Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheWaytoGo]

It is exceedingly clear. The saints are not on the earth at that time.

The 'Wrath of God' is post-rapture at the Second Coming of Christ.

Right. Just as in the days of Noah and Lot, business is being conducted as usual, evil, corruption, murder, human suffering in unprecedented fashion, when Jesus splits the sky, gathers all that are His, first the dead, then the living, then He immediately delivers His Wrath, in 7 bowls, upon the unrighteous ones left on earth who would not repent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Living people don't get "resurrection bodies". Only dead people that are resurrected get resurrection bodies.

OK, let's unpack this. So, when Jesus comes and raptures EVERYONE, the living believers will have different bodies than the dead ones. Am I hearing you correctly?

I would suggest you read 1 Cor 15, which addresses the rapture/resurrection. Paul says the living believers' bodies WILL BE CHANGED. So what does that mean to you?

The proper terminology would be that the mortal bodies of the living saints are CHANGED into glorified, immortal bodies. Resurrection has nothing to do with them or their bodies.

It sure does. At least you acknowledge that the "change" will be the SAME as what the dead saints get; glorified immortal bodies.

1 Cor 15:23 proves that "those who belong to Him" are all changed/resurrected" at the same time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We will disagree here, there will be no 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the second coming

To be sure, I don't disagree with Rev 20.

And when the 1,000 years of Millennial reign occur, Satan is let out of prison to deceive the nations.

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

But you have admitted that you disagree with John's writing here.

 

[Absolutely]

OK, let's unpack this. So, when Jesus comes and raptures EVERYONE, the living believers will have different bodies than the dead ones. Am I hearing you correctly?

I would suggest you read 1 Cor 15, which addresses the rapture/resurrection. Paul says the living believers' bodies WILL BE CHANGED. So what does that mean to you?


It sure does. At least you acknowledge that the "change" will be the SAME as what the dead saints get; glorified immortal bodies.

1 Cor 15:23 proves that "those who belong to Him" are all changed/resurrected" at the same time.

Well sorta.
Not to split hairs but the resurrected then and now are resurrected with the same mortal body.

The glorified body that is as Jesus has is yet another step that the resurrected go through.

 

[Absolutely]

To be sure, I don't disagree with Rev 20.

And when the 1,000 years of Millennial reign occur, Satan is let out of prison to deceive the nations.

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

But you have admitted that you disagree with John's writing here.

Yes
Another rebellion and battle. Final battle. Then the gwtj where yet another resurrection takes place.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

You continue to misquote this verse, and leave out very important information contained within it.

Nope. I EXPLAINED the Greek word translated "received". It means more than just "to receive". My Greek lexicon says "receive AND retain, contain". iow, KEEP is a good word. Or REMAIN, as several translations show.

[and you continue to state things incorrectly like Jesus descending TO THE EARTH to resurrect and then rapture us... NO. The text in 1Th4 does NOT state that He comes TO THE EARTH at that point. Rather, we GO THERE "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" instead of what you just said... on the other page of this thread]

The reason I say "to the earth" is because there are NO VERSES that say He returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23). So where ELSE does He go, since NOT to heaven? He continues down and touches ground in Israel to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

And instead of what you put (as quoted at top ^ ), Acts 3:21 states,

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

So, what isn't clear here? The phrase "until the times of restoration" refers to something. So, what? Obviously Jesus' permanent kingdom, beginning with the Millennial Kingdom, and then continuing into eternity on the new earth.

Start quoting the entire wording of Acts 3:21, so you don't overlook the "TIMES [PLURAL]" issue that is involved (instead of your thinking this occurs only at His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 point in the chronology).

I quoted the entire verse. I guess you missed that.

The point is that the Greek word poorly translated "receive" means more than just a reception. It means "to receive AND retain, contain". I didn't make that up. I found it in my Greek lexicon.

The previous edition of the NIV Bible says "Jesus must remain in heaven until the times of restoration of all things". I was surprised and so I looked up the Greek word in my lexicon.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He said, quote...
...that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

Actually, I NEVER said that about Acts 3:21. So GaryA was correct about you misquoting me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

^ [EDIT to add and clarify further...]

This is what I said in post #413:
"Post #413 - In fact, Acts 3:21 says plainly (from the Greek) that Jesus remains in heaven until God "restores everything". That certainly doesn't happen before the Tribulation. That occurs when Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom after the Tribulation. The words "heaven must receive Him" means "receive and retain, contain", which is to remain. The Second Coming isn't in 2 parts, as the pre-Tribulation types must claim."

And then you said this about my quote:
"THAT ^ is what I am saying Acts 3:21 is NOT saying (as I've explained)."

Anyone can see that my quote does NOT say anything about Acts 3:21 including that Jesus comes to earth and returns to heaven. The first line notes what Acts 3:21 says. Then I said "that doesn't happen before the Tribulation". That refers to the pre-trib rapture theory. The next word is "that", which refers to WHEN Jesus does come back to earth at the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The reason such verses are rejected is because they DO NOT say that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven. Did you read Acts 3:21 and what the Greek word for "receives" really means?

Then you are just not reading and understanding the scripture.

Why do you ignore the real meaning of "receive" in Acts 3:21? And why do you ignore my challenge that there are NO verses that say that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?

The Lord said that in His Father's house there are many rooms and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He would come back again to get us and take us to those places in the Father's house. The only way that you can't understand that is by purposely ignoring the context. When He says, 'I will come again' it means that He will return again to get us and take us back to the Father's house.

I've already explained this. Jesus was talking to living people who would eventually die physically. He wasn't taking about end times.

In regards to Acts 3:21 which says "Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things," heaven did take Him and He does indeed reside there. However, it doesn't mean that Jesus is restricted to heaven.

It does. My lexicon translates "receive" as "to receive and retain, contain". The words are clear. It means KEEP, or REMAIN.

In fact several translations actually use the word "REMAIN", as in "Jesus must REMAIN in heaven until..." So I'm not making up anything.

It doesn't do away with His promise to come and get His church prior to His wrath. Jesus is God! He is not restricted to heaven by Acts 3:21.

There is NO promise about coming to get His church and take them back to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That is just another apologetic.

Thank you! But I guess you might not really understand what you just said. Apologetics is the science of DEFENDING truth. It has nothing to do with apologizing for a mistake or error.

When Jesus comes to get the church it will be a group event envolving the entire church, which is what the true believer is anticipating and watching for, Just as the Lord told us.

1 Cor 15:23 disagrees with you. When Jesus comes, it's for ALL "those who belong to Him". That would include EVERYONE who has already died and is NOW in heaven with Him.

When we die, Jesus does not come to get us, but our spirits depart from our bodies and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. The spirits of those who are in heaven are looking forward to the resurrection from their. The promise to come and get us is directly linked to I Thessalonians 4:16-17 when all who have died in Christ will be resurrected immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. I Thess.4:16-17 is the fulfillment of John 14:1-3.

Agaih, I will ask you; where is the verse that says Jesus resurrects/raptures all believers and then takes them back to heaven.

When I ask that, everyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture gives nothing but construct. No verses.

You need to stop reading the false teachings of men that are out in the world.

Rather, I've given what the Bible SAYS clearly. Where are YOUR verses that teach a pre-trib rapture/resurrection? You've yet to provide any. Why is that?

Many have been deceived because of these teachings.

Yes, you've got that one right!

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
The reason such verses are rejected is because they DO NOT say that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven. Did you read Acts 3:21 and what the Greek word for "receives" really means?

Why do you ignore the real meaning of "receive" in Acts 3:21? And why do you ignore my challenge that there are NO verses that say that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?


I've already explained this. Jesus was talking to living people who would eventually die physically. He wasn't taking about end times.


It does. My lexicon translates "receive" as "to receive and retain, contain". The words are clear. It means KEEP, or REMAIN.

In fact several translations actually use the word "REMAIN", as in "Jesus must REMAIN in heaven until..." So I'm not making up anything.


There is NO promise about coming to get His church and take them back to heaven.

""Why do you ignore the real meaning of "receive" in Acts 3:21? And why do you ignore my challenge that there are NO verses that say that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?""

Look we KNOW HE TAKES THE BRIDE TO HEAVEN.

A babe in Christ with a Bible can defend that fact.

What you postribs do is take the real argument on a serries of rabbit trails.

You intentionally omit rapture verses, then center on some n/a omission that magically become a smoking gun.

To me that is rediculous.

Why not just say " We know Jesus never sneezed or burped because you can not show me a verse"

 

[Absolutely]

""There is NO promise about coming to get His church and take them back to heaven.""

Lol
Mat 25,acts 2.... And the last supper dialogue.

Not to mention mat 24,and rev 14

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How about nearly 20 years of reading through the NT monthly? Does that qualify for anything?

Rather than kicking a dead horse, can you point to ANY verse that specifically indicates that Jesus raptures people and then takes them back to heaven? That would save a whole lot of time.

Rev 19 the bride becomes the wife in heaven.

The wording is clear that the wedding is about to take place, not that it occurred 7 years previously. If that were true, the wording in ch 19 would be quite awkward, to say the least.

Note the words: "the Bride HAS MADE HERSELF READY...". That doesn't make sense to say at the END of the Trib IF the wedding occurred 7 years before.

The last supper dialogue also places the wedding supper in heaven as well as dwellings.

If so, then please cite your source.

The first miracle is forever canonized as at a wedding.

It doesn't need to be "canonized". It's a statement of fact.

Not to mention the rapture verses you leave out.

Well, that's exactly what I've been asking for. What "rapture" verse says Jesus returns to heaven with all resurrected/raptured saints?

Even your mat 24 verse says ”gathered FROM HEAVEN BY ANGELS"

It isn't "my" verse. It belongs to all believers. And just WHEN does that verse occur?

Here is some context:
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

How do3s v.29 begin?

Omitting verses and reframing others is not very good exegesis.

Your charge is baseless. I've given clear verses that state that Jesus STAYS in heaven until the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21) and that the "first resurrection" occurs AFTER the Tribulation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus said in mat 24 BEFORE THE FLOOD.
That is pretrib rapture

Huh? What verse mentions the flood?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
""Why do you ignore the real meaning of "receive" in Acts 3:21? And why do you ignore my challenge that there are NO verses that say that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?""

Look we KNOW HE TAKES THE BRIDE TO HEAVEN.

What verse SAYS so?

A babe in Christ with a Bible can defend that fact.

I invite you to prove your claim.

What you postribs do is take the real argument on a serries of rabbit trails.

No, I have taken you to verses that prove that there is no pre-trib rapture/resurrection.

You intentionally omit rapture verses,

I don't know what you mean by this silly remark, since 1 Cor 15:52, Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 clearly indicate a rapture.

then center on some n/a omission that magically become a smoking gun.

Huh? What's a n/a omission?

To me that is rediculous.

Yeah, I'd agree. I have no idea what you are even talking about.

Why not just say " We know Jesus never sneezed or burped because you can not show me a verse"

Because serious students of the Word of God don't make silly comments.

What we do is focus on what the Bible SAYS. And it doesn't say that Jesus takes raptured/resurrected believers back to heaven.

That's just a construct, which you know well.

The point is that you cannot prove your claim. I have.

 

[Absolutely]

I said:
""Why do you ignore the real meaning of "receive" in Acts 3:21? And why do you ignore my challenge that there are NO verses that say that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?""

What verse SAYS so?


I invite you to prove your claim.


No, I have taken you to verses that prove that there is no pre-trib rapture/resurrection.


I don't know what you mean by this silly remark, since 1 Cor 15:52, Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 clearly indicate a rapture.


Huh? What's a n/a omission?


Yeah, I'd agree. I have no idea what you are even talking about.


Because serious students of the Word of God don't make silly comments.

What we do is focus on what the Bible SAYS. And it doesn't say that Jesus takes raptured/resurrected believers back to heaven.

That's just a construct, which you know well.

The point is that you cannot prove your claim. I have.

 

[Absolutely]

I said:
""Why do you ignore the real meaning of "receive" in Acts 3:21? And why do you ignore my challenge that there are NO verses that say that Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?""

What verse SAYS so?


I invite you to prove your claim.


No, I have taken you to verses that prove that there is no pre-trib rapture/resurrection.


I don't know what you mean by this silly remark, since 1 Cor 15:52, Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 clearly indicate a rapture.


Huh? What's a n/a omission?


Yeah, I'd agree. I have no idea what you are even talking about.


Because serious students of the Word of God don't make silly comments.

What we do is focus on what the Bible SAYS. And it doesn't say that Jesus takes raptured/resurrected believers back to heaven.

That's just a construct, which you know well.

The point is that you cannot prove your claim. I have.

Have you bothered to read my post?

You are simply parroting postrib rapture talking points.

Every single teacher of yours OMITS the rapture verses.

Then you sit back,ignore the same verses, and somehow in your mind magically convince yourself you proved something.

Stop the rabbit trails of omission and get honest.

"Jesus never chews bubble gum. I know this for a fact because it is not in the bible”

Oh yeah, there's another thing you can "prove"

Like I said a babe in Christ with a Bible can easily prove pretrib rapture.
Your deal only works in your circles because you omit rapture verses

 

[Absolutely]

""What we do is focus on what the Bible SAYS. And it doesn't say that Jesus takes raptured/resurrected believers back to heaven.""

Get real.
You omit then claim you proved something.

Not honest at all.

When Jesus says "before " you make it "after"
When the angel says " in like manner". You change it to " oh no it is not"
When rapture verses are posted
Your strategy is to ignore

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Actually, I NEVER said that about Acts 3:21. So GaryA was correct about you misquoting me.

I wasn't trying to make such a point ^ .

I'll try to come back in a bit to explain (again, if needed) what my actual point was... it has more to do with your interpretation of "when" the "restoration of all things" [which is your truncation of the verse which consequently conveys an inaccurate meaning, as to how you're seeing the whole thing] occurs/commences.

What you are saying is that "heaven retains Jesus until time for the MK to start, coz [in your view] God's 'restoration of all things' happens at that point-in-time"... and I'm saying, only by your truncating the verse does it suggest such, but that this is NOT actually what the verse conveying (just like I explained to you over at the other discussion board).


Instead, it states, "whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive [or, to retain, if you like] UNTIL the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age" ... which "TIMES [PLURAL]" starts with His action to descend to the "IN THE AIR" meeting of the Lord (i.e. at the point in time of "our Rapture" which precedes the START of the 7-trib years [aka the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" (earthly-located) time-period--SEAL #1 / INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"]<--when Jesus will now "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13, Rev5:6, etc]).

When you leave out "until the TIMES of...," you are making it basically just say, "until God restores everything [i.e when the MK starts]"... but that is not what the entire sentence (understood altogether without truncating it) is conveying.

When Jesus ceases His "seated-at-the-right-hand-of-God / interceding / etc" roles (He is NOW doing) [whether you take that "seated" literally or figuratively, doesn't matter to the point I'm making re: chronology] and He DESCENDS (for the event of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"), at THAT point He has ALREADY STARTED "the TIMES OF" what is being referred to in the remainder of the verse... and this INCLUDES what transpires throughout the TRIB yrs LEADING UP TO the MK age commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth... BECAUSE the Trib events are also pertaining to the "ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of the holy prophets from the age" (the believing remnant of Israel "returning," His AGAIN calling them "My people, Israel" [not happening NOW], etc... ALL happens IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs... that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture").




Please let me know if I've stated your position/understanding on that verse, at least somewhat accurately along the lines of your intention, or not.

Again, I wasn't trying to make the point that you thought I was suggesting about what you'd said. Sorry I was not more clear.

[ @GaryA ... make sense?? = ) ]

 

[Truth7t7]

To be sure, I don't disagree with Rev 20.

And when the 1,000 years of Millennial reign occur, Satan is let out of prison to deceive the nations.

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

But you have admitted that you disagree with John's writing here.

What Will Your 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On Earth Look Like?

Jesus Christ Returned, With A Tangible Body, Sitting On A Tangible Throne?

A Jewish Priesthoid Sacrificing Animals In A Renewed Temple?

Mortal Earthly Humans Present?