LOGIC IS BEDROCK

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Logic is the opposite of faith. Logic is rooted in the observation of human experiences.
And human reasoning. Divine logic transcends human logic totally.

HUMAN LOGIC: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

DIVINE LOGIC: 1 +1 + 1 = 1
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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I understand maxwel, but I am not really concerned with definitions; what I am concerned with is how logic is viewed and how we use it as a means of deciding what is true or untrue. Regardless of how one may define the word itself, it is still impossible to explain the miracles in scripture by any appeal to the logic of natural process. It simply cannot be done. Logic will only take one so far. Beyond a certain point, it becomes useless as a means of determining the full truth about reality.
Logic and Miracles.

Without the existence of logic, which is part of God's eternal nature,
and without the intuitive understanding of logic which God has imparted to all of us...

you wouldn't be able to recognize a miracle right in front of you.

Without the gift of rational thinking which comes from God, which is based in logic...
you literally cannot think.

Without logical understanding, you could not recognize a miracle right in front of you.
You literally would not be able to think.

All of your mental faculties, all of them, would simply shut down.

Your brain would be like a computer with no operating system.
It would just sit there and do nothing.

Without the impartation of logical reasoning, which comes from God, humans would have no ability to think.


Definitions:
So yes, this particular disagreement really does hearken back to definitions.
If you have the wrong definition of logic, then you have absolutely no idea that you're using logic ALL THE TIME, FOR EVERYTHING YOU DO.

You use logic to pray, to read the bible, to sing hymns, to recognize miracles, to minister to others, to share the gospel, to walk across the room... you use logical understanding for everything. You could not turn it off if you tried.

God cannot do a miracle unless he possesses logic as part of his eternal nature,
and you cannot recognize a miracle unless you are using the logical mind God has imparted to you.


Christians & Logic:
The reason Christians don't understand much about logic is because they aren't taught much about logic.
It isn't that people are stupid, it's just that this is a subject people tend to misunderstand because it is seldom taught or explained.

If it is seldom taught, then people shouldn't be terribly surprised if they have some misunderstandings about it.

This should be expected.

..
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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By the way, I don't think that those who believe in libertarian free will have ANY basis for believing that Scripture is inerrant and inspired.

If you believe in libertarian free will, there is no reason to think that God inspired the men who wrote Scripture to do so, in a manner that addresses the situation at hand, using their own abilities, talents, and knowledge, while still writing Scripture in such a manner that the believer can consider it to be his authority, properly understood, transcending the gap between the audience's context and his own context.

Compatibilism perfectly accounts for the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture. Libertarian free will does not.

Leighton Flowers, Jesse Morrell, and countless other "authorities" can claim libertarian free will all day long and I wouldn't be swayed. I already mentioned the intricate shadows and types that are embedded within Scripture, and how they were fulfilled in a manner that were very consistent. Both the shadows and types, and the fulfillment, were fairly detailed and convey spiritual lessons.

Like I have said, I do believe in creaturely free will, but it is subordinate to the person's fallen or redeemed nature, and is ultimately subordinate to God's sovereignty. Either passively or actively, God decrees all that happens. He either allows it, or causes it.

And, those who are attempting to deny God's sovereignty are dishonoring Him, if they are believers, because they are not honoring His work in their lives.
Why wouldn't the word be Inspired under libertarian free will if God still works in each individual?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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And human reasoning. Divine logic transcends human logic totally.

HUMAN LOGIC: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

DIVINE LOGIC: 1 +1 + 1 = 1


This does not reflect the orthodox understanding of the trinity.

There is no logical contradiction in the orthodox understanding of the trinity.

The orthodox view has never been 1+1+1=1


The orthodox and traditional understanding of the trinity, to which I'm sure we all subscribe, is that God is THREE PERSONS IN ONE ESSENCE... and this does NOT commit a logical contradiction.

This is NOT a logical contradiction; this is NOT 1+1+1=1... and this isn't controversial in theology.

Logical Contradiction:
A logical contradiction only occurs if we say something IS a thing, and IS NOT a thing, AT THE SAME TIME, and IN THE SAME WAY.
So the early church fathers, understanding formal logic, stated that God is ONE in a DIFFERENT WAY than the way in which he is three.

Again, God is ONE in a DIFFERENT WAY than the way in which God is THREE.
One ESSENCE.
Three PERSONS.
This is NOT a logical contradiction, and this is not 1+1+1=1.
The orthodox trinitarian belief is 1=1, and 3=3.

Our Orthodox Expression of the Trinity uses VERY PRECISE LOGIC:
The early church fathers were EXTREMELY careful about this.
They were being very logical, and very precise.
The early church fathers actually employed a great deal of formal logic in the very precise expression of the Godhead.

God is ONE ESSENCE and THREE PERSONS.

In Christian theology 1=1, and 3=3... this is how theologians have always expressed the Godhead.
1 ESSENCE and 3 PERSONS means 1=1, and 3=3.
The early church fathers arrived at this particular expression by thinking through scripture, and then using very precise rules of formal logic, in order to AVOID a logical contradiction.

.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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That is absolutely true Magenta, but this is not a truth we can conclude tough any observation of the anything in the natural world. In other words, we do not arrive at this conclusion through logic. We only know this because this information is revealed to us in scripture. In Acts 3 and 4, we find the account of Peter and John healing "a certain man lame from his mother’s womb." Even among the Jewish leaders and elders there was consensus that this was an unexplainable event, despite the fact that they could not deny it. The bottom line is that this remains an unexplainable event regardless of the all available medical knowledge, then or now. There is no logic that can explain such an occurrence. All the evidence can only point to one source. This was an act of God. This is of course true of all the miracles.
It is logical, though, to say the maker of heaven and earth can do things that cannot be explained by scientific standards or accomplished in any other manner. That atheists deny miracles is not a valid objection to accepting miracles as being explained logically. As believers, we accept that God can do that which we cannot :)

Matthew 12:10-13 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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miracles are called miracles for reason. they are unusual occurances and impossible ones unless God. something like sun rising is not a miracle because we know it always happens.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Logic is the opposite of faith. Logic is rooted in the observation of human experiences. Faith is rooted in things we cannot see, taste, touch, or smell. This being true, how would you explain the miracles by the use of logic?
I disagree wholeheartedly.

Logic and faith are simply not in the same category, so they cannot be opposites. Faith is the certainty of things not seen; logic is a set of principles that underlie sound thinking and reasoning. Logic is rooted in the nature of God. We discover it; we don't create it.

I have no need to explain miracles (at least, those recorded in Scripture). Rather, I accept them because they are logical within a Christian worldview.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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And human reasoning. Divine logic transcends human logic totally.

HUMAN LOGIC: 1 + 1 + 1 = 3

DIVINE LOGIC: 1 +1 + 1 = 1
Your examples have nothing to do with logic. You're misusing the term in a vain attempt to discredit it, and in so doing, employing a logical fallacy called a straw man argument.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,123
695
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Logic and Miracles.

Without the existence of logic, which is part of God's eternal nature,
and without the intuitive understanding of logic which God has imparted to all of us...

you wouldn't be able to recognize a miracle right in front of you.

Without the gift of rational thinking which comes from God, which is based in logic...
you literally cannot think.

Without logical understanding, you could not recognize a miracle right in front of you.
You literally would not be able to think.

All of your mental faculties, all of them, would simply shut down.

Your brain would be like a computer with no operating system.
It would just sit there and do nothing.

Without the impartation of logical reasoning, which comes from God, humans would have no ability to think.


Definitions:
So yes, this particular disagreement really does hearken back to definitions.
If you have the wrong definition of logic, then you have absolutely no idea that you're using logic ALL THE TIME, FOR EVERYTHING YOU DO.

You use logic to pray, to read the bible, to sing hymns, to recognize miracles, to minister to others, to share the gospel, to walk across the room... you use logical understanding for everything. You could not turn it off if you tried.

God cannot do a miracle unless he possesses logic as part of his eternal nature,
and you cannot recognize a miracle unless you are using the logical mind God has imparted to you.


Christians & Logic:
The reason Christians don't understand much about logic is because they aren't taught much about logic.
It isn't that people are stupid, it's just that this is a subject people tend to misunderstand because it is seldom taught or explained.

If it is seldom taught, then people shouldn't be terribly surprised if they have some misunderstandings about it.

This should be expected.

..
It is seldom understood from the religious side because the secular side rewrites definition or has a long history of trying to separate religion from all branches of science and understanding.

When in reality many of the greatest minds in history came from the religious.

Great explanation.
 

UnoiAmarah

Junior Member
Jul 28, 2017
109
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The context of Matt 19:23-30 involves whether it is possible for a rich man to be saved. It is impossible for anyone to be saved of their own internal resources and merits.
Saved from what exactly? If you say sin and death then are you saying we are still under the law of God since he who sins also transgresses the law for sin is the transgression of the law. And as far death, the living know they will die, but the dead know not anything.

As far as the possibility of a rich man being saved, see Matt 6:19-21

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,117
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Imputed righteousness logical?
The conception of Isaac, logical?
God calling things that are not as though they are, logical?

Miracles are not logical. For mud turning to life giving sight will never be by logic or human reasoning. And even seeing this, some will reason the source incorrectly.

I could mention another gift in the same vein, but I won’t.

Faith is substance in the spiritual realm. Is it logical?

Reasoning which is logic is of our humanity. Faith is not. It’s a gift given to us.

There is the natural in which we operate through our 5 senses. Not so with the heavenly. This is by Spirit.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Imputed righteousness logical?
The conception of Isaac, logical?
God calling things that are not as though they are, logical?

Miracles are not logical. For mud turning to life giving sight will never be by logic or human reasoning. And even seeing this, some will reason the source incorrectly.

I could mention another gift in the same vein, but I won’t.

Faith is substance in the spiritual realm. Is it logical?

Reasoning which is logic is of our humanity. Faith is not. It’s a gift given to us.

There is the natural in which we operate through our 5 senses. Not so with the heavenly. This is by Spirit.
You're using "logical" in the sense of "sensible to the common man". That is not the sense that it is being used by the OP in this thread.

If you use the term with the correct sense, all of those things you mentioned are perfectly logical.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Logos is the written word. I was answering the post about miracles. Just thought it would be obvious.
It’s rhema that’s Spirit which one cannot interpret Logos without accurately.

Obvious too by all the different doctrines.

And logic is just human reasoning.

We need both.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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The finite mind cannot begin to comprehend that which is infinite therefore within logic there is mystery.

One essence and three persons is something we can not fully grasp, it is above our capacity. This is true also with the two natures of Jesus being fully God and fully human.

This is why He is God, the One we worship. Anything we can fully comprehend wouldn't be that which we would worship.

Coming to that conclusion seems logical to me.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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The finite mind cannot begin to comprehend that which is infinite therefore within logic there is mystery.

One essence and three persons is something we can not fully grasp, it is above our capacity. This is true also with the two natures of Jesus being fully God and fully human.

This is why He is God, the One we worship. Anything we can fully comprehend wouldn't be that which we would worship.

Coming to that conclusion seems logical to me.
Yes, the finite mind CAN BEGIN to comprehend that which is infinite.
If not, God would not be able to communicate with us, and we'd have no understanding of God at all.

I think what you meant to say was that the finite mind cannot FULLY comprehend that which is infinite.

That is probably what you meant, and that would be more accurate.


Sometimes we get carried away with hyperbole, to make a point, and accidentally say something we didn't mean to say.

.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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Yes, the finite mind CAN BEGIN to comprehend that which is infinite.
If not, God would not be able to communicate with us, and we'd have no understanding of God at all.

I think what you meant to say was that the finite mind cannot FULLY comprehend that which is infinite.

That is probably what you meant, and that would be more accurate.


Sometimes we get carried away with hyperbole, to make a point, and accidentally say something we didn't mean to say.

.
Yes fully comprehend is exactly what i meant. Yes we can begin to. Thank you for the correction.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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Yes fully comprehend is exactly what i meant. Yes we can begin to. Thank you for the correction.
I think comprehension is a pretty strong word when it comes to bridging the gap of communication between the finite and the infinite. To say that we can even begin to comprehend that which is infinite suggests that we have some common frame of reference by which to establish such a link. I think the illustration of Moses in Exodus 33 is a perfect example of man's complete inability to even begin to comprehend that with which he has no point of reference to understand. God communicates with us on OUR level of comprehension. We do not communicate with God at his level of comprehension. This is why scripture so often describes God in anthropomorphic language. This is so that man can comprehend some things about the nature of God that we would not otherwise be able to grasp. This means that the true nature of God is beyond even our rudimentary understanding and is beyond the capabilities of human language to describe. It is impossible to comprehend that which one has no sufficient language to describe. This is why God speaks to us in scripture in terms familiar to us.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Logos is the written word. I was answering the post about miracles. Just thought it would be obvious.
It’s rhema that’s Spirit which one cannot interpret Logos without accurately.
And logic is just human reasoning.
Logos & Human Reasoning:


"Logos is the written word."
"And logic is just human reasoning."

It's funny you would make both of these statements in the same post.


The mere use of the word "logos" actually shows us that logic is more than just human reasoning.
How so?
Because Logos also means "logic".
Logos, the logic, the transcendent divine order, the transcendent divine mind, from which all order flows... "was made flesh".
Logos in Greek is a very complex word, and that's why John used it.

When it says the "logos" was made flesh, it doesn't just mean some written words on paper were made flesh.
That isn't what it means at all.
It means, essentially, the very essence or mind of God was incarnated as a human.

Logos, logic, is NOT human reasoning.
Christian theologians and philosophers understand, from both scripture and other means, that "logic" is eternal, and it is intrinsic to God's own divine nature and mind.

John called Christ, in his eternal state, the "logos"... and logos means both "word", and the "eternal and transcendent principle of logic."

Words:
What does it mean to be "the word"?
Think about it... what is a verbal word?
A word is a symbolic representation of THOUGHT, of MIND.
God's verbal words are the manifestation of God's MIND.
Minds and words are connected... they cannot be separated.
Christ can be called the "word" of God, because he shares the mind of God... the father and son are of the same mind and essence.

So it makes perfect sense to use this word "logos" for Christ.
He is the mind and logic of God... the essence of God... the eternal and divine.

Ancient Times vs Modern Times:
In ancient times, the word logic did not mean "mere human reasoning"... that's not what it meant.
In modern times, among Christians theologians, Christian philosophers, and even atheist philosophers... "logic" STILL does not mean "mere human reasoning." That's not what it means now either.

This is just never what the word has meant.

To this day, atheist scholars and philosophers STILL recognize that "logic" is something abstract and transcendent.
But the atheist scholars still believe it is some kind of eternal principle that has nothing to do with a God - while Christians know, in fact, it is some intrinsic part of the very nature and mind of God himself.

The LOGOS was made flesh:
Logos, in Greek, meant both:
a. words - which are representations of mind, and flow from mind
b. logic - which is the transcendent principle of eternal mind.

This is why John used the word Logos.
Christ, the logic of God, the very essence of God, was made flesh.

.
.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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I think comprehension is a pretty strong word when it comes to bridging the gap of communication between the finite and the infinite. To say that we can even begin to comprehend that which is infinite suggests that we have some common frame of reference by which to establish such a link. I think the illustration of Moses in Exodus 33 is a perfect example of man's complete inability to even begin to comprehend that with which he has no point of reference to understand. God communicates with us on OUR level of comprehension. We do not communicate with God at his level of comprehension. This is why scripture so often describes God in anthropomorphic language. This is so that man can comprehend some things about the nature of God that we would not otherwise be able to grasp. This means that the true nature of God is beyond even our rudimentary understanding and is beyond the capabilities of human language to describe. It is impossible to comprehend that which one has no sufficient language to describe. This is why God speaks to us in scripture in terms familiar to us.
Comprehend - Semantics & Distractions:

There is no need to get distracted by a semantic argument over the word "comprehend", which has little to do with the topic.

For the sake of argument, let's just replace it with a word we have no disagreement about.

Let's just replace the word "comprehend" with the word "understand."


Understand:
1. Humans can understand some things about the infinite, but not all things about the infinite.
2. Humans can understand some things about God, but not all things about God.

No reason to have a semantic argument.
I think we all agree on the two points above.

.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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Comprehend - Semantics & Distractions:

There is no need to get distracted by a semantic argument over the word "comprehend", which has little to do with the topic.

For the sake of argument, let's just replace it with a word we have no disagreement about.

Let's just replace the word "comprehend" with the word "understand."


Understand:
1. Humans can understand some things about the infinite, but not all things about the infinite.
2. Humans can understand some things about God, but not all things about God.

No reason to have a semantic argument.
I think we all agree on the two points above.

.
These are not semantics Max. Words have meaning, and I am not really sure what you think this distracting from, (if you will excuse me ending a sentence in a preposition). The only things we know about God are those things he has revealed to us through the language of scripture. That language use is profoundly limited in order to accommodate the limited capacity of the human mind.