Kenneth Hagin and the prosperity gospel

[Grace777x70]

Who could dispute or doubt anybody to whom Jesus appeared to and sat and talked with for an hour and a half (in 1959) ? Hagin discusses this event beginning at the one-minute mark. Apparently Mr. Hagin was born-again at the time ... but not "Spirit-filled". According to Hagin, Jesus was teaching him how to be led by the Spirit. Nope .... no red flags here.

Well..I suppose if you believe that Jesus cannot appear to someone now - then we can throw it all out. Myself I believe Jesus can appear to others and many people have testified to. I don't believe all these muslims saying that Jesus has appeared to them are lying.

Here are a bunch of people telling of this. Anyway I am not going to debate this because it is a useless thing - either w e believe He can and does or we don't.

https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei...w#q=Jesus+appearing+to+muslims+youtube&spf=68

 

[Ariel82]

Who could dispute or doubt anybody to whom Jesus appeared to and sat and talked with for an hour and a half (in 1959) ? Hagin discusses this event beginning at the one-minute mark. Apparently Mr. Hagin was born-again at the time ... but not "Spirit-filled". According to Hagin, Jesus was teaching him how to be led by the Spirit. Nope .... no red flags here.

Minute 8 has a good point that "it's unscriptual to go to a prophet to get guidance, because everyone had the Holy spirit or guide within them."

I agree with that and his previous comments don't bother me because he is talking about how his heart tells him to go or not go to a certain place to preach.

I believe God can lead folks that way. He also said God told him he would never appear to him in a vision again.

The question is, was that being really Jesus or just a false angel telling him what God already placed in his heart to gain trust to later deceive him?

72 minute...aww man..

 

[Johnny_B]

Maybe a silly question, but I am thinking about this for a while (when I see various threads about specific teachers):

Why do people need to follow contemporary teachers, tv preachers, authors etc?

Why the Bible, reformation and some creeds are not enough? What "else" or "new" do you expect to learn from todays teachers that is not present in the Christianity from the beginning?

Why do you need somebody´s sermons to tell you what is or is not in the Bible?

And I mean this generally, not just to Ariel or about Kenneth Hagin.

Ephesians 4:11-16 “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

We need those that have the gifts that Christ supplied to the body so that it would grow in faith, until we come to the measure of the fullness of Christ or to be conformed to the image of Him. That teachers would teach the body to be mature in the faith so that we are not believe any thing that comes along. New and old believers need to be taught, because hearing another view or angel of the Word, can help us understand something that we could be struggling with. The heart point of it all is that learn to love one another.

 

[joaniemarie]

Personally I believe that some modern day evangelical beliefs are all mis-representing the Father and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

On one end of the same tree we have those that say being in poverty is God making us humble - then we have those that say God makes us sick to teach us things or the equally abhorrent belief that God "allows" it so He can be glorified.

That is like saying a parent "allows" someone to bring a disease on purpose on their child so that the parent can be seen by others "how good they are". That is a "sick parent" and a "sick god".

We would throw people in jail for such behavior. And yet - we somehow have more righteous moral beliefs then God does. Where do we even get this moral outrage from? - God of course - and yet we ascribe this horrible attribute to our loving Father.

I firmly believe that we are going to be horrified of the thoughts we had towards our good, loving Father when we stand before Him and see Him for who He truly is. He will wipe every one of our tears away with His loving hands.

Then we have those on the other side of the tree that say "God wants us to all be millionaires and have the biggest house in the city - live the American dream".

God says that He delights in the prosperity of His children and how He chooses to display that prosperity is up to Him. God's definition of being "rich" is an abundance to take care of things in our family with plenty left over to abound to every good work to be a blessing to others. It's the way of the kingdom of God. There is never any lack.

The term "rich" means "full supply".

Then there are those that condemn people that are sick and we can be like Job's buddies and accuse them of all kinds of nonsense. We need to have compassion on those that are sick in this world and walk with them with the faith that they do have - not to beat them up for not getting things the way that we think it should manifest in their lives and in what timing.

The truth is some of us don't have the faith to bring what grace has already provided for us in Christ. There are many areas that I simply don't have the faith for now in my life. I recognize it for what it is and I don't blame others because they do have faith in that area that I don't.

There is a way to encourage others to believe God without condemning them or believing they are condemning us just because they are speaking the truth. There are 2 sides to that tree too.

The real truth is - faith or the lack of faith was talked about by Jesus many times where He said they had little faith. Is Jesus now attacking the emotions of those that don't have faith? Or is He simply showing where their lack is and knowing this deficiency can make them pursue Him as He is the truth.

Some of us modern day believers would be ripping the Lord Jesus apart for His talks to people both corporately and individuals on having no and little faith.

We are to encourage each other in where ever we are at and not bite and devour each other because we believe differently on a subject. None of us know things as we ought to know them says Paul - but let's stop this biting and devouring each other and walk in where each of us are at now in our own walk with the Lord.

Speak of the love and grace of our Lord and the nutrients we need will be brought to us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to fix our hope completely on the grace that comes with the hearing and seeing of Jesus. 1 Peter 1:13

These 2 principles remain true for all of us.

Romans 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.

Very much agree. I've already been brought up short at how wrong we humans can be. We can live out our whole lives based on our own personal understanding of God and be ridiculously off. Christians especially. And it shows me 100% we cannot look at people for truth. We are all too capable of going down some road of our own making.

That clip of people being drunk in the spirit makes no sense to me. I believe the Holy Spirit is just as calm and sweet and powerful and in control as Jesus Christ and the Father because He is God. Many people will be surprised when they get to heaven and meet Him. How He was not "silly" or out of control. Those are human traits not Godly ones.

People can take emotions on either side just like you said Grace777 and be just showing their flesh out. That goes for the legalist who is as sour as lemons showing no joy in their lives trying to force others to follow in their joyless black and white and ungodly ways. As well as the far left Pentecostal who is rolling on the floor like those shown in the video. Both are just as disturbing to me and in no way represent the Holy Spirit IMO.

Another major reason we can't take our truth from man and must go to the Bible and the Holy Spirit to measure the truth. It is too easy to go off in the flesh and get carried away either way. That's why we are constantly admonished to know Jesus and the power of His resurrection. To allow the Holy Spirit to lead us into ALL truth. To be imitators of Christ not people we know. We all have a lot to learn and are just like sheep (just like Jesus said) we need the Good Shepherd Jesus Christ all the time., not just when we are lost and needy but when we are well fed and in need of nothing. No wonder Paul said he was content in whatever state he was in. He was a man who followed Christ and was used of God because he did.

 

[Ariel82]

Minute 17....he talks about that God isn't against His People being rich but against them being covetous...

So far the sermon is alright....but still listening.

 

[Grace777x70]

What about the person who said "help me in my unbelief"?

I don't agree with his conclusion that you have to have faith to be healed. Some people had no faith but Jesus healed them anyway. The man at the pool is an example.

His teaching causes people to assume that it's the lack of faith that is the reason people are not healed.

This is sermon 1 of 6. So will keep chipping away and see his full message.

The absolute truth is that in some cases we are not healed because of a lack of faith.

The 4 gospels are chock full showing this truth.

Here are just a couple but I could be here all day showing this to be true. Why do people think it's a bad thing?

I know there are areas where I don't have the faith in yet. I don't cry "wolf" to others because they encourage me to have faith. I recognize it for what it is and look to the Lord.

Here Jesus could do no mighty work because of their unbelief.

Matthew 13:58 (NASB)
[SUP]58 [/SUP] And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

Here in Matthew 17 is where our own natural human reasoning would say - See - it is not Gods will to heal everyone - the disciples couldn't heal this boy - but when Jesus shown up - He showed it was Gods will for the boy to be made whole and He healed him and then chastised them because of their unbelief.

Some of us modern believers would castigate the Lord for saying that we had unbelief and we would bite and devour Him for saying this. Insult Him and then call Him names..


Matthew 17:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?[SUP]20 [/SUP] And Jesus said unto them,Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

 

[notmyown]

Minute 8 has a good point that "it's unscriptual to go to a prophet to get guidance, because everyone had the Holy spirit or guide within them."

I agree with that and his previous comments don't bother me because he is talking about how his heart tells him to go or not go to a certain place to preach.

I believe God can lead folks that way. He also said God told him he would never appear to him in a vision again.

The question is, was that being really Jesus or just a false angel telling him what God already placed in his heart to gain trust to later deceive him?

72 minute...aww man..

i believe the office of prophet is no more, but the gift for today is a Bible teacher (for me it's my pastor, primarily).

i think it's a mistake to say not to go to your pastor for advice and Biblical counsel.

Jews ask for signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified...

 

[trofimus]

Ephesians 4:11-16 “And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.”

We need those that have the gifts that Christ supplied to the body so that it would grow in faith, until we come to the measure of the fullness of Christ or to be conformed to the image of Him. That teachers would teach the body to be mature in the faith so that we are not believe any thing that comes along. New and old believers need to be taught, because hearing another view or angel of the Word, can help us understand something that we could be struggling with. The heart point of it all is that learn to love one another.

Please, see my post #59.

I think there was a huge change in 1004 and it is even worse today. There are so many contradictory teachers and teachings that we must choose what we want to believe anyway.

There is no "one" church anymore and so there are no "church teachers" in a common sense like in the days of Paul...

Even though I respect some authorities in their field (Greek, Biology/Genesis etc) I do not think they require following like in the days of the first church.

The reality is that you must say "no" to the 99% of teachers today. Roman catholic ones, eastern orthodox ones and then you can continue according to your specific confession till you will get only few you are ready to "follow".

 

[plainguy]

Well..I suppose if you believe that Jesus cannot appear to someone now - then we can throw it all out. Myself I believe Jesus can appear to others and many people have testified to. I don't believe all these muslims saying that Jesus has appeared to them are lying.

Here are a bunch of people telling of this. Anyway I am not going to debate this because it is a useless thing - either w e believe He can and does or we don't.

I'm not interested in debating it either. But I have examined it. In the "drunk-in-the-spirit" clip I provided, Mr. Hagin is quoted as saying ... "If the people present thought the apostles was drunk, this must mean that the apostles was acting like they was drunk". The response was laughter followed by hysteria ... followed by people running and jumping up and down the church aisles like wild banshee's ... followed yet by others rolling around on the floor and kicking their legs ... slipping out of their chairs on to the floor in drunken stupors ... etc. etc. (Kenneth Copeland et all). A disgrace to the true nature of our God ... pure and simple. But hey ... that's just my opinion.

 

[Grace777x70]

Minute 8 has a good point that "it's unscriptual to go to a prophet to get guidance, because everyone had the Holy spirit or guide within them."

I agree with that and his previous comments don't bother me because he is talking about how his heart tells him to go or not go to a certain place to preach.

I believe God can lead folks that way. He also said God told him he would never appear to him in a vision again.

The question is, was that being really Jesus or just a false angel telling him what God already placed in his heart to gain trust to later deceive him?

72 minute...aww man..

I agree....the Lord Jesus did appear to him before and if you listen to him talk about Jesus. You would know that it is Him. He described His eyes as "liquid pools of pure love bathed in indescribable light".

 

[Johnny_B]

Thanks for the post, not a bad sermon on having strong faith.. Ken spoke on the woman who touch Jesus garment, the two blind men, the wealhy mans child, strong faith is important I think..

Could have even touched on the ( while sitting under the fig tree)

[video=youtube;hP9rBDYYFvw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=hP9rBDYYFvw[/video]

Yes strong faith is important, as long as your faith is in Christ and not in your faith, your faith is only as good as what it is placed in. There's one thing to have different views of the Scripture, which I've been finding is just a different way of saying the same thing. But twisting Scripture is not a different view of the Scriptures, it's teaching contrary to Christ. Like saying God told me there are 50 people that need to give $1000.00 so that God can bless them. That is taking the name of the Lord in vain, you are using the Lord's name for ones profit.

WoF teaching is not based on the whole council of God, it's a verse here a verse there, all out of context, to promote their agenda. Here's a verse they twist quite bit. Philippians 4:19 "And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus." God will supply all your needs, ​not all your wants or pay all your bills. The context is about giving to supporting a missionary/evangelist, it's not about giving money to get money.

 

[Ariel82]

Here is one from Hagin that talks about being led by the Holy Spirit in our every day lives. IMO - There are many good things for us to learn from this.

[video=youtube;C1fJhsRWP2s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1fJhsRWP2s[/video]

Minute 24
He talks about the supernatural (innerward leading moves in the heart) versus the spectacular (visions and miracles)

How people should be lead by the inner leading of God.

I agree with that..

However, I object to what he is saying now...Minute 26

He says "He doesn't guide you through your physical sense" and downplays intellect...red flag let me pause sermon..

 

[joaniemarie]

Maybe a silly question, but I am thinking about this for a while (when I see various threads about specific teachers):

Why do people need to follow contemporary teachers, tv preachers, authors etc?

Why the Bible, reformation and some creeds are not enough? What "else" or "new" do you expect to learn from todays teachers that is not present in the Christianity from the beginning?

Why do you need somebody´s sermons to tell you what is or is not in the Bible?

And I mean this generally, not just to Ariel or about Kenneth Hagin.

We are called to be wise and we have every opportunity to be so IN Christ. He has given us the Holy Spirit and each other. We are not to be children for our whole lives in need of people to constantly teach us. We each have the Holy Spirit and the Bible says we have no need of anyone to teach us. We're supposed to be growing up and able to discern truth from error.

So we will be exposed to many kinds of people and Christians. For one thing, we live on this planet and God's Word tells us to learn from one another and He gave the church gifted teachers and pastors and preachers and evangelists as gifts. BUT in having relationships with one another we are to first and foremost use the Holy Spirit's guidance to know how to relate with each other and how to take the truth and discard the false in our lives.

Cutting ourselves off from one another and or condemning each other is plain foolishness. We each have our "idiosyncrasies" And God knew that and planned for it. He gave us 1 Cor.13 on how to help steer the course. If there is no love and instead in it's place anger and fury about others being different than us something is wrong with our spirituality.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes strong faith is important, as long as your faith is in Christ and not in your faith, your faith is only as good as what it is placed in. There's one thing to have different views of the Scripture, which I've been finding is just a different way of saying the same thing. But twisting Scripture is not a different view of the Scriptures, it's teaching contrary to Christ. Like saying God told me there are 50 people that need to give $1000.00 so that God can bless them. That is taking the name of the Lord in vain, you are using the Lord's name for ones profit.

WoF teaching is not based on the whole council of God, it's a verse here a verse there, all out of context, to promote their agenda. Here's a verse they twist quite bit. Philippians 4:19 "And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus." God will supply all your needs, ​not all your wants or pay all your bills. The context is about giving to supporting a missionary/evangelist, it's not about giving money to get money.

Well said sir, God bless you for standing upon sound doctrine.

 

[Grace777x70]

i believe the office of prophet is no more, but the gift for today is a Bible teacher (for me it's my pastor, primarily).

i think it's a mistake to say not to go to your pastor for advice and Biblical counsel.

Jews ask for signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified...

Being led by the Holy Spirit for our each individual lives is totally different then going to a pastor to tell you what to do in life. There is a difference in getting council from godly people and being "led" by them.

People just doing whatever a pastor says to them is a disaster waiting to happen. Those who are the sons of God are led by the Holy Spirit who can use the council of others to confirm what He is saying.

 

[Ariel82]

I have learnt to stop when he says "never does the Bible says...."

Proverbs 27 the spirit of man is the candle of the Lord searching the inward parts.

He says that God will guide us through our spirit and not through our intellect, not through our physical being...

I believe that is a lie. God guide us through our spirit, our minds and our physical experiences...can show Bible verses later..

 

[Ariel82]

"We judge by our physical senses, but no where in the Bible does it say He will guide you by your physical senses." Minute 26v47

Pretty sure God does say that, but will need to research the verses.

He asserts that the old testament verses where he admits God lead people by their physical senses doesn't apply because they didn't have the spirit of God back then.

Which I believe is a lie.
.the OT SAINTS had the Holy spirit also and were lead by Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm not interested in debating it either. But I have examined it. In the "drunk-in-the-spirit" clip I provided, Mr. Hagin is quoted as saying ... "If the people present thought the apostles was drunk, this must mean that the apostles was acting like they was drunk". The response was laughter followed by hysteria ... followed by people running and jumping up and down the church aisles like wild banshee's ... followed yet by others rolling around on the floor and kicking their legs ... slipping out of their chairs on to the floor in drunken stupors ... etc. etc. (Kenneth Copeland et all). A disgrace to the true nature of our God ... pure and simple. But hey ... that's just my opinion.

I understand. Personally I have been in meetings in the past where people have been laughing. It's fun and brings joy.

Joy is a fruit of the Spirit within us. Gal.5

Job 8:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "He will yet fill your mouth with laughter And your lips with shouting.

Psalm 126:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] When the LORD brought back the captive ones of Zion, We were like those who dream.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then our mouth was filled with laughter And our tongue with joyful shouting; Then they said among the nations, "The LORD has done great things for them."

[SUP]3 [/SUP] The LORD has done great things for us; We are glad.
Here is a funny clip that illustrate the joy that comes with laughter. ( this might offend the stanch British view of how people should act in public )

[video=youtube;kHnRIAVXTMQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHnRIAVXTMQ[/video]

 

[notmyown]

Being led by the Holy Spirit for our each individual lives is totally different then going to a pastor to tell you what to do in life. There is a difference in getting council from godly people and being "led" by them.

People just doing whatever a pastor says to them is a disaster waiting to happen. Those who are the sons of God are led by the Holy Spirit who can use the council of others to confirm what He is saying.

did it seem i was implying the pastor as tyrant?

have you never met a humble man willing to 'shepherd the flock... not for shameful gain, but eagerly' ?

i thank God for our pastor. the time the man puts in to teaching and caring for all of us... it's a gift!

 

[Ariel82]

He asserts that God does not guide us by our minds or souls, just our spirit...minute 27v55

Which then allows any spirit to deceive you because your mind and soul are not engaged.,,it becomes about spiritual "experiences" and being lead by the supernatural.

I strongly object to tossing out verses about renewing your mind and how God leads us both in our souls and by using our minds to tear down the lies of the enemy in ourselves...but will continue listening...