Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
29,989
9,677
113
not even close

make up your minds...either grace is irresistable or the Holy Spirit draws people

do you not understand how the Holy Spirit works?

my post:

drawing is the work of the Holy Spirit

now ask yourself why the Holy Spirit would have to DRAW someone to Jesus if God had already decided His irresistable grace would suffice

you cannot reconcile TULIP with the truth of the gospel

and God is not giving out trophies for it either
'
maybe try to answer about what I referred to instead of trying to make it sound like I did not refer to scripture when I absolutely did

last time we had a little conversation, you stated you just want to talk about scripture ...so go for it

now is your chance :rolleyes:

Do you think the drawing that the Spirit performs is different than the drawing God does?

Seems to me that what the reformed doctrine is referring to when it talks about 'irresistible grace' is exactly that, the drawing of the Father.

That's why i think it's weird that you would ask why God would bother drawing people if His drawing always accomplishes His purpose - it sounds like you are asking why bother doing something if doing exactly that something is literally your intention. So your comment sounds nonsensical to me. God does as He wills and drawing His own to Himself is His will

You think it's something else? You think deformed doctrine isn't talking about an irresistible drawing of God when it talks about the irresistible drawing of God?
Can you point me to some reformed sources that say otherwise?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
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1 Cor 2: 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The passage in the context being in reference to the things not received by the natural man are things that God hath prepared to the believers. V9. These are foolishness unto him. But this does not teach that we are not to preach the Gospel to the lost. salvation is not in the context here but the deep things of God. Paul strived to preach the gospel not where Christ was named...and used plainness of speech as a demonstration of the Spirit and of power so the lost would understand and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the lost would response simply by faith.

Romans 15:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1 Corinthians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
You have given me scriptures of Paul preaching to the church at Corinth. When a person is newly reborn of the Spirit they are but babes in Christ and in need of being taught the fulness of the gospel. Isaiah 28:9 - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
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yet you defend Calvinism and say his way of viewing scripture is correct

well, Calvin is dead and the gospel is the same today as it was when it was written

you have made it plain you do not understand
What is so hard about understanding the concept of completing certain steps in order to gain salvation?

Its what the whole world thinks. Until they are Saved.

Some, even after they saved, apparently.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,822
2,431
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Do you think the drawing that the Spirit performs is different than the drawing God does?

Seems to me that what the reformed doctrine is referring to when it talks about 'irresistible grace' is exactly that, the drawing of the Father.

That's why i think it's weird that you would ask why God would bother drawing people if His drawing always accomplishes His purpose - it sounds like you are asking why bother doing something if doing exactly that something is literally your intention. So your comment sounds nonsensical to me. God does as He wills and drawing His own to Himself is His will

You think it's something else? You think deformed doctrine isn't talking about an irresistible drawing of God when it talks about the irresistible drawing of God?
Can you point me to some reformed sources that say otherwise?
The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit speak exactly what the Father instructs Him to speak. The Father's drawing is accomplished through the Holy Spirit. There is no distinction between the Father drawing and the Holy Spirit drawing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
14,822
2,431
113
What is so hard about understanding the concept of completing certain steps in order to gain salvation?

Its what the whole world thinks. Until they are Saved.

Some, even after they saved, apparently.
Well the Philippian jailer asked this question of the apostles. What must I do to be saved? The answer was simply believe and if that is a completion of certain steps then is was taught by the apostles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
113
NO, no, no, no, no!

That is not what Calvinism teaches! Calvinism teaches GOD CHOSE THE CALVINIST!
That's what the bible teaches.

Calvinism happens to agree.


But you are right. No one worships God unless they were chosen by God to do so.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,709
2,652
113
Well the Philippian jailer asked this question of the apostles. What must I do to be saved? The answer was simply believe and if that is a completion of certain steps then is was taught by the apostles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yep. See how easy that is?

What's not to understand?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Do you think the drawing that the Spirit performs is different than the drawing God does?

Seems to me that what the reformed doctrine is referring to when it talks about 'irresistible grace' is exactly that, the drawing of the Father.

That's why i think it's weird that you would ask why God would bother drawing people if His drawing always accomplishes His purpose - it sounds like you are asking why bother doing something if doing exactly that something is literally your intention. So your comment sounds nonsensical to me. God does as He wills and drawing His own to Himself is His will

You think it's something else? You think deformed doctrine isn't talking about an irresistible drawing of God when it talks about the irresistible drawing of God?
Can you point me to some reformed sources that say otherwise?

yeah ok

answering a question with questions is not an answer

if you think what I said is weird, then you do not understand what I posted

you are discussing reformed ... not scripture

our last conversation you just ignored questions I asked, got insulted because you stated we were discussing a person...that is myself and others, and left

I see this headed in the same direction

have a great day :)

and don't come back with I can't answer your questions because I most certainly have

it's the other way round
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit speak exactly what the Father instructs Him to speak. The Father's drawing is accomplished through the Holy Spirit. There is no distinction between the Father drawing and the Holy Spirit drawing.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
The fact remains that all he draws he will raise up at the last day, so if he draws all mankind, then all mankind will be raised up at the last day. Is that what you believe?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
5,427
846
113
Well the Philippian jailer asked this question of the apostles. What must I do to be saved? The answer was simply believe and if that is a completion of certain steps then is was taught by the apostles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Saved according to Greek = delivered. There is an eternal deliverance and there is a timely deliverance. If you apply all salvation scriptures to eternal they will not harmonize. The natural man, before he has been born of the Spirit (saved eternally) cannot discern the things of the Spirit, therefore he cannot believe in spiritual things. Repenting and believing are products of already having been born of the Spirit. The Philippian Jailer was already born again and his heavenly home was secured. There is a timely deliverance in repenting and believing.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,695
2,128
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Saved according to Greek = delivered. There is an eternal deliverance and there is a timely deliverance. If you apply all salvation scriptures to eternal they will not harmonize. The natural man, before he has been born of the Spirit (saved eternally) cannot discern the things of the Spirit, therefore he cannot believe in spiritual things. Repenting and believing are products of already having been born of the Spirit. The Philippian Jailer was already born again and his heavenly home was secured. There is a timely deliverance in repenting and believing.
Can you post some scriptures with the word saved or salvation that do not harmonize if applying them to eternal deliverance?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
29,989
9,677
113
yeah ok

answering a question with questions is not an answer

if you think what I said is weird, then you do not understand what I posted

you are discussing reformed ... not scripture

our last conversation you just ignored questions I asked, got insulted because you stated we were discussing a person...that is myself and others, and left

I see this headed in the same direction

have a great day :)

and don't come back with I can't answer your questions because I most certainly have

it's the other way round
You asked why God would draw people if His drawing of people always accomplishes His intent.
I carefully explained why I think that's a weird, nonsensical thing to ask, and asked you to clarify.
You haven't yet. Instead you're backing away from any discussion and trying to make it sound like I'm the one being unreasonable.

You are talking about Reformed theology. You made a comment about it that doesn't make any sense to me. I asked you to explain it if you could. You refuse.

I also brought up several things in John 6 that directly bear on the topic. Because yes, I'm here to talk about scripture and hopefully to arrive at right doctrine from what it says.
Perhaps you are inclined to comment on that? I had several questions posted and a thousand more if I could get anyone to actually engage.

Thanks!
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,418
113
You asked why God would draw people if His drawing of people always accomplishes His intent.
I carefully explained why I think that's a weird, nonsensical thing to ask, and asked you to clarify.
You haven't yet. Instead you're backing away from any discussion and trying to make it sound like I'm the one being unreasonable.

You are talking about Reformed theology. You made a comment about it that doesn't make any sense to me. I asked you to explain it if you could. You refuse.

I also brought up several things in John 6 that directly bear on the topic. Because yes, I'm here to talk about scripture and for m doctrine from what it says.
Perhaps you are inclined to comment on that? I had several questions posted and a thousand more if I could get anyone to actually engage.

Thanks!
john 6 isnt about us. its about the disciples. later in the gospel of st.john Jesus said i have kept all who you have given to me. talking about disciples.

then now Jesus draws all people. titus 2:11.

you need to rightly divide the word of truth
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
You asked why God would draw people if His drawing of people always accomplishes His intent.
I carefully explained why I think that's a weird, nonsensical thing to ask, and asked you to clarify.
You haven't yet. Instead you're backing away from any discussion and trying to make it sound like I'm the one being unreasonable.

You are talking about Reformed theology. uh...that seems to be more what you are doing You made a comment about it that doesn't make any sense to me. I asked you to explain it if you could. You refuse.

I also brought up several things in John 6 that directly bear on the topic. Because yes, I'm here to talk about scripture and hopefully to arrive at right doctrine from what it says.
Perhaps you are inclined to comment on that? I had several questions posted and a thousand more if I could get anyone to actually engage.

Thanks!

you thought I was asking a question?

I was repeating what scripture states

how do you reconcile that FACT that God draws people yet the position you and some others seem to hold, states people are chosen to be saved and chosen to go to hell

1. drawing is not the same as irresistable grace

2. hell was not created for humans. it was created for the devil and his angels

perhaps you can actually try to address what I posted?


I don't care about your questions since you cannot address what I actually posted and have conceived of the notion I was asking questions when obviously I was making statements

I realize you want to make a point and are trying to lead me in that direction, but things don't work like that when a person can see you do this post after post

You are talking about Reformed theology. You made a comment about it that doesn't make any sense to me. I asked you to explain it if you could. You refuse.
uh...that seems to be more what you are doing. truly disingenuous response

I'm here to talk about scripture and hopefully to arrive at right doctrine from what it says.
exactly what you did last time and then left in a huff because you didn't get the results you wanted

too funny

listen...I am not going to have a repeat performance with you so perhaps bug someone else. I don't care

you already have a point and want to make it with those who disagree

been around that ole bush many times and read your posts on other threads

have a nice day
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
The fact remains that all he draws he will raise up at the last day, so if he draws all mankind, then all mankind will be raised up at the last day. Is that what you believe?

rinse and repeat

you have asked this exact same thing over and over

and we have stated that not everyone is saved so your above little ditty is still going to need more washing :giggle:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I hardly know what to say when a person continually asks questions and demands you answer them and tells you that you are refusing to co-operate with them

this is a method used to get the person fed up/angry/ defensive...etc etc

it's childish...especially when the person doing that twists what you say and hopes you won't notice

on the other hand, if this is the way they communicate, they need to have a redo or a course in communication because responding that way shuts people down and puts up walls
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,518
2,592
113
Spoiler alert: If you believe God knows the future you already believe in unconditional election. NEXT

There is no other alternative way for future to playout. Praise God He is in control!
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Of course, upon the inspiration of the Almighty, we understand things about salvation. Hearing the word and believing on Christ and his gospel upon the very conviction of the Holy Spirit is to be born again.
But can ppl in remote places who never heard of the Christ, can they be saved w/o ever hearing the word of God, never knowing the of the Christ?
 
I

IFOLLOWHIM

Guest
But can ppl in remote places who never heard of the Christ, can they be saved w/o ever hearing the word of God, never knowing the of the Christ?





Hmmmm..🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔 let us see what KIND of answer you get for this question!

Fasten your seat belts ...boys,it's gonna be a bumpy ride!😂😂😂😂😂😂