misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[Matt210]

Technically the Mennonites are Anabaptists and were founded in the 900s, though honestly they were a group sympathetic to Hus, but were no Hussites (Moravians).

You're probably correct, I have never actually understood the Ansbaptists or the many offshoots that came from them. Its kind of the point I'm trying to make though, it is impossible to count the number of times protestants decide that they don't find the Bible convenient to their lifestyle and decide to change it to fit their wants.

 

[epostle]

Words require definition. Fundamentalists as defined in this website does not mean hate.

I am a fundamentalist, by the definitions of this website, by the definitions of the articles that initially coined the term in the 1800s and by self-description.

My wife, who calls herself a Roman Catholic, is also a fundamentalist by the same definitions. Granted, she is a inconsistent, as she believes in all the Reformation Solas and has no belief in Papal infallibility, the bodily assumption or immaculate conception of Mary and many other things, but, being a woman, self-consistency is not of much interest to her.

As to myself, I practice infant baptism as do many fundamentalist Presbyterians (check out PCA and OPC denominations).

Now, it is true that because of the emotional baggage associated with the word "fundamentalist" a lot of fundamentalists do not like the term. Personally I refuse to let the world redefine a well-defined word by a consistent smear campaign. The word "evangelical" which many prefer or even "born again" is not good enough. There is no question that a man like CS Lewis or Grecham Machem were "born again" but they both believed Darwinian pseudo-science. Evangelical is an even worse term, today having almost no meaning left.

I am a fundamentalist, and I do not hate the Roman "catholic" Church which I still consider a Christian institution. However, like any institution, the Romanist is full of non-Christians. I dare say less than half of any people in any denomination are actually Christian. Rome, as messed up as it is, is in better shape than most Presbyterians (check out the abomination that is the PC-USA). Will that continue under the current "pope" Francis? I don't know, the man is so far worse than the previous 2 "popes" he may just destroy what is left of this Christian Church. Irish St. Malachy predicted Pope Francis will be last pope - IrishCentral.com

Whatever one thinks of Malachy and eschatology, I find it fascinating to watch current Romanists who do believe in the Malacy prophecy, most of whom are very conservative, as "pope" Francis tries to swerve the Roman Church into liberalism.

JR

The prophecies of St. Malachy are forgeries and were never endorsed by the Church, they are not accepted by educated Catholics. Pope Francis the last Pope? yea, right. so was Pope Benedict 16. So was Pope John Paul II... the idiocy never ends.
long answer How Reliable Is the St. Malachy Prophecy?

short answer Do the prophecies of St. Malachy suggest we are living in the end times? | Catholic Answers

Pope Francis a liberal? Ridiculous. He is above politics. He teaches Catholic social justice, nothing more, nothing less.

Social justice is an integral part of Church teaching. It is based on the rights that flow from and safeguard human dignity, and it inclines us to work with others to help make social institutions better serve the common good. In the section on Christian morality entitled “The Human Community,” the Catechism of the Catholic Church devotes an entire section (1928-48) specifically to the topic of social justice. Similarly, the 2004 Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, which gives a magnificent overview of the wider topic of the Church’s social doctrine, further elaborates upon the concept of social justice:

The Church’s social magisterium constantly calls for the most classical forms of justice to be respected: commutative, distributive, and legal justice. Ever greater importance has been given to social justice, which represents a real development in general justice, the justice that regulates social relationships according to the criterion of observance of the law. Social justice, a requirement related to the social question which today is worldwide in scope, concerns the social, political, and economic aspects and, above all, the structural dimension of problems and their respective solutions. (201)

Social Justice Isn’t Left or Right | Catholic Answers

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[Josefnospam]

You worship Mary as a god but she needs the same savior all men do. That is Jesus Christ...................and he alone is God

 

[epostle]

You worship Mary as a god but she needs the same savior all men do. That is Jesus Christ...................and he alone is God

Accusing Catholics of Mary worship is ignorant sadistic hate speech. It's a sin and you need to stop.

 

[posthuman]

Accusing Catholics of Mary worship is ignorant sadistic hate speech. It's a sin and you need to stop.

i hate to see things like this:



does that seem right?

 

[WarriorForChrist]

i hate to see things like this:

View attachment 141928

does that seem right?

Yep, looks like worship to me.

 

[posthuman]

Yep, looks like worship to me.

yeah. i don't want to get embroiled in argument, but it's just that the idea of bowing in front of a statue and praying to someone other than God seems to me to go a bit beyond "honoring" a person.

sure and that doesn't go for every Catholic, i hope.

 

[posthuman]

we as believers - whatever human church affiliation, if we must have such things, though i don't believe we must - should not even give the appearance of idolatry.

does that seem right?

because setting aside the question of whether 'catholics worship mary' is true or not, the appearance of it is certainly real. i hope that we all​ encourage each other against such things.

 

[epostle]

we as believers - whatever human church affiliation, if we must have such things, though i don't believe we must - should not even give the appearance of idolatry.

does that seem right?

because setting aside the question of whether 'catholics worship mary' is true or not, the appearance of it is certainly real. i hope that we all​ encourage each other against such things.

Preconceived notions are born from superficial appearances and ignorance. Nobody is worshiping a piece of stone. The prayers do not end there, contrary to what you might see in a movie.

"...It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues...

...People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues...

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4)...

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Scripture Catholic - IMAGES AND STATUES, RELICS & HOLY WATER

 

[WarriorForChrist]

Preconceived notions are born from superficial appearances and ignorance. Nobody is worshiping a piece of stone. The prayers do not end there, contrary to what you might see in a movie.

"...It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues...

...People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues...

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4)...

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

Scripture Catholic - IMAGES AND STATUES, RELICS & HOLY WATER

Bowing down to a statue of Mary and a statue of the Pope is worship of that person.

 

[posthuman]

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

they looked at the bronze serpent.

they did not bow before it and did not pray to it nor to a serpent that the image was meant to represent.

at what point should we, like Hezekiah, start tearing down both the physical and meta "image" of Mary? maybe when folks start praying to her, instead of to God? i don't think we need iconoclasm - and i'm not suggesting it; Solomon's temple was decorated within and without with pictures of angels, pomegranates and palm trees - in order to address giving the appearance of evil.

if an idolater is someone who 'transfers his notion of God to anything else' -- then what is it to claim that Mary (or any other 'saint') hears prayers, that Mary (or the pope or any other 'saint') intercedes for us at the throne, or that Mary was sinless for all of her life? if 'educated catholics' don't believe this, then i think they ought to spend some effort educating the rest of them, don't you? because the perception, and the appearance, certainly exist.

 

[epostle]

Bowing down to a statue of Mary and a statue of the Pope is worship of that person.

No, it is not. Not all bowing is worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

they looked at the bronze serpent.

they did not bow before it and did not pray to it nor to a serpent that the image was meant to represent.

But they were healed when they looked at it. And what was it that the bronze serpent represented???

at what point should we, like Hezekiah, start tearing down both the physical and meta "image" of Mary?

Ask a Satanist, we have similar problems with them.

maybe when folks start praying to her, instead of to God?

It's either you refuse to understand, or are incapable due to blind prejudice. Mary is not an obstacle to God anymore than she is an obstacle to her Son coming into the world.

i don't think we need iconoclasm - and i'm not suggesting it; Solomon's temple was decorated within and without with pictures of angels, pomegranates and palm trees - in order to address giving the appearance of evil.

What would be an appearance of evil in the Temple??? Bare white walls?

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God. This is what you don't understand.


Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

if an idolater is someone who 'transfers his notion of God to anything else' -- then what is it to claim that Mary (or any other 'saint') hears prayers, that Mary (or the pope or any other 'saint') intercedes for us at the throne, or that Mary was sinless for all of her life? if 'educated catholics' don't believe this, then i think they ought to spend some effort educating the rest of them, don't you? because the perception, and the appearance, certainly exist.

So what. You can think any misperception you want. Sorry, but the picture as posted above is totally lacking on context or anything that would give it devotional meaning. No matter how you twist it, Catholics don't worship statues. In fact, we joke about such stupid conclusions.
There are lots of good resources that explain things that you listed.

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

How can the saints in heaven hear us? | Catholic Answers

Obviously, you have not read any of my previous links or you wouldn't be making this post. You are not the least bit interested in finding out what Catholics really believe, but quick to throw up false accusations. So be it. Maybe other readers will be open minded enough to receive good explanations. Each page in those links has a search engine. You can look up just about anything.

 

[posthuman]

what if protestants made statues of Martin Luther and bowed in front of them, and prayed to Martin Luther asking him to pray to God for us?

would that be a wise idea? would the practice be well-received? would criticism be justified?

 

[posthuman]

maybe when folks start praying to her, instead of to God?

It's either you refuse to understand, or are incapable due to blind prejudice.

maybe we've got something in common then.

does it not bother your conscience at all to pray to a human, or to consider any human a mediator between you and God, having come to the knowledge that Christ is come that through Him we may all directly approach the Father?

it does, mine. and i wonder if you don't understand that, or are incapable of understanding the objection.

 

[blondieindahouse]

No, it is not. Not all bowing is worship.
Rev. 3:9 - Jesus said people would bow down before the faithful members of the church of Philadelphia. This bowing before the faithful is not worship, just as kissing a picture of a family member is not worship.
Gen. 19:1 - Lot bowed down to the ground in veneration before two angels in Sodom.
Gen. 24:52 - Abraham's servant bowed himself to the earth before the Lord.
Gen. 42:6 - Joseph's brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground.
Jos. 5:14 - Joshua fell to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel.
1 Sam. 28:14 - Saul bows down before Samuel with his face to the ground in honor and veneration.
1 Kings 1:23 - the prophet Nathan bows down before King David.
2 Kings 2:15 - the sons of the prophets bow down to Elisha at Jericho.
1 Chron. 21:21 - Ornan the Jebusite did obeisance to king David with his face to the ground.
1 Chron. 29:20 - Israelites bowed down to worship God and give honor to the king.
2 Chron. 29:29-30 - King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offerings.
Tobit 12:16 - Tobiah and Tobit fell down to the ground in veneration before the angel Raphael.
Judith 14:7 - Achior the Ammonite kneels before Judith venerating her and praising God.
Psalm 138:2 - David bows down before God's Holy Temple.
Dan. 2:46 - the king fell down on his face paying homage to Daniel and commands that an offering be made to him.
Dan. 8:17 - Daniel fell down prostrate in veneration before the angel Gabriel.

they looked at the bronze serpent.

But they were healed when they looked at it. And what was it that the bronze serpent represented???

Ask a Satanist, we have similar problems with them. It's either you refuse to understand, or are incapable due to blind prejudice. Mary is not an obstacle to God anymore than she is an obstacle to her Son coming into the world. What would be an appearance of evil in the Temple??? Bare white walls?

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God. This is what you don't understand.


Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.



So what. You can think any misperception you want. Sorry, but the picture as posted above is totally lacking on context or anything that would give it devotional meaning. No matter how you twist it, Catholics don't worship statues. In fact, we joke about such stupid conclusions.
There are lots of good resources that explain things that you listed.

Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

How can the saints in heaven hear us? | Catholic Answers

Obviously, you have not read any of my previous links or you wouldn't be making this post. You are not the least bit interested in finding out what Catholics really believe, but quick to throw up false accusations. So be it. Maybe other readers will be open minded enough to receive good explanations. Each page in those links has a search engine. You can look up just about anything.

Look! Its not rocket science to learn what RC believe and the man made traditions you follow.
Your argument of : If you only understood.................is quite frankly insulting.

We know okay! We know you are deceived into thinking that you are saved as a baby when baptized! We know RC changed the ten commandments to go with your false religion! We know RC added and took away from scripture!

We know you pray to mary to intercede. We know you work to be saved. We know you practice liturgy of eucharist which is blasphemy! We know you pray repetitous prayers with the rosary. We know that the Pope is NOT the vicar of Christ .

We know Christ is the rock and not Peter. We know Peter wasnt the first priest. We know the RC church isnt the true church. We know that going to a little box and confessing to a man is outrageous. We know why God wants man to marry and not deceive himself into a chast lifestyle. That lifestyle has brought perverts with long fancy robes hasnt it?

We know the vatican is the institution for satan! We know the vatican is a government unto itself and the lies and deception go back centuries. We know the connection between the jesuits,free masons and the RC. We know the catholics burned protestants at the stake because they wanted the Bible avail to all. God doesnt exist in the RC church! It is a figment of your imagination. It is a man made christ you have likened unto yourself. WE KNOW!

We also know that God can drag you out of that church and save you ! But will he? We know that it is God that reigns over all things. I pray that one day YOU KNOW that Gods mercy has sustained you thus far.............Tic toc ...when will you repent and turn?

 

[epostle]

what if protestants made statues of Martin Luther and bowed in front of them, and prayed to Martin Luther asking him to pray to God for us?

It doesn't work that way. Protestants have no canonization process. Prayers to Martin Luther would have to be approved by a liturgical authority, which Protestants don't have. Again, bowing and praying is not always worship. I went over the bowing already. You use "pray" in the context of a verb. We use it in the context of an adverb. Such as in old English, "I pray thee, pass the salt."

How many Catholic prayers have you seen in the last few years?

would that be a wise idea? would the practice be well-received? would criticism be justified?

It's a lousy comparison.

does it not bother your conscience at all to pray to a human, or to consider any human a mediator between you and God,

Stop right there. Jesus is sole mediator between God and man because he is the sole Person who is both. It is a doctrine you borrowed from the Catholic Church. There is not a single official document in the 2000 year history of the Church that elevates the Blessed Virgin Mary to that position, and I challenge you to find it. Yet the drum keeps beating on...

having come to the knowledge that Christ is come that through Him we may all directly approach the Father?

I have no problem with this statement, but Jesus founded a Church to teach about Christ, not what individuals think.

it does, mine. and i wonder if you don't understand that, or are incapable of understanding the objection.

I understand the objection, it's the list of obstacles that have popped up in the last few hundred years. They are the hardest to overcome, and they weren't around at the beginning of Christianity.

 

[posthuman]

It doesn't work that way. Protestants have no canonization process. Prayers to Martin Luther would have to be approved by a liturgical authority, which Protestants don't have.

oh so it's cool to supplicate before and pray to a human, as long as you have a process and a board of directors?

you're weird, man. like, far out.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Job 42:10English Standard Version (ESV)

The Lord Restores Job's Fortunes

10 And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

English Standard Version (ESV)The Holy Bible, English Standard Version Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers.

Job 42:10 in all English translations

Alright, I challenge anyone to address this one. This is not a quote from a Catholic Bible, I am using the mistranslated version of the ESV, it contradicts what you just said

It doesn't contradict ANYTHING I said.. God restored Job's fortune..he didn't restore it THROUGH him..and "prayed for" does NOT mean "prayed THROUGH".

 

[posthuman]

really, that is just trippy.

i float the idea of idolizing a man, and his objection is that the proper paperwork hasn't been filed?

 

[posthuman]

Stop right there. Jesus is sole mediator between God and man because he is the sole Person who is both. It is a doctrine you borrowed from the Catholic Church.

eh, no, i get this from 1 Timothy 2:5

There is not a single official document in the 2000 year history of the Church that elevates the Blessed Virgin Mary to that position, and I challenge you to find it.

Salve Regina, Mater misericordiae. Vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve. Ad te clamamus exsules filii Hevae. Ad te Suspiramus, gementes et flentes in hac lacrimarum valle. Eia ergo, Advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Iesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende. O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.
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ring a bell?