Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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I proved your pretrib theory wrong using your own supposed facts.
That is where you got derailed. Pre-Trib Rapture is not a theory. It is a Biblical event.

1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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I did not say anything about the length of the week. I was only speaking of verses in Revelation that is NOT the 70th week. Just so you will always know, the 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal starts the week, the 7th vial ends the week, and the midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet.

There are five mentions of the last half of the week, two given in months, two given in days and one given in times. Of course the week is 7 years, or 84 months or 2520 days.
I disagree. Biblically there is no good reason for your assertion. Chapters 6 through 18 constitute the seven years.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Sorry, but Rev. 4:1 is not the rapture. That is John being caught up to show us things in the future.
You are also mistaken about both the start and the end of the week. In chapters the week goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16.
And you also missed it with the marriage and supper, they come BEFORE His coming to Armageddon.
You're not paying attention. I said that by Rev 4:1.......the rapture has already occurred. The Church age is over ("after this") and the 24 Elders typifying the Church (kings and priests who now possess the crowns, thrones and white robes promised by Jesus in chapters 2&3) are now in Heaven glorifying Jesus.

Nothing could possibly be more clear than that. Revelation chapter 7 removes any confusion about the identity of these Elders.

I really don't know what all this debate is about. Nothing is more obvious than the pretrib rapture as described in the book of Revelation.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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If you don't understand that Daniels 70th week is precisely 7 years long, eschatologically you are up the creek without a paddle my friend.
The key is to see the first half of 7 years (which is 3 1/2 years) mentioned several times in Revelation 11-13. It is shown as 1260 days = 42 months = time (1 year) + times (2 years) + half a time (6 months).
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Correct. That is one aspect of the supper. But I'm sure it's a very long and drawn out affair. Perhaps extending into eternity......
Yup. Lots and lots of horse meat. :p
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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Correct. That is one aspect of the supper. But I'm sure it's a very long and drawn out affair. Perhaps extending into eternity......
On the other hand, after the marriage ceremony in heaven, the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place. People have BEEN THERE and seen the preparations: tables spread as far as the eye can see - and came back to life to tell what they saw. In Revelation the supper takes place before Jesus gets on the white horse.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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The key is to see the first half of 7 years (which is 3 1/2 years) mentioned several times in Revelation 11-13. It is shown as 1260 days = 42 months = time (1 year) + times (2 years) + half a time (6 months).
Sorry, you are mistaken. EVERY mention of the 3 1/2 year period of time, whether given in days or months or times, is for the last half of the week. How do I know? Because I understand John's chronology. God "marked" (His word not mine) the 70th week with sevens: the week begins with the 7th seal and ends with the 7th trumpet. The midpoint is marked with the 7th trumpet. Therefore the first 6 trumpets come in the first half of the week. Then all the mentions of the 1260 days, 42 months are for the last half.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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You're not paying attention. I said that by Rev 4:1.......the rapture has already occurred. The Church age is over ("after this") and the 24 Elders typifying the Church (kings and priests who now possess the crowns, thrones and white robes promised by Jesus in chapters 2&3) are now in Heaven glorifying Jesus.

Nothing could possibly be more clear than that. Revelation chapter 7 removes any confusion about the identity of these Elders.

I really don't know what all this debate is about. Nothing is more obvious than the pretrib rapture as described in the book of Revelation.
All this is a theory, just not the right theory.
You have the rapture before the 5th seal, which is an impossibility. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church and and they are waiting for that final church age martyr. In your theory, the martyrs will miss the rapture and therefore the marriage.

The true chronology is that the rapture, coming just before wrath, is just before the 6th seal start of God's wrath.

People have tried for years to time events by the elders - and they have been wrong. My guess is, those elders are part of the groups that Jesus raised when He raised as seen in Matthew 27. They are OT saints.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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You're not paying attention. I said that by Rev 4:1.......the rapture has already occurred. The Church age is over ("after this") and the 24 Elders typifying the Church (kings and priests who now possess the crowns, thrones and white robes promised by Jesus in chapters 2&3) are now in Heaven glorifying Jesus.

Nothing could possibly be more clear than that. Revelation chapter 7 removes any confusion about the identity of these Elders.

I really don't know what all this debate is about. Nothing is more obvious than the pretrib rapture as described in the book of Revelation.
Sorry, missed something: "after this" is only a transitional phrase used by John several times in Revelation. It only means that God changed directions in the vision.

Have you ever been to a play where they close the curtain between acts? What happens behind the curtain once it is closed? They rearrange the set to fit the next act. This is precisely what John does in chapter 7. He is rearranging the setting. You see, two events MUST take place before that 7th seal officially starts the 70th week: first, the 144,000 must be sealed, and second, the church must be seen safely in heaven.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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I disagree. Biblically there is no good reason for your assertion. Chapters 6 through 18 constitute the seven years.
You are pulling the first seal out of its 32 AD context. Anyone can make the bible say almost anything if they are willing to pull verses out of their context.

Here is part of the context:

Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Previous to this, Jesus was ABSENT from the throne room. And the Holy Spirit was still there IN the throne room. Chapters 4 & 5 tell us a story starting while Jesus was still on earth (or under the earth.) Then time passes, Jesus rose from the dead, was immediately found worthy, then ascends to heaven and sends the Holy Spirit down. All this around 32 AD. (And you imagined it was future!!!!)
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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...
Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture
The first part of this is accurate and dead on, hitting the nail squarely on the head, so to speak. Jesus WILL come after the tribulation.

The next phrase is HALF-TRUTH. The real rapture will certainly not be "secret."
There WILL BE many left behind: more left that will be taken. (Broad is the way...")
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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You are pulling the first seal out of its 32 AD context. Anyone can make the bible say almost anything if they are willing to pull verses out of their context.

Here is part of the context:

Rev. 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Previous to this, Jesus was ABSENT from the throne room. And the Holy Spirit was still there IN the throne room. Chapters 4 & 5 tell us a story starting while Jesus was still on earth (or under the earth.) Then time passes, Jesus rose from the dead, was immediately found worthy, then ascends to heaven and sends the Holy Spirit down. All this around 32 AD. (And you imagined it was future!!!!)
Oh a preterist........I see. No preterist I ever knew had the slightest idea of what they were talking about and neither do you. Sorry about your situation. Hopefully this thread will be a light to your path to understanding the real truth of Scripture, prophecy and eschatology.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Sorry, missed something: "after this" is only a transitional phrase used by John several times in Revelation. It only means that God changed directions in the vision.

Have you ever been to a play where they close the curtain between acts? What happens behind the curtain once it is closed? They rearrange the set to fit the next act. This is precisely what John does in chapter 7. He is rearranging the setting. You see, two events MUST take place before that 7th seal officially starts the 70th week: first, the 144,000 must be sealed, and second, the church must be seen safely in heaven.
You're completely mistaken about that. Your eschatology is a mess.

Properly we should start with Revelation 1:9 "Write the things what you have seen, and the things which are, and the things that will take place after this." (after the Church age Rev 2&3, after the rapture.) Revelation 4:1 is the demarcation point. The Church has been raptured and now resides in Heaven typified by the 24 Elders. These are now glorified kings and priests (see Revelation 1:6), who have crowns, thrones, and white robes precisely as promised by Jesus in Revelation 2 and 3. To identify these Elders as anything other than the Church is utterly absurd....it is the Church.....period end of story.

Furthermore, to be more precise, the term is "after these things". Revelation 4:1, 7:1, 7:9, 9:12, 15:5, 18:1, 19:1, 20:3.

Every instance it is used it is unquestionably a definitive chronology of time series events being played out.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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Oh a preterist........I see. No preterist I ever knew had the slightest idea of what they were talking about and neither do you. Sorry about your situation. Hopefully this thread will be a light to your path to understanding the real truth of Scripture, prophecy and eschatology.
I am NOT a preterist. The first seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book.
We are waiting for the final church age martyr and then the pretrib rapture will take place, which will trigger the start of the Day of the Lord. From there no, almost everything is future.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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You're completely mistaken about that. Your eschatology is a mess.

Properly we should start with Revelation 1:9 "Write the things what you have seen, and the things which are, and the things that will take place after this." (after the Church age Rev 2&3, after the rapture.) Revelation 4:1 is the demarcation point. The Church has been raptured and now resides in Heaven typified by the 24 Elders. These are now glorified kings and priests (see Revelation 1:6), who have crowns, thrones, and white robes precisely as promised by Jesus in Revelation 2 and 3. To identify these Elders as anything other than the Church is utterly absurd....it is the Church.....period end of story.

Furthermore, to be more precise, the term is "after these things". Revelation 4:1, 7:1, 7:9, 9:12, 15:5, 18:1, 19:1, 20:3.

Every instance it is used it is unquestionably a definitive chronology of time series events being played out.
You are adding to His word, imagining that John wrote the world ONLY there...ONLY "the things that will take place after this."

Sorry, but there is no only...it is only in your imagination. God left the door open to include some history if He chose, and He did choose. Don't put God in a "future only" box.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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It shouldn't take much to turn him into a pretribist, then. :giggle:
How could anyone with the ability to read be anything BUT a pretribber?

John saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7.
John started the 70th week with the 7th seal in chapter 8.
That is why I am PRE-trib.
 

lamad

Well-known member
Apr 14, 2021
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Oh a preterist........I see. No preterist I ever knew had the slightest idea of what they were talking about and neither do you. Sorry about your situation. Hopefully this thread will be a light to your path to understanding the real truth of Scripture, prophecy and eschatology.
What are you going to do with Rev. 5:6? Sweep it under the rug and forget it?
What are you going to do with Jesus NOT SEEN in the throne room in chapter 4?
What are you going to do with the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended (as shown in Rev. 5:6?
What are you going to do with Jesus NOT found worthy to take the book?

Will you just spiritualize or symbolize all that and in doing so, destroy the message God wanted to show us?
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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That is where you got derailed. Pre-Trib Rapture is not a theory. It is a Biblical event.

1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
What verse say pre trib rapture