Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Note that Matthew 24:42-44[45-51] is PARALLEL with Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44[45-48], which says, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347].
This is referring to His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time...
(i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom! and "WITH [G4862]" His "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"... not TO BE WED, at that point
)
...thus the "imminent / imminence" term is not being used in reference TO THIS ^ point in the chronology (as "pre-trib scholars" use the term). See again my post on the definition / explanation of the term "imminent / imminence" as pre-trib scholars use the term.
PARALLEL to Matt24:42-44[45-51]... note again v.36 of Luke 12:
This is referring to His Second Coming to the earth point-in-time...
(i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom! and "WITH [G4862]" His "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"... not TO BE WED, at that point
)...thus the "imminent / imminence" term is not being used in reference TO THIS ^ point in the chronology (as "pre-trib scholars" use the term). See again my post on the definition / explanation of the term "imminent / imminence" as pre-trib scholars use the term.
PARALLEL to Matt24:42-44[45-51]... note again v.36 of Luke 12:
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. the context;
Wedding supper clearly in heaven after the pretrib rapture.
You have that context left out
FreeGrace2 said:
I'm still waiting for one of the pretribbers to explain why the 2W missed getting their immortal bodies before the Trib and then will be killed IN the Trib.
Doesn't add up. Something stinks.
But you have "no doubt" without any evidence for that. So basically, you DO believe that Jesus leaves the 2W back in heaven while He takes everyone else with Him for their resurrection bodies then. All without any Scripture that says that.
And Acts 24:15 shows just 2 resurrections; one for the "righteous" or saved, which would be "those who belong to Him" per 1 Cor 15:23, and one for the "wicked" or unsaved.
So you are forced to split the believers' resurrection into a number of events, but the Bible never even suggests that.
This is rich. You make a claim without any evidence from Scripture and you claim that I have failed to study the Bible. Wow.
Why don't you study the Bible. For starters, there are NO verses that show Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
And, 2 Thess 2:1 plainly places the rapture (gathered to Him) WITH the Second Advent (coming of our Lord).
See? I HAVE evidence from Scripture.
No evidence that the 2W were LEFT BEHIND while everyone else in heaven goes and gets their immortal bodies.
No evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So, please tell me who has "failed to study the Bible" now.
I'm still waiting for one of the pretribbers to explain why the 2W missed getting their immortal bodies before the Trib and then will be killed IN the Trib.
Doesn't add up. Something stinks.
But you have "no doubt" without any evidence for that. So basically, you DO believe that Jesus leaves the 2W back in heaven while He takes everyone else with Him for their resurrection bodies then. All without any Scripture that says that.
And Acts 24:15 shows just 2 resurrections; one for the "righteous" or saved, which would be "those who belong to Him" per 1 Cor 15:23, and one for the "wicked" or unsaved.
So you are forced to split the believers' resurrection into a number of events, but the Bible never even suggests that.
This is rich. You make a claim without any evidence from Scripture and you claim that I have failed to study the Bible. Wow.
Why don't you study the Bible. For starters, there are NO verses that show Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
And, 2 Thess 2:1 plainly places the rapture (gathered to Him) WITH the Second Advent (coming of our Lord).
See? I HAVE evidence from Scripture.
No evidence that the 2W were LEFT BEHIND while everyone else in heaven goes and gets their immortal bodies.
No evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So, please tell me who has "failed to study the Bible" now.
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I don't understand how you can insinuate that you HAVE studied the Bible when you have NO EVIDENCE that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, or that the 2W will be LEFT BEHIND when Jesus takes everyone else to earth to receive their resurrrection bodies. You know, bodies that cannot die.
Instead, given your total lack of biblical evidence for your beliefs, you should have PLENTY OF DOUBTS about what you belief.
Instead, given your total lack of biblical evidence for your beliefs, you should have PLENTY OF DOUBTS about what you belief.
What challenge?
This?
"""3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."""
I hope you are not framing those verses postrib rapture.
They are not.
This?
"""3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."""
I hope you are not framing those verses postrib rapture.
They are not.
Let's go.
1. The pretrib rapture theory believes that all believers in heaven come with Jesus pretrib and get their resurrected (immortal) bodies and then return to heaven for the wedding supper.
2. But the 2W which are now in heaven, will come back to earth during the tribulation and be KILLED at the end of their ministry.
So your theory is FORCED to accept another theory that the 2W will be LEFT BEHIND when everyone else gets their immortal bodies.
3. Rev 19 describes the wedding supper as something that is about to be. Not something that is occurring.
4. v.9 is very instructive. It says "blessed are those who ARE INVITED to te wedding supper. Why talk about those invited if the wedding is occurring? Makes much more sense to talk about who is AT the wedding. So the invitation shows that the wedding hasn't actually occurred at that point.
5. What immediately follows in context is Jesus and His army (all believers in heaven) on horses about to descend to earth to "rule the nations with a rod of iron.
6. Acts 24:15 speaks of a resurrection for both the "righteous" (saved) and a resurrection for the "wicked" (unsaved).
Do you know that the singular mention of "resurrection" means ONLY ONE?
There will be ONE for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.
Rev 20:5 describes the tribulation martyrs' resurrection as the FIRST one. That's when ALL believers get their new immortal bodies.
Yes, it is very easy to show from Scripture that the rapture is after the Tribulation.
And, it is impossible to show from Scripture that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
1. The pretrib rapture theory believes that all believers in heaven come with Jesus pretrib and get their resurrected (immortal) bodies and then return to heaven for the wedding supper.
2. But the 2W which are now in heaven, will come back to earth during the tribulation and be KILLED at the end of their ministry.
So your theory is FORCED to accept another theory that the 2W will be LEFT BEHIND when everyone else gets their immortal bodies.
3. Rev 19 describes the wedding supper as something that is about to be. Not something that is occurring.
4. v.9 is very instructive. It says "blessed are those who ARE INVITED to te wedding supper. Why talk about those invited if the wedding is occurring? Makes much more sense to talk about who is AT the wedding. So the invitation shows that the wedding hasn't actually occurred at that point.
5. What immediately follows in context is Jesus and His army (all believers in heaven) on horses about to descend to earth to "rule the nations with a rod of iron.
6. Acts 24:15 speaks of a resurrection for both the "righteous" (saved) and a resurrection for the "wicked" (unsaved).
Do you know that the singular mention of "resurrection" means ONLY ONE?
There will be ONE for the saved and ONE for the unsaved.
Rev 20:5 describes the tribulation martyrs' resurrection as the FIRST one. That's when ALL believers get their new immortal bodies.
Yes, it is very easy to show from Scripture that the rapture is after the Tribulation.
And, it is impossible to show from Scripture that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
"""...And, 2 Thess 2:1 plainly places the rapture (gathered to Him) WITH the Second Advent (coming of our Lord)"""
What do you think you proved?
The rapture is a "coming"
It has always been a "coming"
Rev 14 has a "coming" on the clouds...and a gathering....which is neither the main harvest pretrib rapture or the 2nd coming on horses
Elijah and enoch are in heaven now. The bible says so.
They alone address your concerns about the 2 witnesses.
Factor everything in and you will drop the postrib rapture model.
Quickly
It is extremely erroneous
What do you think you proved?
The rapture is a "coming"
It has always been a "coming"
Rev 14 has a "coming" on the clouds...and a gathering....which is neither the main harvest pretrib rapture or the 2nd coming on horses
Elijah and enoch are in heaven now. The bible says so.
They alone address your concerns about the 2 witnesses.
Factor everything in and you will drop the postrib rapture model.
Quickly
It is extremely erroneous
I'm trying to understand how anyone that supposedly has such a deep understanding of scriptural intent, and 'reading right' spiritual things, be so confused about natural things?
I mean, if I take the time and consideration to look close enough, I can understand everything you are saying despite the formidable maze of elaboration that does more to misguide than to clarify any biblical truth.
And please, stop winking so much, I'm beginning to wonder if its an nervous eye tic...
I mean, if I take the time and consideration to look close enough, I can understand everything you are saying despite the formidable maze of elaboration that does more to misguide than to clarify any biblical truth.
And please, stop winking so much, I'm beginning to wonder if its an nervous eye tic...