Martin Luther - the founder of Protestantism: Anti-Semitic?

[RachelBibleStudent]

Please, that would be good. or even just send me the link if you like. Whatever's easier. Thanks.

decree of pope innocent iii...fourth council of the lateran...1215..."To anyone who for the recovery of the Holy Land either goes to war at his own expense or contributes something we grant forgiveness of all his sins, and promise him an increase of eternal salvation when the just are rewarded, that is, as others speak, that those who take the cross in order to fight against the infidels are given plenary indulgences from the Roman pontiff."

'cum postquam'...bull of pope leo x...november 1518..."The Roman pontiff, the vicar of Christ, by the power of the keys (with which he takes away the guilt and punishment owed for actual sins, the guilt by means of the sacrament of penance, the temporal punishment owed for actual sins according to divine justice by means of the ecclesiastical indulgence) is able for reasonable causes to grant to the faithful, whether they are in this life or in purgatory, indulgences from the superabundance of the merits of Christ and of the saints, for the living as well as for the dead, by his apostolic authority. He can confer this indulgence by means of absolution, or transfer it to others by means of their intercession. And therefore all, the living as well as the dead, are set free from punishment to an extent equal to the indulgence that has been granted and purchased."

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Rachel, please show me where they do contradict, and I'll show you how you're wrong. I hate talking about right and wrong because everybody has a different relationship with God, and I'm sick of us trying prove each other wrong. But I'm also sick of everyone thinking they know everything about the Catholic Church. Please, show me. God bless.

i didn't say they contradicted scripture...though i could argue that point if i wanted to...it would probably be fruitless though...

all i actually did was point out the circular logic...in believing that the roman church does not contradict scripture based on what the roman church claims scripture says...

by the same logic i could say...'darwin didn't actually believe in evolution...people may say he did but only because they misinterpret darwin...only i am qualified to interpret what darwin actually meant'

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

where, sis?

read what paul wrote about the berean christians...he admired them for always checking to make sure that what he taught agreed with scripture...

based on that passage it should be clear that paul regarded scripture as superior even to his apostolic authority...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

C'mon Rachel, that's just an outright arrogant thing to say. lol unbelievable

well it is true...

look at the history of the roman catholic church and you will see endless corruption at the highest levels...unheard of doctrines being newly invented...gaps and failures of apostolic succession...and so on...

throughout church history the roman church looks much more like a corrupt government than like the church jesus founded...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Just remember, just like the Catholic Church has faults, which you "exposed", so does Luther. But you seem to think that those of Luther are justified, and those of the Catholic Church are not.

i see one big difference...

most protestants recognize and disown the errors of luther and calvin and other reformers when roman catholics point them out...

most roman catholics either deny or defend the errors of rome when protestants point them out... i know you could argue that what protestants think are errors really aren't...but that would just be proving my point...

 

[7seven7]

decree of pope innocent iii...fourth council of the lateran...1215..."To anyone who for the recovery of the Holy Land either goes to war at his own expense or contributes something we grant forgiveness of all his sins, and promise him an increase of eternal salvation when the just are rewarded, that is, as others speak, that those who take the cross in order to fight against the infidels are given plenary indulgences from the Roman pontiff."

'cum postquam'...bull of pope leo x...november 1518..."The Roman pontiff, the vicar of Christ, by the power of the keys (with which he takes away the guilt and punishment owed for actual sins, the guilt by means of the sacrament of penance, the temporal punishment owed for actual sins according to divine justice by means of the ecclesiastical indulgence) is able for reasonable causes to grant to the faithful, whether they are in this life or in purgatory, indulgences from the superabundance of the merits of Christ and of the saints, for the living as well as for the dead, by his apostolic authority. He can confer this indulgence by means of absolution, or transfer it to others by means of their intercession. And therefore all, the living as well as the dead, are set free from punishment to an extent equal to the indulgence that has been granted and purchased."

Wow! All I can say is this. If this was meant to be taken at face value (and for the record, at first glance it seems so) then I agree with you that it was wrong. I have no arguments for this. God bless!!

But, at the risk that you will say that I'm making excuses for the Pope (which I'm not, as you can plainly see that I'm just trying to be fair here), There is a slight chance that - taking into consideration all the corruption that has taken place within the Church - that this letter was forged by corrupt clergy or members of the church. Please understand, I agree with you that this letter was wrong and shouldn't have been made. And I am shocked. I will look more into it. Thanks. Peace!

 

[7seven7]

i didn't say they contradicted scripture...though i could argue that point if i wanted to...it would probably be fruitless though...

all i actually did was point out the circular logic...in believing that the roman church does not contradict scripture based on what the roman church claims scripture says...

by the same logic i could say...'darwin didn't actually believe in evolution...people may say he did but only because they misinterpret darwin...only i am qualified to interpret what darwin actually meant'

Exactly the same theing can be said about every Church. That each church does not contradict Scripture based on what that particular Church claims scripture says...... can it??? That's why I keep saying that we will never come to agree on anything as Christians from different denominations because we all understand and interpret Scripture differently. Which is another reason why we shouldn't argue about it because hurtful things end up being said. If we must discuss, then lets discuss what we do agree on! Our love for our Lord and our thanks for our Salvation through Him.

 

[7seven7]

read what paul wrote about the berean christians...he admired them for always checking to make sure that what he taught agreed with scripture...

based on that passage it should be clear that paul regarded scripture as superior even to his apostolic authority...

Rachel, the Catholic Church never said that Scripture came second to anything else. Just that we look at Scripture AND Tradition instead of Scripture OR Tradition. The Bible IS superior to the Pope. Its the Word of God!! If it wasn't for Scripture, he would be very limited as to what he could lead in regards of. Does that make sense?

 

[7seven7]

well it is true...

look at the history of the roman catholic church and you will see endless corruption at the highest levels...unheard of doctrines being newly invented...gaps and failures of apostolic succession...and so on...

throughout church history the roman church looks much more like a corrupt government than like the church jesus founded...

I wont argue with the corruption. Not "endless", but corruption nevertheless. Which doctrines are you referring to when you say unheard of doctrines being newly invented. And "gaps and failures of apostolic succession."?? How do you mean?
Rachel, I just need you to be specific when making these points so I know how to answer.

Also, Can I just ask what denomination you belong to, please?

 

[7seven7]

i see one big difference...

most protestants recognize and disown the errors of luther and calvin and other reformers when roman catholics point them out...

most roman catholics either deny or defend the errors of rome when protestants point them out... i know you could argue that what protestants think are errors really aren't...but that would just be proving my point...

I like the fact that you said MOST when referring to the Protestants, because not all recognize and disown the errors of Luther. I'm not so sure about the Catholic part though. Speaking for myself and for most of the Catholics I fellowship with, I only defend what happens in the Vatican if you accuse it of being an error falsely, not knowing the full truth about the situation you refer to. If the error is true (e.g. corruption etc) then I will agree with you and follow it up if I can. Some of what Protestants claim about the Catholic Church are true, Rach. But not all. And to say that the Catholic Church is of Satan, which I have copped in here more times than I care to remember, is just rubbish and shouldn't be said. Really. There is so much about the Catholic Church's teachings that you and a lot of others don't know about, just like the teachings from the Protestants that I don't know about. We can sit here and argue for the rest of our lives about things we don't know everything about, and like you said, it would be fruitless. Or we could just sit in the corner and put our noses against the wall and count to a million Why did I say that? lol Anyway, we can all find contradictions and faults in other Churches. I, for one, would rather see the beauty in others and celebrate my love for Christ with them, like I do every now n then with my protestant brothers and sisters here in my area.

EternallyGratefull is waiting for my reply in private messages about John 6. Peace, and God bless. If you reply to me, I might take a while to answer coz I have to get to brother Eternally lol. Love you.

 

[crossnote]

So this is called "attacking", and all that rubbish bitterness and name calling in those other threads is called "exposing"? I see.
Just remember, just like the Catholic Church has faults, which you "exposed", so does Luther. But you seem to think that those of Luther are justified, and those of the Catholic Church are not. lol Now I see why I get told by Catholics and Protestants alike to stay away from forums like this. There's no fellowship here, just gangs full of self righteousness, my friend.

Touchy aren't we? I must have hit a nerve.Anyways I never justified Luther's attitude toward the Jews.
But it seemed like a couple of you weren't satisfied with our agreement that Luther had his faults but then you had to proceed to brand him as the worst heretic since Judas Iscariot. If you want to play the bashing game Rome is an easy target.

 

[7seven7]

Touchy aren't we? I must have hit a nerve.Anyways I never justified Luther's attitude toward the Jews.
But it seemed like a couple of you weren't satisfied with our agreement that Luther had his faults but then you had to proceed to brand him as the worst heretic since Judas Iscariot. If you want to play the bashing game Rome is an easy target.

lol did you think that was touchy? You haven't been out in the real world have you, brother? That nerve that you're talking about grew an immunity in my first week on this site I never branded Luther, just showed you guys that just like the Catholic Church's corruptions in the past, he had plenty of faults. You're right, Rome IS an easy target. Just like the devil wants. Easy for our brothers and sisters to start throwing stones. lol Grow up, mate. You're talking to adults now. God bless

 

[crossnote]

lol did you think that was touchy? You haven't been out in the real world have you, brother? That nerve that you're talking about grew an immunity in my first week on this site I never branded Luther, just showed you guys that just like the Catholic Church's corruptions in the past, he had plenty of faults. You're right, Rome IS an easy target. Just like the devil wants. Easy for our brothers and sisters to start throwing stones. lol Grow up, mate. You're talking to adults now. God bless

I've been around enough to know that smileys and lol's don't mix with insults. Keep it up.

 

[7seven7]

I've been around enough to know that smileys and lol's don't mix with insults. Keep it up.

peekaboo lol lol

 

[Skinski7]

Martin Luther Heresy = Salvation by faith (trust) in doctrines.

Catholic Church Heresy = Salvation by being a good Catholic and participating in the sacraments.




True Christianity = Salvation by a "faith that works by love" which is produced through submission (wrought by godly sorrow + repentance) to the grace of God whereby the energy of God brings life to the inner man (heart/spirit) who has had their conscience cleansed of sin by the blood of Christ.


All false systems of theology leave people inwardly defiled and still dead in their sins. No heart purity = No salvation.

 

[Tintin]

Salvation by faith alone is not trusting in doctrine but the saving grace of Jesus Christ our Lord. Repentance goes hand-in-hand with believing on Christ.

 

[zone]

Touchy aren't we? I must have hit a nerve.Anyways I never justified Luther's attitude toward the Jews.
But it seemed like a couple of you weren't satisfied with our agreement that Luther had his faults but then you had to proceed to brand him as the worst heretic since Judas Iscariot. If you want to play the bashing game Rome is an easy target.

You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.

 

[zone]

7seven7....in your discussion with Rachel:

 

[Maynard]

The only people who got "pwnd" in this thread, zone, are Martin Luther, yourself, and everyone else here who justifies antisemitism and even propagate it as you do.
Hatemongers. It's disgusting. God forgive you.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Exactly the same theing can be said about every Church. That each church does not contradict Scripture based on what that particular Church claims scripture says...... can it??? That's why I keep saying that we will never come to agree on anything as Christians from different denominations because we all understand and interpret Scripture differently.

i see another big difference here...

most protestant churches do not claim sole right to interpret scripture...the roman catholic church and a few others do...

in other words the roman catholic church is one of the few churches that claims to be sole custodian of the very thing that can verify or disprove their claims...and that is why i called the situation 'fox guarding the hen house'...