Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[FreeGrace2]

So, please consider this:

• It makes no sense to be "caught up" to Jesus in the air if we're just going to come right back down.
• There won't be anything left to come back down to because 2 Peter 3:10 says when the Lord Jesus comes "as a thief" the Earth is going to look like a bazillion nukes went off.
• There's 1,000 years separating the First and the Second Resurrection. When New Jerusalem comes down and all the wicked rise for judgment, the saints are already in the city, which means they had to have previously gone up to the city....at the Second Coming!
• Jesus said the groom brings his bride to his father's house, so it just makes sense that the Second Coming is Jesus returning for His bride which He will takack to His Father's house for the Marriage supper of the Lamb, right?

What do you think about this?

#1: sure it makes sense. The living believers will be meeting the Lord at the Second Advent to receive their resurrection bodies, just after those who came with Him do. Actually, it makes no sense to believe Jesus comes down, resurrects/raptures believers and takes them back to heaven before the Trib WHEN THERE ARE NO VERSES THAT SAY SO.

#2: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

OK, to unpack this verse, we've got to read some context. You know, for context.
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. This refers to the Great White Judgment of Rev 20:11-15. And what follows is Rev 21:1 when the present earth passes away and God provides a new heaven and earth.

So, v.10 continues the thought from v.7, and refers to the same thing, when God melts the earth and provides a new one. btw, the phrase "Day of the Lord" can encompass the entire process from His Second Advent all the way to eternity, after the Millennial reign.

#3: where do you get 1,000 yrs separating 2 resurrections? Please cite evidence when you make claims. I have to assume you take Rev 20:5 as the first resurrection, which is obviously AFTER the Tribulation when Jesus returns to earth. And the GWT judgment occurts at the end of the Millennium. Is that correct?

#4: the error here is assuming that Jesus goes back to heaven at His Second Coming. Read through Rev 19 and 20. There's no way to come to such a conclusion.

When Jesus comes to earth at the Second Advent, He stays on earth to set up His Millennial reign. And He stays here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not even close.

I've given the evidence from Scripture that Jesus does NOT return to heaven. You are free to show me my error if you can.

There's a lot of useful meat on the bone in this thread. And yet you are starving for truth. Why is that?

Your question is quite faulty. I'm not starving. I have Scripture that supports what I believe.

Where are your verses that actually SAY that Jesus returns to heaven. That is pure assumption. Nothing more.

If you can prove that He returns, then provide the verse that says so. Thanks.

 

[KingdomBrat]

if you can prove that He returns, then provide the verse that says so. Thanks.

It's located in the Book of Assumptions, Chapter 3, the [story] about how Denial is not a River found in Egypt.

 

[ewq1938]

#1: sure it makes sense. The living believers will be meeting the Lord at the Second Advent to receive their resurrection bodies, just after those who came with Him do.

Living people don't get "resurrection bodies". Only dead people that are resurrected get resurrection bodies. The proper terminology would be that the mortal bodies of the living saints are CHANGED into glorified, immortal bodies. Resurrection has nothing to do with them or their bodies.

 

[Truth7t7]

When Jesus comes to earth at the Second Advent, He stays on earth to set up His Millennial reign. And He stays here.

We will disagree here, there will be no 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the second coming

Jesus Christ returns in fire and Final judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire 2 Peter 3:10-13,

As the New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem are revealed for eternity

Second Coming, resurrection of all, catching up of living righteous, judgement by fire heaven, earth dissolved, wicked lake of fire, righteous eternal New Heaven,Earth Jerusalem, judgement complete,eternity begins

All in the twinkling of an eye!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

You continue to misquote this verse, and leave out very important information contained within it.

[and you continue to state things incorrectly like Jesus descending TO THE EARTH to resurrect and then rapture us... NO. The text in 1Th4 does NOT state that He comes TO THE EARTH at that point. Rather, we GO THERE "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" instead of what you just said... on the other page of this thread]

And instead of what you put (as quoted at top ^ ), Acts 3:21 states,

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."

[speaking here of OT prophets and OT prophecies yet remaining to be fulfilled, which INCLUDES "Israel" (the believing remnant) being brought again to the forefront ("My people, Israel") in order to come to a place of PROMINENCE even IN/WITHIN/DURING the 7-year tribulation (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); it is THEY who will be "leading the charge," so to speak, IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years ("the Church which is His body" not being present on the earth during that time-frame, but returning "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-WITH] Him" at the Rev19 point in time); it is THEY (the believing remnant of Israel IN the trib) who are the ones DOING the "INVITING" (of the "guests [plural]") TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (the earthly MK which will commence upon His "RETURN" there, as an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom, at that point [Rev19])]



"TIMES" is not the equivalent of a "split-second" restoration at the point of His "RETURN" to the earth, but what also involves the TIME-PERIOD *preceding* that point in time (ex: the "4 living creatures" [Rev4:7-&chpts5,6] are described in the SAME way that the 4-directional plotment of Israel [and their "banners"] were...)... Rev5:4's wording "WAS FOUND" indicates that a searching judgment has already been concluded, and the 24 elders are wearing "stephanous/crowns" (which Paul said he would be awarded "AT THAT DAY" not the day of his death [his SPIRIT in heaven at that point], and NOT TO HIM ONLY--meaning, no persons in heaven are awarded "crowns" until they are "resurrected [bodily]" prior to that point )



Start quoting the entire wording of Acts 3:21, so you don't overlook the "TIMES [PLURAL]" issue that is involved (instead of your thinking this occurs only at His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 point in the chronology).

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

I know it isn't likely that any of you will watch this video, but I will post it anyway, someone might watch it and learn something.

 

[GaryA]

You continue to misquote this verse, and leave out very important information contained within it.

I believe you misread what he said that you quoted...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe you misread what he said that you quoted...

But I'm not.

He said, quote...

...that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

But that is NOT what the text of Acts 3:21 states (which I've explained... more than once ).



Let me go back to one of his first posts he made on this thread, and bring that forward for you to see [BRB]

Post #413 - In fact, Acts 3:21 says plainly (from the Greek) that Jesus remains in heaven until God "restores everything". That certainly doesn't happen before the Tribulation. That occurs when Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom after the Tribulation. The words "heaven must receive Him" means "receive and retain, contain", which is to remain. The Second Coming isn't in 2 parts, as the pre-Tribulation types must claim.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [EDIT to add and clarify further...]

Post #413 - In fact, Acts 3:21 says plainly (from the Greek) that Jesus remains in heaven until God "restores everything". That certainly doesn't happen before the Tribulation. That occurs when Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom after the Tribulation. The words "heaven must receive Him" means "receive and retain, contain", which is to remain. The Second Coming isn't in 2 parts, as the pre-Tribulation types must claim.

THAT ^ is what I am saying Acts 3:21 is NOT saying (as I've explained).

That occurs when Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom after the Tribulation.

NO.

"the TIMES of..." (which he entirely leaves OUT)... involves MUCH MORE than this ^ . It STARTS *PRIOR TO* that ^ point in the chronology.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The reason such verses are rejected is because they DO NOT say that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven. Did you read Acts 3:21 and what the Greek word for "receives" really means?

Then you are just not reading and understanding the scripture. The Lord said that in His Father's house there are many rooms and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He would come back again to get us and take us to those places in the Father's house. The only way that you can't understand that is by purposely ignoring the context. When He says, 'I will come again' it means that He will return again to get us and take us back to the Father's house.

In regards to Acts 3:21 which says "Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things," heaven did take Him and He does indeed reside there. However, it doesn't mean that Jesus is restricted to heaven. It doesn't do away with His promise to come and get His church prior to His wrath. Jesus is God! He is not restricted to heaven by Acts 3:21.

This misses or ignores the fact that the Bible uses "wrath of God" to mean His anger toward sin. Do believers continue to sin? Of course they do. However, the Bible also promises faithful believers that they will not experience God's wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 doesn't say believers will miss the Tribulation (as many assume). It contrasts "wrath" with "salvation". So, what's the opposite of "salvation"? The lake of fire, of course. That verse is about missing the lake of fire, due to our promised salvation.

When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Jesus experienced God's wrath on behalf of all believers, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath (any wrath), no longer rests upon believers. Whether the wrath that is coming upon this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowls nor the final judgment, the believer has been reconciled to God, which means we have gone from enmity to friendship. Through faith we have been brought back into a right relationship with God. When God sees the believer, He sees the righteousness of Christ and all that He accomplished, which is credited to those who believe.

In regards to sin, yes, we are all sinners. However, there is a big difference between willfully living according to the sinful nature and those who walking in faith who commit sin out of weakness. The latter continue in faith having repentant hearts and are always confessing their sins and continuing to be transformed into the image of Christ. Therefore, for those who are in Christ, their sins are forgiven. Those who willfully live according to the sinful nature remain condemned and will remain so if they die without Christs.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It is clear to me that Jesus was speaking of where believers go when they die BEFORE He returns to earth at the Second Advent. Problem solved!!

The problem is that neither the text or context includes anything about the Tribulation or end times. Jesus was simply talking about where believers who die will go.

That is just another apologetic. When Jesus comes to get the church it will be a group event envolving the entire church, which is what the true believer is anticipating and watching for, Just as the Lord told us. When we die, Jesus does not come to get us, but our spirits depart from our bodies and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. The spirits of those who are in heaven are looking forward to the resurrection from their. The promise to come and get us is directly linked to I Thessalonians 4:16-17 when all who have died in Christ will be resurrected immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. I Thess.4:16-17 is the fulfillment of John 14:1-3.

No, Jesus was simply telling Peter that he wouldn't physically die THEN, but he would LATER ON.

No, it is speaking about when Peter and the rest who will die in Christ, would resurrect in the same manner that the Lord did, which has not yet taken place, but is very near.

You need to stop reading the false teachings of men that are out in the world. Many have been deceived because of these teachings. Those who put the church through the same wrath as the wicked, do not know the nature of God. For God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since God's coming wrath will be upon the whole inhabited world, then believers must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

For the believer, Christ's return to get His church remains imminent, meaning that it could take place at any moment.

For those who believe and teach that the church will be gathered after God's wrath, Jesus return is not imminent because for them, God's wrath must take place first. By this belief you and others are not comforting believers as Paul said, but are putting them through the same wrath that the wicked will go through. You need to stop teaching these false teachings!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Rev 14:15 has an angel commanding this v.14 Angel to reap. Definitely a sticking point, because Jesus does not take orders from any mere angel.

Some Bibles capitalize the "His", "Your" and "You".......inferring that it is Jesus Messiah.

Frankly I'm not entirely convinced one way or the other....

Yes, I agree! I never believe that Jesus was the one on the cloud, but another angel.

 

[GaryA]

@TheDivineWatermark - how does "contradicts the notion" fit into all of that?

 

[GaryA]

@TheDivineWatermark - how does "contradicts the notion" fit into all of that?

Post #466 - in the box where you quoted him - he said that Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that ...

Did you somehow miss that part?

Or, have I missed something?

 

[Absolutely]

I never believed that Jesus was the one sitting on the cloud, as he is referred to as 'another angel." And if the 144,000 are the first fruits to God out of Israel who will have been previously caught up, then how can this first harvest also be first fruits and which are not mentioned as being the first fruits?

I've done all of these studies and I cannot come to a conclusion about who and what this first harvest is until God reveals it to me, just as He has the rest of scripture.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Jesus sitting on a cloud.
Angels do not wear crowns or called the son of man

 

[Truth7t7]

The Lord said that in His Father's house there are many rooms and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He would come back again to get us and take us to those places in the Father's house. The only way that you can't understand that is by purposely ignoring the context. When He says, 'I will come again' it means that He will return again to get us and take us back to the Father's house.

Gods word says absolutely (Nothing) about Jesus Christ returning to earth, and taking the Church back anywhere as you claim.

It States: "I Will Come Again And Receive You To Myself"

"That Where I Am, There Ye May Be Also"

John 14:1-3KJV
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Gods House, New Jerusalem, Coming Down From God Out Of Heaven!

Revelation 21:1-3 & 22-26KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

 

[Absolutely]

How about nearly 20 years of reading through the NT monthly? Does that qualify for anything?


Rather than kicking a dead horse, can you point to ANY verse that specifically indicates that Jesus raptures people and then takes them back to heaven? That would save a whole lot of time.


Indeed. Even though that word doesn't occur in Scripture. The better, and biblical, word is "gathered", as occurs in:

Matt 24-
30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thess 2-
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

It is clear from the context of Matt 24 that v.30-31 occurs AFTER the Tribulation (distress). And ch 2 of 2 Thess clearly reveals the ORDER: second coming of Christ, and THEN "our being fathered together to Him".

And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".


Then quote away, please. At least ONE verse that clearly and specifically teaches that Jesus takes the raptured believers back to heaven. Thanks.

Rev 19 the bride becomes the wife in heaven.

The last supper dialogue also places the wedding supper in heaven as well as dwellings.

The first miracle is forever canonized as at a wedding.

Not to mention the rapture verses you leave out.

Even your mat 24 verse says ”gathered FROM HEAVEN BY ANGELS"

Omitting verses and reframing others is not very good exegesis.

 

[ewq1938]

.

 

[Absolutely]

The reason such verses are rejected is because they DO NOT say that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven. Did you read Acts 3:21 and what the Greek word for "receives" really means?


This misses or ignores the fact that the Bible uses "wrath of God" to mean His anger toward sin. Do believers continue to sin? Of course they do. However, the Bible also promises faithful believers that they will not experience God's wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 doesn't say believers will miss the Tribulation (as many assume). It contrasts "wrath" with "salvation". So, what's the opposite of "salvation"? The lake of fire, of course. That verse is about missing the lake of fire, due to our promised salvation.

""The reason such verses are rejected is because they DO NOT say that Jesus takes raptured believers back to heaven. Did you read Acts 3:21 and what the Greek word for "receives" really means?""
Jesus comes back for his bride.
That is the rapture.

To try and prove the coming on white horses is the same dynamic as the rapture is next to impossible.

Jesus said in mat 24 BEFORE THE FLOOD.
That is pretrib rapture