Kenneth Hagin and the prosperity gospel

[joaniemarie]

I believe that a teacher should confirm what the Spirit is witnessing to in our own spirits. God still uses today teachers who are imperfect just like the rest of us. The old saying still holds true : "Chew on the hay and spit out the sticks".

There is no teacher from any denomination or "camp" that knows things the way we ought to know them.

Of course we still need teachers today in the body of Christ. We are not mature yet as Paul says the purpose of the 5-fold ministry is for the body to grow. Eph and 1 Cor.

Amen Grace777. We are supposed to grow up!! We need each other and yet we annoy each other. That's the human part but that's not an excuse to stay apart. The enemy seeks to have us be like the "man of the tombs" Sure., we have every "human" reason to stay away from each other. But God calls us to learn from one another and gave us teachers and preachers and evangelists. We are stronger for being together and we learn how to be like Jesus more and more as we are challenged by and even annoyed by each other.

And we each have the Holy Spirit to show us and verify the truth He has already given us. Then how wonderful is it to be in the company of other Christians who have also experienced Jesus in ways that He has been revealed personally to us?!!!!! As well as learning other things about Jesus we have not been challenged about yet. It's awesome to have the truth spoken out by another believer as the Holy Spirit has lead them to the very SAME truthful conclusions of who Jesus is. The Spirit witnessing to our spirit. It all goes to the truth of iron sharpening iron.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have learnt to stop when he says "never does the Bible says...."

Proverbs 27 the spirit of man is the candle of the Lord searching the inward parts.

He says that God will guide us through our spirit and not through our intellect, not through our physical being...

I believe that is a lie. God guide us through our spirit, our minds and our physical experiences...can show Bible verses later..

So, everything becomes a lie now? If we went by your premise here - we could say every time you post something that can have other aspects to it but you have not talked about yet - it too is a lie.


Perhaps a better way would be - how about when we get our minds renewed to the truth - then our minds are involved. Do we live by what we see or by what we believe God word says? Where does this truth originate from?

Where do we get the witness of the Spirit from that we are the children of God? Our mind that can be all confused because of various reason? Our bodies that say we don't feel like the Holy Spirit is in us.

Romans 8:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[AllenW]

Okay this, this would be evidence that Joel Osteen is preaching a false prosperity gospel by misapplying scriptures to people's personal life....



Took me less than 5 minutes to find.

If someone asked me if I liked Joel Osteen as a teacher?

I would say no. He has a false understanding of the Bible.

If someone asked me if he was saved and a Christian?

I would say, it's not my place to judge another's salvation, but he is walking down the wrong road by teaching the false prosperity gospel.

Is there something wrong with this blog?
I don't see it.
He uses what God did for Joshua and the Jews as an example of what God can do for you.
He's telling you to believe and wait on God.
That's solid teaching.
What denomination have you come from that teaches this is false?

 

[notmyown]

I have learnt to stop when he says "never does the Bible says...."

Proverbs 27 the spirit of man is the candle of the Lord searching the inward parts.

He says that God will guide us through our spirit and not through our intellect, not through our physical being...

I believe that is a lie. God guide us through our spirit, our minds and our physical experiences...can show Bible verses later..

anytime you hear someone telling you you shouldn't engage your brain in the Christian life... run!

 

[Ariel82]

i believe the office of prophet is no more, but the gift for today is a Bible teacher (for me it's my pastor, primarily).

i think it's a mistake to say not to go to your pastor for advice and Biblical counsel.

Jews ask for signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified...

I believe God still gives people insight into the future and gives a word of knowledge to encourage others during hard times.

For example the prophet who told Paul he would be taken in chains and enslaved. I believe that affirmed what God already told Paul would happen and allow him to face his upcoming trials with peace and joy in CHRIST.

I believe there are many false prophets and false teachings. But on that note, going back to 72 min sermon.

I see other posts but haven't read all of them yet.

 

[Ariel82]

Is there something wrong with this blog?
I don't see it.
He uses what God did for Joshua and the Jews as an example of what God can do for you.
He's telling you to believe and wait on God.
That's solid teaching.
What denomination have you come from that teaches this is false?

No denomination needed. Logic and common sense and reading scriptures in context shows that apply those scriptures to people today is false and dishonest.

Let me finish this video and we can discuss more if you like.

You can tell me why you think it's true and I can tell you why I think the teaching is false.

 

[plainguy]

anytime you hear someone telling you you shouldn't engage your brain in the Christian life... run!

Yup ... come .. let us reason together

 

[Grace777x70]

did it seem i was implying the pastor as tyrant?

have you never met a humble man willing to 'shepherd the flock... not for shameful gain, but eagerly' ?

i thank God for our pastor. the time the man puts in to teaching and caring for all of us... it's a gift!

All our leaders from the Lord are precious gifts!

There was a "shepherding movement" years ago that held the principle that what ever you did had to go through the shepherds or pastors first. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit - not a certain person telling us what we are to do in our lives. Again this is totally different from getting godly council that "confirms" what the Lord is telling us to do.

This has zero to do with the integrity of the person giving the council as they are all gifts from the Lord for us and they should be honored as such...

 

[Ariel82]

Not what I said g777, but gonna finish listening before asking more questions about what he is talking about, because it's obvious you can't handle questions.

 

[Grace777x70]

anytime you hear someone telling you you shouldn't engage your brain in the Christian life... run!

I agree.....however that is not what is being said in the video. The renewing of the mind is what is needed from spiritual truth that the Holy Spirit brings to us. Not our human natural reasoning which is why we have 30,000 denominations.

 

[notmyown]

All our leaders from the Lord are precious gifts!

There was a "shepherding movement" years ago that held the principle that what ever you did had to go through the shepherds or pastors first. We are to be led by the Holy Spirit - not a certain person telling us what we are to do in our lives. Again this is totally different from getting godly council that "confirms" what the Lord is telling us to do.

This has zero to do with the integrity of the person giving the council as they are all gifts from the Lord for us and they should be honored as such...

there was a homeschool curriculum back in the day put out by i blessedly forget who.

you had to attend their seminars to even buy it (at exhorbitant rates) and then just about vow to do everything they said.

uh.... no!

 

[Ariel82]

Minute 33 he says "you can take the Bible our of context and make it say anything you want it to say"

He was preaching on the inward spirit as the real person, but why doesn't he mention that the body is a temple to God? Why the stress only on the spirit and not the Whole person?

Jesus had a humanly body.

We are not just our spirits. God will give us resaurected bodies.

Will keep listening...

 

[joaniemarie]

Thanks for your contributions preacher4truth.
.However, from my brief research, your words won't be enough to root out the doctrine about God promising "health" because the assertation that it is Satan that have Job the illness, God just allowed it.

Permissive versus ....I really can't articulate it, because I believe it's false.

I just know it will take a lot of pray and time to address each concept and scripture twist.

I believe they are bricks that build a spiritual stronghold that war against the knowledge of God and His teaching about contentment in whatever state we find ourselves in.

However, Satan tactics are different with each one of us.

That is why we need to as a body of Christ, loving reveal the truth found in scriptures that will set the captives to Satan's lies free.

There will also be times where we will swear we know the truth. We even could have and many of us have raised our children on our private interpretation and prayed to God each morning on what we believed to be the truth only to find out later we were very wrong.

To actually build a life on a private interpretation and find out you were wrong is a major stepping stone in growing to "trust in the Lord with all your heart and not to your own understanding.... in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our paths." When we are actually following the Holy Spirit there will not be a fear we are going to be lead astray.

When we recognize the Holy Spirit's ministry to our spirit we will be able to discern more and more each day as we abide on the Vine. This is what we are called to do., grow up (mature) and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. And as we grow in confidence of the Holy Spirit we will not have a desire to pull down other Christians for disagreeing with us.

Knowing we are loved personally by God Himself will build a confidence that only His love can bring. The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the sons of God. That is a confidence and trust that we can't get anywhere else but from the witness of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

 

[Grace777x70]

Not what I said g777, but gonna finish listening before asking more questions about what he is talking about, because it's obvious you can't handle questions.

What is mis-leading is saying things should be called lies when the things have not been looked at yet in their context. We need to listen to more things people say about a subject then just take one aspect of it and call it a lie without knowing the other parts to it yet. That's what I am commenting on.

Questions are good as they help to get a clearer picture of what is really being said. Once the clear picture is seen and not mis-represented - then people are either free or not free to agree with it.

 

[Ariel82]

Ecc 3, calls out a false teacher "man is just an animal like a dog...old testament is written to dead people..progressive revelation....reading the old in light of the new....

You can know Greek and Hebrew and miss what God is saying....


Wait wait..animals do have "spirit" or the breath of life, it's says it in Genesis.

I agree they are not made in the image of God, but the Bible says they have spirit.
Minute 35.56

 

[FranC]

I think people have already hashed out this topic over and over again on this forum and many other forums. I was just giving a polite warning to Ariel, which she probably already knew.

I won't let you draw me into a lengthy debate on this topic because no matter what I say most likely it won't be accepted.

Far as closing my mind? Well I have heard and seen plenty of evidence on the subject and we will just be repeating what has already been said many times over.

As far as to the ministers I have listened to. Well I purposely left their names out because I refuse to sit here and debate with anyone on this topic. It gets heated and nasty and it doesn't edify anyone on this forum.

CD

Just want to say that there are always new people around that have not discussed this.

I'm one and Locutus is another.

Words are never wasted...

 

[Grace777x70]

Minute 33 he says "you can take the Bible our of context and make it say anything you want it to say"

He was preaching on the inward spirit as the real person, but why doesn't he mention that the body is a temple to God? Why the stress only on the spirit and not the Whole person?

Jesus had a humanly body.

We are not just our spirits. God will give us resaurected bodies.

Will keep listening...

Because the purpose of the teaching is on - Being led by the Holy Spirit.

People that teach don't have the time to talk about every other aspects of things or they would never get anything across.

We are not led of the Spirit by our bodies. The fact that we are going to have a resurrected body is irrelevent to the purpose of the teaching.

 

[bluto]

Okay Allen

Another thread.

I refuse to hijack someone else's thread more than I already have but do want to hear what you believe.

I don't know the hearts of all the people who answer the altar call of Joel Osteen.

Some might truly be believers, but I have seen what the preaching of false prosperity gospel does.

I don't want a mud slinging match.

I want to examine their words and objectively through prayer see if it's true or false.

I posted one example of the false promises Joel Osteen posted on his website yesterday.

Will find and repost.

Have not researched Hagin and what he teaches, but a brief search says he started the prosperity gospel movement.

Any websites you would recommend?

This is a controversial subject and I doubt we will agree, but do you think we can have a civilized discussion or is this just a wasted thread?

Wait a minute here ariel? I fully realize that this thread is about the wof prosperity gospel and what hagin wrote in his book the "Midas Touch," condemming the likes of copeland and others? HOWEVER, should we not take into consideration all of the other hertical teachings of these men and women? Jesus going to hell, faith filled words, Jesus dying spiritually, being little gods and many other anti-Biblical teachings? Enlighten me?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[joaniemarie]

There are many ways of viewing scriptures on some subjects.

One of the things to remember about bible interpretation: Everything in the bible is truly stated but not everything is a statement of ultimate truth. The revelation of Christ Himself is the Truth that trumps all other things that we may "perceive" from the Old Testament beliefs about God.

God's nature never changes - our "perception" of Him can as we see Jesus and His ways in dealing with people do change too - the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ changed everything

The scriptures are "progressive revelation" that end with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

Jesus is perfect theology. He is the exact representation of the nature of our Father and He came to do the will of the Father and to reveal the Father's real nature to us all.

If we want to see how our Father views sinners and the self-righteous - see how Jesus interacted with them while on this earth.

If we want to see God's will for providing for us - see how Jesus provided for others - sometimes in rich abundance and there was never any lack.

No where do we find anywhere in Jesus' life where do we see any of these things being said by Jesus to anyone;

1) I can't heal you because God is trying to teach you something.

2) I can't heal you because you have sin in your life.

3) I can't heal you because you have not forgiven your mother-in-law. ( or anyone )

4) I can't heal you because you have not been eating and exercising properly. ( They were all on the Mediterranean Diet too... )

5) I can't heal you because God wants you to suffer with this sickness so that you will learn to trust in Him.

None of these things ever occurred although we have been taught by some of our church teachings that they are true. There is no evidence in the life of Jesus - in fact - the evidence is the complete opposite of what we have been taught in some circles.

Just to keep the malice down to a minimum - I will say this again concerning riches - I definitely believe that riches can be deceiving and I have written about this many times in the past.

Riches within themselves are neutral - they can be used for good or evil. When we get to heaven we will be constantly surrounded with the "evil riches"....think about it.

Riches are deceiving in the aspect that we think we can find life from them and if we have them - then we really don't need God as He alone is our provider.

This can happen for those that are rich and equally for those that are poor. We are trusting in and looking for life out of whether we have or don't not have them. That is idolatry and will not bring us the life that only is found in Christ.

He is our provider , He is our Healer, He is our Life.

If people have a different view - then that is their choice I won't call you a "cult", false teacher, heretic or insult you personally for your beliefs in these areas. Nor will I create a thread "exposing" your heresies because you have a different view then I do. I will not put devil horns on your picture and put your "wolf face in a sheep's skin".

It's good to speak the light of the Lord Jesus Christ and His light will dispel the darkness like mist on a foggy morning when the light hits it.

The faith that you have - have it before God. All is well...

Another Amen Brother!! How good and pleasant it is! Pslam 133:1 [SUP]1 [/SUP]Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

 

[Ariel82]

Min 60 okay he defines soul as basically the mind and spirit as the innermost being.

We probably need a word study of both Greek and Hebrew words that can be translated as "soul" or "spirit" or "mind" or "heart"

Otherwise folks will be talking about many different concepts and verses because i know a few words that can be translated as both spirit/mind and soul/innermost being.