Kenneth Hagin and the prosperity gospel

[Ariel82]

Okay so deaconess only ministered to other women because a man touching a woman was unseemly, so the priest couldn't do some of the duties (such as baptism, announcing of oil, etc)?

We obviously don't hold to those taboos anymore.

Just find it interesting what traditions people cling to and which they discard.

I always want to ask, what does the Bible really say?

Is the doctrine we believe actually based on the full reading of scripture?

Or is it man-made traditions that people cherish but isn't based on Biblical truth?

 

[BeyondET]

So, "if" these women teachers and leaders in the church are in fact in error and against the word of God - people "could" say that they are in "heresy".

Because of some having a different view on women and leadership truths in the church. - that means we are now free to do this below ( in some people's eyes ):

That means in some people's eyes that we can now publicly "expose" these heresies and castigate them. We can insult them and de-mean them. We can "go the Greek" to try to prove that these women teachers are "in heresy".

We can call them heretics and lovers of sinning. ( they must love sinning to go against the word of God about women and leadership ) and they are an example of having "itching ears" now just like Paul says they would have in the end times - drawing false teachers unto themselves.

In extreme cases this would mean we can put their pictures up with devil horns on them. Put their "wolf face" in a sheep's skin. We can create websites dedicated to these heretical "women teachers".

Such is the anatomy of us "heretic hunters" and heresy hunters that publically attack others that have a different view of some subjects. We do this even though we have no spiritual authority. Those in a leadership position in a local assembly only have that authority.

Think about it? What if every time a women teacher posts on here in CC - that means we can insult her and call her a heretic and in heresy. We can de-mean her and call her all sorts of names. We do all this in the name of "defending the truth and rightly dividing the word of truth".

Selah....

( and yes - there are times to stand up for the gospel of the grace of God which is all about Christ and what He has already done - that is different then biting and devouring each other over things like healing, women in leadership, tongues, whether God wants His children well - does God want us to have an abundance so that we can give to others...things of that nature. )

That's a excellent analogy, surely if the people who think women shouldn't teach will be excusing women who post are in error a heretic. I'll be looking for these to do so who preach it, it should get real interesting if these folks have the boldness to do it.. lol

 

[Ariel82]

Not sure what you mean by your question, but Presbyteros got shortened to Presb, Presb to Prest and Prest to Priest. Thats the origin of the word "priest", I think.

The today´s position of the roman catholic priests, for example, is not biblical, though. They made them something like the OT Levitical priests.

Exactly, I think many of the church offices aren't biblically based but set up to have power over the flock that really belongs to God.

Catholic priesthood and the position of preacher and pastor can be abused, if the flock doesn't operate as a body and just do what they are told without question, prayer or study of the Bible.

That's why we have many false teachers with large followings. They aren't taught the need for studying the Bible and real prayer to learn God's will for our lives and not magic spells to force our will upon a made up God of false promises.

.tying back to the question is Kenneth Hagin's teachings Biblical?

His early sermons seem okay, but his latter sermons remind me of the delusions of king Saul and Solomon's many wives leading him astray.

 

[Ariel82]

That's a excellent analogy, surely if the people who think women shouldn't teach will be excusing women who post are in error a heretic. I'll be looking for these to do so who preach it, it should get real interesting if these folks have the boldness to do it.. lol

First this is more of a place we can have conversation.

People mistakenly believe it you start a thread, you are attempting to "teach".

For me it's more like a Bible study discussion, where God and the Bible are the teachers. Sometimes we can help facilitate the conversation, but I prefer to think the Holy Spirit is the leader and teacher.

Secondly, we don't need to bite and devour and label people names, but we do need honest and heart felt discussion about the false doctrines that are creeping into our churches and what God has given us through the words of the Bible to divide truth from lies.

 

[sevenseas]

I wanted to read this thread last night, but my eyes kept closing and getting to it this am, I see it has moved along so forgive me if I am repeating what others said cause I would like to jump on board, but don't have time right now to dig in so, again, so scusami if I am boring anyone

Hagin is often attributed with prosperity gospel preaching, but the roots go back to Norman Vincent Peale and Kenyon is another well known name associated with the roots of this gospel

I thought there was a decent history provided by THIS SITE


I'm not satisfied it provides an in depth analysis, but for an overview it seems to be ok

it does start off knocking Osteen, but that is NOT, repeat NOT, why I linked to it. get past the author's personal thoughts and stick with the history. that, is why I linked to it

as with so much on this site, actual facts seem to slip by the wayside in favor of emotional assaults and knee jerk responses, and I have no idea at this moment as to the direction this thread has taken, but Ariel does seem to try and create an proper atmosphere for discussion, so later I will try to catch up

sorry if I stepped on anybody's tiny tootsies here

from the site:


The prosperity gospel is built on a quasi-Christian heresy, popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries in the United States, known as New Thought. This philosophy teaches that the key to health and wealth acquisition is thinking, visualizing, and speaking the right words. Norman Vincent Peale (1898–1993), pastor of Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, popularized New Thought ideas and techniques in America through his book The Power of Positive Thinking (1952). Ralph Waldo Trine (1866–1958), however, was the most prolific purveyor of New Thought. In both works, one can discern some of the key recurring elements of the prosperity gospel: speaking the right words, invoking a universal law of success with words, and having faith in oneself.

The ideas of New Thought influenced, among others, E. W. Kenyon (1867–1948), an evangelist, pastor, and founder of Bethel Bible Institute. His approach to theology is the basis for one of the prosperity gospel’s most distinctive features—speaking the right words to bring about a new reality; what you confess, you possess. Kenyon served as a link to the popular prosperity preachers that formed the foundation of the modern prosperity gospel movement.

 

[Ariel82]

Got to go volunteer at the school then cook stir fry and egg rolls for the church...

Between 60-100 people typically show for wonderful Wednesday and its my week to cook.

My daughter will be helping. Its such a blessing to have a loving church family.

 

[sevenseas]

egg rolls...had some last night

yummy!

 

[Ariel82]

Thanks for the history lesson 7seas,

When you get here, we kind of veered off topic, (to a topic that has been on my mind because I am trying to figure out what God is calling me to do.I figured I will just follow where He leads me.) but it's a good reminder to get back on track.

I have to admit, I don't feel moved at this time to research the other people. Will make a note to look into it later.

I am sure others will find the information useful.

 

[Ariel82]

I think I will start another thread because I do need some sound biblical advice and the purpose I started this thread (to talk to Allen about Hagin and Osteen) has been accomplished but I hope it still blesses others.

Thanks Allen and everyone else for a civilized discussion.

I think it's need a miracle that no one (as in members of this site) has been labelled a wolf or really insulted on this thread, ...yet.

 

[BeyondET]

First this is more of a place we can have conversation.

People mistakenly believe it you start a thread, you are attempting to "teach".

For me it's more like a Bible study discussion, where God and the Bible are the teachers. Sometimes we can help facilitate the conversation, but I prefer to think the Holy Spirit is the leader and teacher.

Secondly, we don't need to bite and devour and label people names, but we do need honest and heart felt discussion about the false doctrines that are creeping into our churches and what God has given us through the words of the Bible to divide truth from lies.

If you learn something from a conversation no matter the gender than you have been taught.

 

[wolfwint]

What are the duties of deaconess?

Was Deborah a deaconess? What are the dutys of a deaconess ? If we consider that there is no clear meantioning of a deaconess in the Bible, then we can say that there dutys were not to teach man in the word of God.
It seems this was generell not the dutys of deacones.

 

[Grace777x70]

That's a excellent analogy, surely if the people who think women shouldn't teach will be excusing women who post are in error a heretic. I'll be looking for these to do so who preach it, it should get real interesting if these folks have the boldness to do it.. lol

We are partial to attacking those that we deem to be heretics because they have a different view then "I or my group does."

Personally I would defend those women teachers being publically vilified and insulted along with the classic name-calling that goes with this sort of foul behavior.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

 

[Ariel82]

Was Deborah a deaconess? What are the dutys of a deaconess ? If we consider that there is no clear meantioning of a deaconess in the Bible, then we can say that there dutys were not to teach man in the word of God.
It seems this was generell not the dutys of deacones.

No Deborah was a judge and we do have an example i,the Bible where women taught men.

But we can move this discussion to another thread.

 

[BeyondET]

We are partial to attacking those that we deem to be heretics because they have a different view then "I or my group does."

Personally I would defend those women teachers being publically vilified and insulted along with the classic name-calling that goes with this sort of foul behavior.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Indeed I would as well,

Though the people who would disagree with women teaching would probably get a ear full... lol

 

[BeyondET]

No Deborah was a judge and we do have an example i,the Bible where women taught men.

But we can move this discussion to another thread.

Don't forget a prophet and a military leader...

 

[wolfwint]

If women teachers that teach in congregations that have men in them are viewed by some as "being in error" and against the word of God - is it also in their eyes called being in "heresy" too?

What say ye? ( or for the Texans - ya'll )

I dont know how the Lord will judge it. But werden have the scripture as I mentioned before. And we have in the whole Church Historie (after pentecost ) no example from auf woman teaches man. We find also not in church Historie,if we ignore heretic groups and Movements, that woman teaches man. The first church was, if in am not wrong the salvation army around 150 years ago. Means that the believers before this time had a wrong exegese concern 1.Tim 2 and 3? Why we dont find biblical examples?
And why many believers argue that this is a question of werth? If you teach about ephesians 5 that a woman should submit to there husband today you nearly will be stoned in some denominations and churches.

 

[Stephen63]

I didn't know Kenneth Hagin was a woman preacher..... or did somebody derail the thread again?

 

[BeyondET]

I didn't know Kenneth Hagin was a woman preacher..... or did somebody derail the thread again?

Don't you mean getting away from the bashing,

 

[Ariel82]

I didn't know Kenneth Hagin was a woman preacher..... or did somebody derail the thread again?

We moved rooms/threads Stephen. Some folks haven't gotten the memo yet.

Thanks for your valuable contribution. I was worried I hadn't had my daily jab from you. Thought you might be sick.

Praise God all is well with you and you can continue to be a Ray of light and love in every thread you grace with your presence.

Ps...you never said what my harvest would be if I sent you Seed money.

 

[joaniemarie]

So, "if" these women teachers and leaders in the church are in fact in error and against the word of God - people "could" say that they are in "heresy".

Because of some having a different view on women and leadership truths in the church. - that means we are now free to do this below ( in some people's eyes ):

That means in some people's eyes that we can now publicly "expose" these heresies and castigate them. We can insult them and de-mean them. We can "go the Greek" to try to prove that these women teachers are "in heresy".

We can call them heretics and lovers of sinning. ( they must love sinning to go against the word of God about women and leadership ) and they are an example of having "itching ears" now just like Paul says they would have in the end times - drawing false teachers unto themselves.

In extreme cases this would mean we can put their pictures up with devil horns on them. Put their "wolf face" in a sheep's skin. We can create websites dedicated to these heretical "women teachers".

Such is the anatomy of us "heretic hunters" and heresy hunters that publically attack others that have a different view of some subjects. We do this even though we have no spiritual authority. Those in a leadership position in a local assembly only have that authority.

Think about it? What if every time a women teacher posts on here in CC - that means we can insult her and call her a heretic and in heresy. We can de-mean her and call her all sorts of names. We do all this in the name of "defending the truth and rightly dividing the word of truth".

Selah....

( and yes - there are times to stand up for the gospel of the grace of God which is all about Christ and what He has already done - that is different then biting and devouring each other over things like healing, women in leadership, tongues, whether God wants His children well - does God want us to have an abundance so that we can give to others...things of that nature. )

Well., well THAT is an interesting post you got there Grace777. Just wow !

That sort of means a few ladies here (and some men) may have to "repent" or "re be sorry" for their positions about woman "teaching" males and posting here as well and even in their own churches.

Since by all intents and purposes according to their OWN words we should ALL be doing as they did and do..... if we we're reeeeeeallly as spiritual as they have already been..... I mean..... they have said they must "expose" other Christians publicly for their "heresy" For loving sin and teaching others to do the same..... do we count these as heretical woman teachers or as the captive silly women being led astray by every wind false of doctrine????

After all, they are coming across with a different doctrine since they are usurping the male's authority. ....since they are going against what some others believe to be the biblical mandate for leadership..... for no woman is to teach a man........ shouldn't we be "protecting the "baby sheep" here...."

As they themselves and their male counterparts have said.,,, it's every ones "duty" to call it out for what it is.... "false teaching" they want to boldly proclaim heresy wherever it's found........ as it's being "perpetrated" on all who come to these hallowed forum halls..........



right???? Angela... Stephen..... preacherguy..... and all others who feel the continual need to bring down the other brethren with words of condemnation for daring to disagree with you and your opinions........ ? I'd say it's very silly and hopefully you guys may think more in the future about calling others heretics???? maybe??????