Is the Jewish God and gentile God the same?

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G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#81
Jun 24, 2011
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#81
Guojing said:
Was he cursed when he lied then?
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I've thought about this and wondered how come Abraham wasn't punished for his lies.

But then I kind of realized, Abraham didn't lie. He just led people into a different truth.

Sarah WAS his sister. He SHOULD have told people that she was his wife too. But he withheld that information for fear of death.

So Abraham didn't lie but he wasn't 100% up front either. Its not what WE would consider righteous. But did God consider it unrighteous?


Not to throw a wrench in the point you were making. I actually thought it was a good one...
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

Well-known member
#82
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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#82
Grandpa said:
I've thought about this and wondered how come Abraham wasn't punished for his lies.

But then I kind of realized, Abraham didn't lie. He just led people into a different truth.

Sarah WAS his sister. He SHOULD have told people that she was his wife too. But he withheld that information for fear of death.

So Abraham didn't lie but he wasn't 100% up front either. Its not what WE would consider righteous. But did God consider it unrighteous?


Not to throw a wrench in the point you were making. I actually thought it was a good one...
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Not telling the truth can be a good thing sometimes. We see this in Scripture and in real life. Sounds controversial but here is a real life example:

You are living in nazi germany, jews are hiding in your house. The SS comes to your door and asks if you have any idea where these jews are, if you say no, you lie to them, but its a great thing. If you say yes, you tell the truth, but you are HELPING evil and costing life. which is way worse than the other option.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#83
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#83
Hevosmies said:
Not telling the truth can be a good thing sometimes. We see this in Scripture and in real life. Sounds controversial but here is a real life example:

You are living in nazi germany, jews are hiding in your house. The SS comes to your door and asks if you have any idea where these jews are, if you say no, you lie to them, but its a great thing. If you say yes, you tell the truth, but you are HELPING evil and costing life. which is way worse than the other option.
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You could say no, you don't know where they are, because they could be anywhere inside your house and then you wouldn't "exactly" be lying.

Then you would be kind of in the same "grey area" Abraham was in. Not the whole truth but not a lie either. Leaving out some important facts.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#84
Jan 12, 2019
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#84
Sipsey said:
Are you saying you are under a covenant which requires “nothing” on your part
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Your job is simply to believe and receive, like Abraham did.

After that, your part is simply to renew your mind to the truth of his grace everyday. A covenant that requires anything on your part, to receive blessings, will be an insult to Jesus's finished work on the cross.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#85
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#85
Grandpa said:
I've thought about this and wondered how come Abraham wasn't punished for his lies.

But then I kind of realized, Abraham didn't lie. He just led people into a different truth.

Sarah WAS his sister. He SHOULD have told people that she was his wife too. But he withheld that information for fear of death.

So Abraham didn't lie but he wasn't 100% up front either. Its not what WE would consider righteous. But did God consider it unrighteous?
Click to expand...
Your point reminded me of the Mormons who also tried very hard to justify Abraham's actions, to the extreme where they even introduced a new book called the Book of Abraham saying that God told Abraham to lie :) Abraham Chapter 2:22-24

Take note that, under the law, marrying a relation like your sister is also an abomination. And Abraham lied TWICE about this wife being his sister.

Jesus, while he was on Earth, brought to the law to its pristine state by his many "But I tell you", so if you want to bring the law down to something that you can keep like the Pharisees then, you are most free to do so.

For me, I rather live under grace where I am dead to the Law, to be married to Christ where blessings come to me because of his obedience and not mine.
 
S

Sipsey

Well-known member
#86
Sep 27, 2018
1,357
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#86
Guojing said:
Your job is simply to believe and receive, like Abraham did.

After that, your part is simply to renew your mind to the truth of his grace everyday. A covenant that requires anything on your part, to receive blessings, will be an insult to Jesus's finished work on the cross.
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“If” believing & receiving are a requirement on our part, then the covenant is “conditional.” If “nothing” is required then that is indeed an “unconditional “ covenant and that’s what’s generally referred to as “universalism” and no faith is even required.

I agree with the rest of your post, and I do agree very little is required on our part, other than “believing.”

As Jesus responded when asked by a group, “what might they do to do the works of God, He said, believe on the one He sent.”

It doesn’t get any easier than that! Yet many stumble with that simple requirement.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#87
Jan 12, 2019
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#87
Sipsey said:
As Jesus responded when asked by a group, “what might they do to do the works of God, He said, believe on the one He sent.”

It doesn’t get any easier than that! Yet many stumble with that simple requirement.
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Yes, there are many who insist that work is required to be saved, to be blessed, etc. Paul talked about the Jews in Romans 10

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#88
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#88
Truth is Truth -
A lie is a lie -
When The Holy Spirit
Tells you to keep your mouth shut,
Then keep your mouth shut...
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#89
Dec 6, 2016
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#89
Grandpa said:
There are lots of examples of Gods Grace in the OT.

I'm just not aware of any scriptures that expressly say that Salvation is by Grace in the OT.
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Salvation has always been through Christ, given by God's grace based on our faith. Before Christ God had ordained that we are saved through Christ and God counted the death on the cross as already happened. God's time is eternal time.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#90
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#90
Guojing said:
Yes, there are many who insist that work is required to be saved, to be blessed, etc. Paul talked about the Jews in Romans 10

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes..”
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The only ones saying God looks at our works for His grace are those preaching to not work for the Lord. They love to say how they are so much holier than the people who try to obey. They know we all fail, so usually in their finger pointing they include the ones trying are failing.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#91
Dec 27, 2018
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#91
Guojing said:
Was he cursed when he lied then?
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Guojing said:
My point is that you cannot have it both ways.

If you claim that Abraham was blessed because of his obedience, then when he disobey, curses will have to follow. That is how the Law works. Deut 28 and Galatians 3 has the scriptures for it. Are you sure you want to be under it?

No, he was blessed because he was under the same unconditional covenant as us, that is by grace. God promised to bless him because God is good.

Even if he "sinned", which he did when he lied, that sin is not imputed to him, because he is not under law, Romans 5:13.
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How is a sinner blessed when he keeps one of the ten commandments? Temporally, in time, in this life, (because the commandments are good)but not in the one to come, unless He comes to faith. How is a believer punished if in an action (not a lifestyle, we're not going there) he disobeys God? Temporally, in time, in this life, and perhaps may suffer loss of reward, depending on the outcome of his sin.

But we confess our sins, not to be saved again, but to restore broken fellowship and to keep our conscience clear and nothing between us and God as far as FELLOWSHIP
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#92
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#92
Blik said:
Salvation has always been through Christ, given by God's grace based on our faith. Before Christ God had ordained that we are saved through Christ and God counted the death on the cross as already happened. God's time is eternal time.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
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Yes.

But there are no OT scriptures that I am aware of that say Salvation is by Grace through Christ.

If you can find any please post them.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#93
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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113
#93
Guojing said:
Your point reminded me of the Mormons who also tried very hard to justify Abraham's actions, to the extreme where they even introduced a new book called the Book of Abraham saying that God told Abraham to lie :) Abraham Chapter 2:22-24

Take note that, under the law, marrying a relation like your sister is also an abomination. And Abraham lied TWICE about this wife being his sister.

Jesus, while he was on Earth, brought to the law to its pristine state by his many "But I tell you", so if you want to bring the law down to something that you can keep like the Pharisees then, you are most free to do so.

For me, I rather live under grace where I am dead to the Law, to be married to Christ where blessings come to me because of his obedience and not mine.
Click to expand...
You don't think there is a difference between telling a lie and not telling the whole truth?

I'm not Mormon and I don't advocate working at a law that I know I can't keep.

I don't view Abraham as doing the right thing when he said Sarah was his sister. But I don't think it was a lie. I seem to remember Abraham and Sarah had the same father but different mother. Isn't that right?

Its not exactly "loving your neighbor" but I'm still not convinced it was a lie. I don't think God told Abraham to be deceitful by leaving out pertinent information. Otherwise that would have been written.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#94
Dec 6, 2016
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#94
Grandpa said:
Yes.

But there are no OT scriptures that I am aware of that say Salvation is by Grace through Christ.

If you can find any please post them.
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The OT is God given understanding but uses the mind of the culture they the mind of the men who wrote them down, minds of that time and culture. They were not told of Christ yet, how could these people write down a name unless God gave them that name? To them it was a mystery that you and I are given the answer to, to them they took the blood of Christ to use based on their faith in God. God had them use innocent animal blood as an example. As James tells us to do, their faith was shown in their actions. They had faith in what God told them. We have faith in this blood based on what God tells us.

God is eternal, we are told that. God's plan for us, God's ways, God's attributes are the very same eternally. God's laws are the same eternally. The tides of the ocean tells us that--God created them and the tide tables of thousands of years reads the same. The tides ebb and flow follows such strict laws that future tables are always correct by following those laws.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#95
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#95
Blik said:
The OT is God given understanding but uses the mind of the culture they the mind of the men who wrote them down, minds of that time and culture. They were not told of Christ yet, how could these people write down a name unless God gave them that name? To them it was a mystery that you and I are given the answer to, to them they took the blood of Christ to use based on their faith in God. God had them use innocent animal blood as an example. As James tells us to do, their faith was shown in their actions. They had faith in what God told them. We have faith in this blood based on what God tells us.

God is eternal, we are told that. God's plan for us, God's ways, God's attributes are the very same eternally. God's laws are the same eternally. The tides of the ocean tells us that--God created them and the tide tables of thousands of years reads the same. The tides ebb and flow follows such strict laws that future tables are always correct by following those laws.
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OT

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

NT

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


What happened to these eternal ways, laws and plans?

Is righteousness just not important to God?

Or were those temporary laws and ways just a stepping stone to Christ and Christianity?
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#96
Dec 6, 2016
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#96
Grandpa said:
OT

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

NT

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


What happened to these eternal ways, laws and plans?

Is righteousness just not important to God?

Or were those temporary laws and ways just a stepping stone to Christ and Christianity?
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Based on these scriptures is it your conclusion that we have a new God, the old one is not to be listened to any more?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#97
Jan 12, 2019
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#97
Grandpa said:
You don't think there is a difference between telling a lie and not telling the whole truth?
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Before the Law and God, there is no difference. Anyway i have already said that marrying a sibling is already abomination so, as far as the Law is concerned, Abraham is a lawbreaker.

But you still miss my main point. Abraham was not under the Law of Moses because he lived before God gave it to Moses. That is why he was not punished, and even blessed, even though he "broke the Law". That is what life under the grace covenant is.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#98
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#98
Blik said:
Based on these scriptures is it your conclusion that we have a new God, the old one is not to be listened to any more?
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So you just don't want to answer? Too embarrassed?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#99
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#99
Guojing said:
Before the Law and God, there is no difference. Anyway i have already said that marrying a sibling is already abomination so, as far as the Law is concerned, Abraham is a lawbreaker.

But you still miss my main point. Abraham was not under the Law of Moses because he lived before God gave it to Moses. That is why he was not punished, and even blessed, even though he "broke the Law". That is what life under the grace covenant is.
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I mostly agree with you.

Except that the bible says that Abraham kept Gods statutes and laws. I'm NOT saying that is the law of Moses. Far from it.

I'm just saying that what Abraham did probably wasn't against God. Even though it seems like it should have been to us.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#100
Jun 30, 2015
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#100
Blik said:
Based on these scriptures is it your conclusion that we have a new God, the old one is not to be listened to any more?
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What a ridiculous thing to ask. Are you here for a mature discussion, or for childish bickering? Hopefully the former... so don't make silly and completely unfounded characterizations of the views of others.
 
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