep the laws out of responsive obedience. My obedience or lack thereof have no bearing on my salvation.

There are some who might say obedience is directly related to salvation, and I have known some. But it doesn't mean that is the majority.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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The Hebrew Roots Movement was started when scholars began studying what the deep sea scrolls dug up. It is bridging the gap in understanding of the people God used in the OT to explain His principles so we can understand them better. People are taking off from that in all directions, some false. But God is behind the basic idea and those against it are against God.

There are all kinds of ridiculous and half backed ideas coming out, all of them half truths. "died to the law" "free from the law" "don't clothe yourself in the law" "they are trying to bring people under the law".

No one is trying to go to the word, all the word, to find out what the word "law" means in spiritual language. To top it off, when it was explained that teaching gospel is not teaching law, that truth was made to say law was not of God.

The entire thing is a pig in a poke, and meant to cover up truth.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
If you keep the laws which Christ fullfilled, are you not justified by them?

Youseem fond of Strong's and here is what Strong's defines "Justified" as:



I have had some in the HRM claim Paul's writings are not inspired. You claim we don't understand them, but it is a very jarring statement to claim we don't follow Jesus. I would never make that charge against anyone who claims to be a Christian.
It dosent matter to me what some people claim about this or that, I have clearly stated my stance, so mentioning what some people believe about Paul is what I believe an attempt at guilt by association...

And yes I would say none of us have 100% grip on Paul's writings, they were letters written to certian people/groups of people, if we dont TRULY know all the issues of said people we CAN NOT 100% understand specific tailored messages to specific people. That is not to say we cant still get the large majority of what he was saying.

As far as yourself in particular, you continually misuse his writings.

Remember when you found the "end of the Law" verse, totally misused it because you were decieved by false translation:

Romans 10:4

New Living Translation
For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

English Standard Version
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

New American Standard Bible
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

King James Bible
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Yahshua is the ultimate result of keeping the Law unto righteousness for everyone who believes.

OK, here are a three places it is translated as end...

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So, faith has come to an end. It is done away with.

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

GOAL....GOAL

A disciple of Messiah does what the Messiah says,anyone claiming the Law is abolished, done away, or fulfilled so it is no longer to be followed is not doing what the Messiah said.

Lets break this down

Mattithyah 5:17, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."

First off twice in this one verse Yahshua says He “did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets.”

He said He came to “fulfill them.”

Lets let scripture interpret scripture –

Yahshua knew satan would beguile many into a false interpretation of these words of His, this is why HE said IN THE NEXT SENTENCE:

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Has "heaven and earth passed away?".......A quick look out the window shows us no heaven and earth did not pass away.

Have "all things been perfected?".........Still sin and death in the world, so no all things have not been perfected.

So there are 2 things that Messiah says will happen before ANYTHING is taken from Yahweh's Law...NEITHER has happened.

Acts 3:18, “But those things which Yahweh foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that the Messiah must suffer, He has fulfilled this.”

Mattithyah 1:21-23, “And she will give birth to a Son and you will call His Name YAHSHUA; (Yahweh is Salvation); for Yahweh will save His people from their sins. Now all this was done to fulfill what Yahweh had spoken through the prophet (Isayah 7:14), saying: Behold a virgin will conceive, and bear a Son, and will bring forth the sign IMMANUYAH-which means that Yahweh Of Hosts Is With Us.

Matt 2:15, “And remained there until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what Yahweh had spoken by the prophet (Hosheyah 11:1) saying: from Egypt I have called My Son.”

Matt 2:17, “Then what was spoken by Yeremayh (Jeremiah 31:15) the prophet was fulfilled; a voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were no more.”

Matt 2:23, “And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophets (Zecharyah 3:8 & 6:12); He will be called a Nazarene.”

Matt 4:14-16, “To fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isayah (9:1-2), saying; the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, by the way of the sea, beyond Yardan, in Galilee of the Gentiles; the people who walked in darkness have seen a great Light; they who dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them the Light has shined.”

Matt 8:17, “This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isayah (53:5), saying: He was bruised for our iniquities, and by His stripes we are healed.”

Matt 12:17-20, “That it would be fulfilled what was spoken through Isayah (42:1-3) the prophet, saying: Behold! My Servant Whom I have chosen! My Elect One in Whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He will not cry, nor lift up His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; until He brings forth judgment in truth.”

Matt 13:14-15, “And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isayah (6:9-10), which says: you will hear without ceasing, but you will not understand. You will see without ceasing, but you will not perceive . Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, or they will see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and healed.”

Matt 13:35, “ That it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet (Psalm 78:2) saying: I will open My mouth in a parable. I will utter dark sayings-which have been kept secret since the foundation of the world.”

Matt 21:4-5, “All this was done to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet (Zecharyah 9:9), saying: rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout for joy, O daughter of Yerusalem! Behold, your King comes to you. He is just and lowly, and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”

Matt 26:53-56, “Do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, Who at once would give Me more than twelve legions of malakim? But then, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that all this must be so? At that same time, Yahshua said to the multitudes; have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you teaching in the sacred precincts, and you did not arrest Me. But all this has been done, so that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples abandoned Him, and fled.”

Matt 27:9-10, “Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Zecharyah (11:12-13) the prophet, saying: so they weighed for My price thirty pieces of silver, that considerable price that I was valued by them whom they of the children of Israyl had agreed to pay, and used them for the Potter’s Field, as Yahweh had appointed Me.”

Matt 27:35, “They nailed Him to a stake, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet (Psalm 22:18): they divide My garments among them, and for My tallit they cast lots.”

Mark 14:49, 15:28, Luke 1:20, 4:21, 21:22, 21:32, 24:44, Yach (Jn) 12:38-41), 13:18, 15:25, 17:12, 18:9, 18:32, 19:24, 19:24, 19:36
All these are amazing prophecies that our Messiah fulfilled.

Mattithyah 5:17, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them." – First off twice in this one verse Yahshua says He “did not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets.” He said He came to “fulfill them.”

But has Messiah fulfilled all the Law and Prophets?

Are all the Feast days fulfilled? Are all the endtime prophecies fulfilled? Has Messiah fulfilled the prophecy of His return?

If you can find one single verse where Messiah says not to follow Yahweh's Law I will never speak it again.