misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

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M

Matt210

Guest
You cannot pray THROUGH someone.. that's like trying to get to God by going through anyone other than Jesus..
[h=1]Job 42:10English Standard Version (ESV)[/h][h=3]The Lord Restores Job's Fortunes[/h]10 And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

English Standard Version (ESV)The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers.

Job 42:10 in all English translations

Alright, I challenge anyone to address this one. This is not a quote from a Catholic Bible, I am using the mistranslated version of the ESV, it contradicts what you just said
 
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49

Guest
Ok, we are finally going in the right direction. JesusLives posted very reasonable questions about the Catholic Church without making anything up. I will do my best to explain what faithful Catholics believe on each question.

Purgatory is something that I personally struggle with the concept of. It is very confusing to me. Back in the early days of the Church they preached something called Limbo, which meant something similar. Purgatory is a "place" where God cleanses you of your sins to make you perfect in order to see Him. It is very complicated and it is NOT a belief that Catholics must entrust. It is our best understanding of the subject. If you don't believe me, PLEASE READ THE CATHECISM.a

Next point, confession. Here is a Bible quote:
Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23

I continue to ask which Bible we are reading, this is CRUCIAL. I can quote my Bible all day on confession, but if we are reading different Bibles, this conversation is useless.

Infant Baptism, I don't wish to address this right now, might be the easiest to refute, but the sources are so easily accessed that I challenge you to look up the actual Church's teachings.

With regards to Mary, we DO NOT WORSHIP HER.

I will recite what we pray THROUGH Her.

"Hail Mary" we acknowledge that she is the Mother of our Lord. "Full of Grace" would God not send his Son to someone full of His Grace? "The Lord Be With You", do Christians not wish the Lord to be with His mother. This part is also Biblical and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong, but I digress.

"Blessed art thou amongst Women" is the mother our Lord not the most blessed of all women, this is also Biblical as St. Elizabeth explicitly states this in the Bible.

"And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus". Our Lord came from Our Mother. Indisputable.

"Holy Mary", She is holy, we can't dispute this either.

"Mother of God" I challenge anyone to argue this.

"Pray for us sinners, now and at the our of our death". This is interesting. Has anyone on this website ever asked somebody to pray for them. The answer is YES. Why can't Catholics ask the mother of our Lord to pray for them. If Christ will listen to any of us, I would think that the person he holds in the highest esteem is his mother. For those of you that have never asked anyone to pray for you, I suppose you will not understand.

Here is the full Prayer:

Hail Mary Full of Grace, The Lord Is With Thee
Blessed Are Though Amongst Women,
And Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus
Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us Sinners
Now and at the Hour of our Death, Amen
How can Mary pray for you when she is dead?
 
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49

Guest
We can talk all day, but again the most important question is standing out in an embarrassing manner. WHO ASSEMBLED THE BIBLE? should I use larger font to catch someone's attention?
The Bible was written, not assembled.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
The Holy Spirit did through men. :)
Which men and when? again I do not expect a response.

There are two alternatives. You will uncover Truth and be scared. Or be lazy and continue to dodge the question out of fear of being wrong.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
The Bible was written, not assembled.
There are many books that were left out from the start, during the protestant reformation in the 1500's they dropped 7 more books. So, Yes it was assembled.

Prove me wrong.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
I'm going to use my "mind reading powers" and show you that we will not hear a coherent answer from 49.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
Thank you for proving my point, you are welcome to try a coherent answer though.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
49, when did the Bible appear to the human race, and which humans decided which books to include and exclude? how did they make these decisions? I am looking for names and years. I thank you in advance for your non-answer, if you look it up you will be sad.
 
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Matt210

Guest
I will use my mind reading powers again, 49 says that Catholic worship statues, but refuses to answer the question.
 
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49

Guest
Not interested; not here to argue. But, where did 49 say Catholics worship statues? Haven't you been here under another username though?
 
M

Matt210

Guest
Ok people, I have found someone that can describe this dilemma more eloquently than myself.

Protestants do not necessrily 'hate' Catholics.But fundamentalism, which I was briefly part of, generally does.
Here's and old blog post I wrote:

Fundamentalism and Hate.
Fundamentalism is built upon schism and as such is a breeding ground for one of the deepest of human sins: hate.
This was a hard fact that I did not see at first, looking at it in hindsight, now I can see it. It just wasn’t hate towards Catholics, it was a hate directed toward anyone who was not like them.
My first shock came in my first pastorate, when I encountered Christians who were sympathetic to the Ku Klux Klan. They reasoned (a few preachers I talked to were also were of this opinion), the KKK was a “Christian organization”. Later, I would discover many of the Fundamentalist heroes of the past were VERY sympathetic to the Klan. William Bell Reilly, Bob Jones Sr. (one of the buildings on his campus is named after a Klan grand dragon), Bob Schuler, Frank Norris and others.
This was very disturbing to me because I knew it was wrong to support hate.
To even suggest starting a church in a black neighborhood drew blank stares. “Why?”, would often be the answer, “They have there own churches!! A black fundamentalist needs to be in a black neighborhood.” When a black family tried to join our fundamentalist church, they were told “you’re going to take over this church!!” We never saw them again.
There was also class hatred. A preacher told me once not to pursue those who were in a lower income bracket because “Birds of a feather flock together”, and would not “fit” into the church.
They can be most hateful toward each other. Churches split and then the splits split into even smaller groups. The splits, most of the time, have to do with personality conflicts within the congregation.
If the preacher has a particularly charismatic personality, he can easily lead followers away from the offending church to start a new church. The bitterness toward the splitting churches can become almost violent in its passion, and in a few incident does indeed become violent.
For fundamentalism was birthed from division, and it’s offspring continue to divide.
Worst of all is the irrational, vitriolic, bordering on insane HATE of the Catholic Church. This I did not see, or apparently mind much. I truly hated the Church that “sent my father to Hell”. The preachers would proudly proclaim the “Roman Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon!! The Pope is the anti-Christ!!” Never mind that neither of these views can be proved from scripture.
I am NOT saying ALL fundamentalists hate. I AM saying the culture that surrounds it tends to feed it.
Generally you find people, of any group, are haters because they cannot intellectually or spiritually overcome an emotional response. They are satisfied not questioning the status quo. Once one starts questioning, the claws and fangs come out and they act, quite frankly, unchristian.
It's easy to throw out meaningless and uneducated statements like: 'the Pope is the antichrist!! The RCC is the great whore!!'. It arouses the emotions of the crowd and they scream AMEN!! without ever questioning the statement. Sadder still is finding Bible verses to 'justify' the hate. Claiming we are 'commanded' to hate.
I'm not using the word “hate” as in the common usage of today. Disagreement does not equal hate. Hate is spawned out of fear. You hate and fear what you know or think you know. The scary thing is, many cannot see it, deny it's there, or use a different word for it ("we're 'fighting' fundamentalists"). Hate, if left unchecked and not repented of, will do physical as well as mental and spiritual damage.
It's easy to say 'well God hates'. What God 'hates' are things that oppose His holiness. His 'hate' is not stained with sin. Human hate, is stained with sin because we are fallen creatures. To invoke God in our hatred is to find a 'holy' excuse for our sinful expression. God's 'hate' works toward redemption, not destruction. Human hate only wishes to divide, ridicule and destroy in an attempt to prove Genesis 3 correct: we can be as God.Perhaps the underlying problems fundamentalists find themselves in have their roots in the hate that is produced.
If that is so, can it be called truly Christian?
 
M

Matt210

Guest
Not interested; not here to argue. But, where did 49 say Catholics worship statues? Haven't you been here under another username though?
I have not been here under any other name, but thank you for proving my point.

Do you ever wonder why you can't answer these questions?
 
L

Loco

Guest
Words require definition. Fundamentalists as defined in this website does not mean hate.

I am a fundamentalist, by the definitions of this website, by the definitions of the articles that initially coined the term in the 1800s and by self-description.

My wife, who calls herself a Roman Catholic, is also a fundamentalist by the same definitions. Granted, she is a inconsistent, as she believes in all the Reformation Solas and has no belief in Papal infallibility, the bodily assumption or immaculate conception of Mary and many other things, but, being a woman, self-consistency is not of much interest to her.

As to myself, I practice infant baptism as do many fundamentalist Presbyterians (check out PCA and OPC denominations).

Now, it is true that because of the emotional baggage associated with the word "fundamentalist" a lot of fundamentalists do not like the term. Personally I refuse to let the world redefine a well-defined word by a consistent smear campaign. The word "evangelical" which many prefer or even "born again" is not good enough. There is no question that a man like CS Lewis or Grecham Machem were "born again" but they both believed Darwinian pseudo-science. Evangelical is an even worse term, today having almost no meaning left.

I am a fundamentalist, and I do not hate the Roman "catholic" Church which I still consider a Christian institution. However, like any institution, the Romanist is full of non-Christians. I dare say less than half of any people in any denomination are actually Christian. Rome, as messed up as it is, is in better shape than most Presbyterians (check out the abomination that is the PC-USA). Will that continue under the current "pope" Francis? I don't know, the man is so far worse than the previous 2 "popes" he may just destroy what is left of this Christian Church. Irish St. Malachy predicted Pope Francis will be last pope - IrishCentral.com

Whatever one thinks of Malachy and eschatology, I find it fascinating to watch current Romanists who do believe in the Malacy prophecy, most of whom are very conservative, as "pope" Francis tries to swerve the Roman Church into liberalism.

JR
 
M

Matt210

Guest
Thank you JR or Loco.

I disagree with your viewpoints, but you made a respectable and what seemed like an honest statement. I feel that the Truth will be revealed through honest, objective dialogue. Thank you for adding light to this conversation.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
I offer another viewpoint for everyone to contemplate.

1.2 Billion Catholics in the world.

800 million Protestants (combining the over 5000 denominations and non-denominations)

Why would the Lord allow such a discrepancy?

If you wish to use the argument of the anti-christ, you need to show a basic understanding of the most complicating book and most mistranslated book. Even in its English translation, if you wish to take the book of Revelation literally, I assume that you take every other book literally. The Bible is absolute gibberish if you refuse to take into account the context. The OT and NT do not add up if you take every phrase literally, again with the context.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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1.2 Billion Catholics in the world. 800 million Protestants
Quantity does not make quality.

I know one person who was Presbyterian who became Catholic and is happy. I know hundreds of people who were Catholic and are now Christian, (Protestant) and they rejoice in their new found relationship with God because now they're taught the Truthful beauty of God's saving grace in Jesus Christ.

I also know thousands of heavily burdened souls who want nothing to do with the Gospel whatsoever because of their experience being beaten down week in and week out by the Catholic church. No grace; its so sad.

There's no retort; this is the hard truth concerning people with whom I've had contact.

I wish it weren't so.
 
M

Matt210

Guest
I am trying every angle possible at this point to allow some of you guys to understand.

Lutheranism- 1517, Martin Luther

Swiss Reformed Church- 1523, Zwingli

Mennonites- 1525, no known founder

Anglicans- 1534, King Henry the VIII

Calvinists- 1536, John Calvin

Presbyterians- 1560, John Knox

Baptists- 1605, John Smyth

etc. etc. etc.

Mormons- 1830, Joseph Smith

Jehovah's Witness- 1870, Charles Russell

Seventh Day Adventist- 1860, Ellen White (along with a few others) you guys really scare me, you are a cult

Pentecostals- 1900, Charles Parham

etc. etc. etc.

Catholicism- 0, Jesus Christ
 
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Technically the Mennonites are Anabaptists and were founded in the 900s, though honestly they were a group sympathetic to Hus, but were no Hussites (Moravians).
 
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Show me Book, Chapter, and verse Matt210 in the Scriptures where the Holy Spirit says there is a Purgatory!

Did you know Matt210 that even the Catholic Church admits there is no evidence for Purgatory?

Also Matt210 that which you pray to is your god. Praying through Mary makes her your god which is Idolatry and will keep you from Inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 4:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

ONLY God shall you Worship and serve Matt210, not God and Mary.

Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Praying through Mary is Idolatry and NO one who practices Idolatry will inherit the Kingdom of God Matt210, not even you.