Justification has not come about because of anything believers are capable of achieving on their own

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Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,412
887
113
#61
No sorry I don't still have flesh. It was crucified when Christ came in.
OK, obviously we do not all have to have the same understanding of these issues. I am glad salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by correct doctrine!

But here is my understanding:

You say you do not have flesh. Yes, you do. The flesh was not crucified when Christ came in.
It was the old nature (or old man, or sin nature) that was crucified with Christ (at our new birth). It is always important to make a clear distinction between the old man/sin nature, which is a spirit level reality, and the "flesh" which is a soul/body level reality.


Here are the major verses that talk of being crucified with Christ:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Colossians 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the w

The "I" in Galatians 2:20 and Colossians 2:20 is not your flesh, but the old you (your old man/sin nature).

Never in Scripture is the "flesh" said to be crucified with Christ.
Galatians 5:24 says this: "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." The verb "have crucified" here is a gnomic aorist tense which means something like this: = it is the normal disposition of those who are in Christ to crucify the flesh. But this is after conversion, not when we are crucified with Christ (conversion). The Christian still has the flesh, though what we need to do is to crucify it.
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
16,075
1,238
113
#63
You're the only one on this site along with me that believes the following...

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" 2 Cor 5:17

We cannot make ourselves become alive, because we are dead in our sins.
I was going through the pages to see things I may have missed and saw this, I think it is very presumptuous to say this, you haven't been here that long and you don't know everyones hearts, just so you know Angela and I agree on many things and she is kind of like my unofficial mentor to me and if I didn't believe what you are assuming people don't then I could not know God because only as a new creation can we know him.
many on here know this and believe and live this maybe not in the particular way you do but it isn't for you to say or judge what a person believes and what is in their hearts

If you wish to be a teacher then you need to learn to not make such assumptions
 

Peterlag

Active member
Jun 15, 2020
299
50
28
#65
I was going through the pages to see things I may have missed and saw this, I think it is very presumptuous to say this, you haven't been here that long and you don't know everyones hearts, just so you know Angela and I agree on many things and she is kind of like my unofficial mentor to me and if I didn't believe what you are assuming people don't then I could not know God because only as a new creation can we know him.
many on here know this and believe and live this maybe not in the particular way you do but it isn't for you to say or judge what a person believes and what is in their hearts

If you wish to be a teacher then you need to learn to not make such assumptions
I said it off the cuff. But if you really want to get serious. I have not found one person anywhere in the world who believes...

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 

Peterlag

Active member
Jun 15, 2020
299
50
28
#66
OK, obviously we do not all have to have the same understanding of these issues. I am glad salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and not by correct doctrine!

But here is my understanding:

You say you do not have flesh. Yes, you do. The flesh was not crucified when Christ came in.
It was the old nature (or old man, or sin nature) that was crucified with Christ (at our new birth). It is always important to make a clear distinction between the old man/sin nature, which is a spirit level reality, and the "flesh" which is a soul/body level reality.


Here are the major verses that talk of being crucified with Christ:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
Colossians 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the w

The "I" in Galatians 2:20 and Colossians 2:20 is not your flesh, but the old you (your old man/sin nature).

Never in Scripture is the "flesh" said to be crucified with Christ.
Galatians 5:24 says this: "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." The verb "have crucified" here is a gnomic aorist tense which means something like this: = it is the normal disposition of those who are in Christ to crucify the flesh. But this is after conversion, not when we are crucified with Christ (conversion). The Christian still has the flesh, though what we need to do is to crucify it.
So we agree... It was the old nature (or old man, or sin nature) that was crucified with Christ (at our new birth).
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,412
887
113
#67
I said it off the cuff. But if you really want to get serious. I have not found one person anywhere in the world who believes...

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
One of my favorite verses, and I believe every word of it!

I John 3:9 πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ ἁμαρτίαν οὐ ποιεῖ, ὅτι σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἐν αὐτῷ μένει, καὶ οὐ δύναται ἁμαρτάνειν, ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται.

I love its clarity when read in the koine Greek . . .
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,279
602
113
40
#69
You're the only one on this site along with me that believes the following...

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" 2 Cor 5:17

We cannot make ourselves become alive, because we are dead in our sins.
You make a lot of sweeping remarks and I just don't get it.

In the OP you say "And yet most of us believe by way of our actions that we somehow need to find a way within our own thinking on how to justify ourselves".

Even if this was true, how do you know what "Most believers think"?

Then in this comment you say "You're the only one on this site along with me that believes the following." then I assume you go on to mean "We cannot make ourselves become alive, because we are dead in our sins".

I believe this whole heartily, and not only that, but even the repentance that leads to salvation is a gift lest any man boast. That aside I know others on here that also believe this. Why do you think this way? Have you asked everybody what they believe in order to say things like this? I don't care, it's not a big thing, it made me curious enough to ask.
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
16,075
1,238
113
#70
I said it off the cuff. But if you really want to get serious. I have not found one person anywhere in the world who believes...

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And again you have not been here that long, so many people have come here in the past preaching the same thing and just because you have not met anyone like that doesn't mean they aren't there.
I believe we are a new creation and yes in his eyes we are sinless and have no sin but you cannot also say that you do not have flesh and do not sin because no matter how strong we are we are not in the spirit 24/7 we will stumble we will fall we will be distracted by things in life that is part of being human.

Something I have noticed is that we are a unique creation by God, there are angels and demons both are either good or bad there is no inbetween but humans have both light and darkness even our eyes see this way if it is to dark we are blind and cannot see anything we need a light to see the way but if it is to bright we are also blinded because the human eye was not meant to see that way if we were in God's full presence and glory we would be blinded and overwhelmed if we are in the darkness of evil we also are blind and head to the gates of hades.

We struggle with sin even as new creations for a purpose, we battle light and darkness from both sides evil and good God and the devil because we are the vessels they both can only influence not force and we are inperfect as humans ( not in Christ) to show our need for him and his grace and salvation.

You say you have not met anyone else in the world who thinks like you do yet is faith not believing in the unseen? if so then you should not say this just because you have not met them
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
16,075
1,238
113
#71
You make a lot of sweeping remarks and I just don't get it.

In the OP you say "And yet most of us believe by way of our actions that we somehow need to find a way within our own thinking on how to justify ourselves".

Even if this was true, how do you know what "Most believers think"?

Then in this comment you say "You're the only one on this site along with me that believes the following." then I assume you go on to mean "We cannot make ourselves become alive, because we are dead in our sins".

I believe this whole heartily, and not only that, but even the repentance that leads to salvation is a gift lest any man boast. That aside I know others on here that also believe this. Why do you think this way? Have you asked everybody what they believe in order to say things like this? I don't care, it's not a big thing, it made me curious enough to ask.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
31,451
9,528
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Florida
#72
Justification is something GOD DECLARES of a person meaning they are NOT GUILTY of the sins in their lives. This act is made possible by ONE MEANS ONLY! Being cleansed of our sins by the precious blood Christ shed on the cross. This is the ONLY way one can be made FREE of guilt and become worthy to be the heirs to the Promise.

Man CAN NOT EARN JUSTIFICATION!

The Precious Blood of Jesus


Leviticus 17:11, 14 (cp. Deuteronomy 12:23) “For the life of the flesh
is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an
atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement
for the soul…. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life
thereof …”


Hebrews 9:22 “Without the shedding of blood, there is
no remission of sins.”


1 John 1:7″… the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth
us from all sin.”


Exodus 12:13 “… and when I see the blood, I will pass over
you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you,
when I smite the land of Egypt.”


Revelation 12:11 “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood
of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony …”


Hebrews 9:14 “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who
through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience …


Hebrews 10:19, 22 “Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter
into the holiest by the blood of Jesus … Let us draw near with a true
heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience …”


Hebrews 13:12 “Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify
the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.”


Romans 3:24-25 “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;”

Romans 5:9 “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.”
Your explanation is more clear and concise than the OP.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
31,451
9,528
113
65
Florida
#73
You're the only one on this site along with me that believes the following...

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!" 2 Cor 5:17

We cannot make ourselves become alive, because we are dead in our sins.
This site has over 100,000 members so unless you actually know each members view on this point you cannot claim conclusively that you and one other person are the only members on this site that agree with this point. Blanket statements painted with a broad brush are generally not well received in this forum.
 
Mar 23, 2016
3,718
997
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#74
Did Jeremiah continue to eat the same words over and over? He would probably starve if he had to keep trying to eat the same food over and over.
The Word of God is the spiritual nourishment for the inner man.



2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

This section in 2 Corinthians 3 is speaking of the reading of Scripture (2 Cor 3:14). Those who have turned their hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ read Scripture with open face and behold the glory of the Lord in the reading ... and we are changed into the same image from glory to glory ... this is a spiritual reality. The Word of God is spiritual food for the new creation within.

God works on the inside and we reflect the image to those with whom we come in contact.



 
Mar 23, 2016
3,718
997
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#75
John is talking to those who are either not saved yet or not walking by the spirit yet. He's not talking to those in Christ.
John is talking to born again believers:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ is not available to those who are not born again.


verse 6 deals with those who are "not walking by the spirit":

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth



verse 7 speaks of born again believers who abide in the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



verses 8-2:2 also speak of born again believers:

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



verses 3-6 also speak of born again believers:

1 John 2:3-6 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

I have never met anyone who walked as Jesus walked 24/7 and I have seen you fall short in some comments you have made in threads.

As much as I love God and as much as I love the Lord Jesus Christ, sometimes I am drawn away. And when I am, I have that advocate to Whom I turn and I confess.

To confess is to go to Father and agree with Him and that which He has written in His Word ... which is why it is important to continue to read Scripture ... so that you know what is right in the eyes of God and what is not right in the eyes of God.

Confess = Greek homologōmen (from homologeó) to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse).

God, in His infinite mercy, forgives and cleanses from all unrighteousness ... fellowship restored.
 

Blain

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
16,075
1,238
113
#76
John is talking to born again believers:

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ is not available to those who are not born again.


verse 6 deals with those who are "not walking by the spirit":

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth



verse 7 speaks of born again believers who abide in the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



verses 8-2:2 also speak of born again believers:

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



verses 3-6 also speak of born again believers:

1 John 2:3-6 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

I have never met anyone who walked as Jesus walked 24/7 and I have seen you fall short in some comments you have made in threads.

As much as I love God and as much as I love the Lord Jesus Christ, sometimes I am drawn away. And when I am, I have that advocate to Whom I turn and I confess.

To confess is to go to Father and agree with Him and that which He has written in His Word ... which is why it is important to continue to read Scripture ... so that you know what is right in the eyes of God and what is not right in the eyes of God.

Confess = Greek homologōmen (from homologeó) to voice the same conclusion, i.e. agree ("confess"); to profess (confess) because in full agreement; to align with (endorse).

God, in His infinite mercy, forgives and cleanses from all unrighteousness ... fellowship restored.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,772
1,382
113
#77
I like your heart and enjoy having fellowship with you. But I'm not nice like you. I don't care if people read my stuff or not. I put it out there for all to see. Let anyone think upon what I write if they would enjoy doing so. By the way, did you read all of my 200 pages concerning the Christ. You said you already knew all that.
Interesting that you begin with Stephen. Rather than Christ who empowers men to do His will.

You offered....

Stephen full of faith and power
Stephen was written for those who have wondered how a guy like Stephen was able to get to the place in his life where it could be said of him that he was full of faith and power. Acts 6:8, declares "Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people." The apex of all Christian living is walking with God, who is the creator and sustainer of life, the all-powerful, all-loving, ever-present force... in a way that will produce power from on high in our lives.
Right from the beginning its easy to see where the 200 page commentary is going. Those who seek after signs and lying wonders gospel or as the person wrote;.

A deeper meaning, a new richness to life, a higher intensity—mysterious, magical, yet when it happens there is nothing that could be more complete, natural, or right.
Calling it a great magical secret of some sort of magical kingdom. Stephen was full of the Spirit faith and power in the same way as any believer.

But when wondering begins according to sign seekers rather than beleive what is written .Whole ministries are designed as a secret source called sign gifts . Something the bible does not support . Mysteries are made know through the parables. They teach us how to walk by the unseen .And not making gods in the likeness of men as shown in Acts 14 .as if the power came from a apostle. The mystery church does not remains a mystery to those who rightly divide the parables, prophecy .

We should be careful on how we hear what the Spirit says to the churches and not the churches opinion as a private interpretation. His interpretation it affects what we believe.

Stephen full of Christ's faith as a labor of love. Christ's love that worked Stephen's corrupted body of death. By and through Christ's work of faith with power. No power is attributed to dead flesh .

Stephen having the same spirit of faith that worked in Abel the first recorded martyr, prophet and apostle. Empowering all believers by the mutual faith of Christ that does work to both will and perform His good pleasure. .

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Romans 1 shows us the power of same spirit of faith, that works from within as spiritual unseen gifts. Two fold. Affecting two never one. (no self edifying) Moving Paul with words and giving the hearing of Christs to the other .

For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual
faith (christ in us) both of you and me.Romans 1:11=12
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
14,772
1,382
113
#78
John is talking to those who are either not saved yet or not walking by the spirit yet. He's not talking to those in Christ.
Christ put his words on the lips of John. Its not John talking any more than it was Balaam donkey . That work of Christ faith stopped the madness of that false prophet.

God simply is not served with corrupted hands as a will of mankind in any way shape or form

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

The word "three" in parables is used to demote the end of a matter Three times the Father our Lord but words in the mouth of Jesus the apostle prophet . . .as it is written and again and a gain as it is written (sola scriptura)
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,639
436
83
54
#79
This site has over 100,000 members so unless you actually know each members view on this point you cannot claim conclusively that you and one other person are the only members on this site that agree with this point. Blanket statements painted with a broad brush are generally not well received in this forum.
Besides that it would be a false wittiness.
Not well received by our lord as well.
Blessings
Bill
 
May 23, 2020
1,558
309
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#80
Why do we continue to read the same book over and over? We don't do that with any of our school books or any other book that we read.
We continue to read the Bible because it is profitable for understanding, correction and training in righteousness. We have not yet attained the level where we needn’t be corrected, learn anything or are completely correct in our behavior.