misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[epostle]

Both you fordman and epostle worship God in vain because both of you teach as doctrines the commandments of men in the Catholic Church.

God has refused to listen to your prayer to Him epostle. God has refused to listen to your prayers fordman.

When will the two of you ever realize you are listening to the lies of Satan?

As it stands right now, God cannot allow either one of you to enter into the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 9:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’?
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.”

Mark 3:28 (ESV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] “Truly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the children of man, and whatever blasphemies they utter,

God has the Authority to forgive ALL our sins!

So tell me fordman and epostle, for which sins that God has not forgiven us will you need to spend time in Purgatory for?

Or could it be both of you believe that God is powerless in forgiving us of all our sins?

It's not our fault you refuse to read. If you refuse to read, why are you here? Good explanations, though not exhaustive, have been given, it's your blind prejudice that keeps you from comprehending the scriptural, historical, archaeological and Judaic evidence. Purgatory has nothing to do with unforgiven sins, which proves your stubborn ignorance, embracing Martin Luther's opinions against the obvious facts. You may reject Martin Luther (typical of protesting Protestants) but you still follow his errors of sola scriptura and his rejection of purgatory that he invented in the 15th century. Why it took so long for the so called "truth" to come forth is anybody's guess. BTW, Martin Luther hated Jews.

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven. This is important to understand.
Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself.

For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession and be absolved of that sin. Jesus paid the price for my sin. But......... the window is STILL broken. The broken window is the "consequence" of my sin and it still needs to be repaired. The Cross does not repair the window, that is my responsibility.

Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the broken windows in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.

As to why Purgatory? The answer is love. We cannot enter heaven unless we are perfected and totally holy. While we may die in a state of grace most of us are probably not perfect. Purgatory is a place of perfection. It purges the imperfections from us 'til what is left is pure gold.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 is a great definition of Purgatory:

12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it,because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

In other words, how well we lived our lives as Christians will be judged,the good works and not-so-good works will be judge. The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging.The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.

We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed. We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire. Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.

Again,this is NOT about purging sin, it is about purging the consequences of sin (paying for the broken windows) and about purging our imperfections in living the Christ-life.
. The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging. The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.

We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed. We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire. Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.

Again, this is NOT about purging sin, it is about purging the consequences of sin (paying for the broken windows) and about purging our imperfections in living the Christ-life.

Some Protestants call this the "Judgment Seat of Christ". Our salvation is not being judged here, rather how well we lived our life for Christ is being judged. While some Evangelicals refer to this as Judgment Seat of Christ and Catholics call it Purgatory, it is the same thing.

 

[KennethC]

Go back and read post#410


Pax Christi

Read it and shows the falsehood in the thinking because the verses provided from Jesus have nothing to do with Purgatory.

If that was the case you would have the Lord's own words contradicting themselves which can not happen, as Jesus showed clearly that if you are not saved before you die there is no escaping punishment afterwards.

The whole Purgatory stance has a unsaved person purged of sins and saved after death, which is a false teaching.........

 

[Vdp]

When a person believes that Jesus Christ is God and confess with his mouth that Jesus is God, he receives Salvation and the Blood of Jesus cleanses us of all our sins.

Romans 10:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Ephesians 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

The problem with Catholicism is it teaches we can lose our Salvation just by sinning.

We did NOT receive our Salvation by Not sinning! We received Salvation by Believing!

This is the major problem with Catholicism. It actually teaches the opposite of what God says.

Show me fordman and epostle where we received our Salvation by not sinning? Show me book, chapter and verse where God says we are saved by NOT sinning!

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Here God is clearly saying we receive Salvation by Believing.

This is why the Catholics like epostle and fordman see no problem with calling God a liar and see no problem with teaching what Satan says as the Gospel from God.

So who exactly are the Catholics epostle and fordman following? I can tell just from listening to them that they are not following God. Because God NEVER said we can lose our Salvation by sinning!

Repent epostle, repent fordman before its too late and you end up with Satan for all eternity!

Clearly Catholicism is teaching a different gospel!

 

[MikeHenderson]

I find it very sad that the Catholics refuse to follow Jesus and His teachings. I find it very sad that the Catholics see nothing wrong with teaching the doctrines of Satan.

When Jesus died on the Cross His Blood washes us clean of ALL our sins. But yet the Catholics love to teach there are sins we do that were never washed clean by the Blood of Jesus.

The example of the window by epostle proves he do not believe that the Blood of Jesus has washed us clean of all our sins. He actually believes its by his own efforts that he by himself can actually cleanse himself of his sins by spending time in Purgatory.

Epostle has put himself above God by claiming he can cleanse himself of his sins in Purgatory, sins that God cannot cleanse from him by the Blood of Jesus.

Do you see how epostle has put himself above God!

This is why today Catholis are not true believers and are not True Christians.

Its Catholicism that epostle follows, not Jesus. Its Catholicism that is the god epostle follows, not Jesus.

We are to reject epostle and fordman and refuse to buy into their lies.

Only God are we to Worship and follow and only God has the Truth.

We are to reject Catholicism and follow what the Holy Spirit says in the Scriptures only.

 

[KennethC]

When a person believes that Jesus Christ is God and confess with his mouth that Jesus is God, he receives Salvation and the Blood of Jesus cleanses us of all our sins.

Romans 10:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Ephesians 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

The problem with Catholicism is it teaches we can lose our Salvation just by sinning.

We did NOT receive our Salvation by Not sinning! We received Salvation by Believing!

This is the major problem with Catholicism. It actually teaches the opposite of what God says.

Show me fordman and epostle where we received our Salvation by not sinning? Show me book, chapter and verse where God says we are saved by NOT sinning!

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Here God is clearly saying we receive Salvation by Believing.

This is why the Catholics like epostle and fordman see no problem with calling God a liar and see no problem with teaching what Satan says as the Gospel from God.

So who exactly are the Catholics epostle and fordman following? I can tell just from listening to them that they are not following God. Because God NEVER said we can lose our Salvation by sinning!

Repent epostle, repent fordman before its too late and you end up with Satan for all eternity!

Clearly Catholicism is teaching a different gospel!

I don't agree with Catholic dogma's, but as for not ending up with salvation:

Read Matthew 25 and Luke 12 about what happens to the disobedient servants in both those chapters, salvation is not given to them but instead cast into outer darkness and appointed with the unbelievers in punishment.

And don't say they were unbelievers because in both passage He calls them His servants or He their Master....

 

[fordman]

Okay Ken C, Vdp, MikeHenderson, and whoever for that matter, care to take a crack at the scenerio I put forth to Paul Mack?

Ponder the following example. Imagine a Christian man, justified by the Lord, loses his temper and yells at his next door neighbors for letting their dog dig a hole in his yard. We can see that the man treated his neighbors rudely, albeit the neighbor’s behavior was also reprehensible. His actions would be considered a light sin (called venial sins by the Catholic Church).

It’s not of the same moral weight as theft or murder, but it’s still a sin.
After shouting at the neighbors, with all the anger and stress in his body the man walks into his house, has a heart attack, and dies having just committed a small sin in the final moments of his life. Remember, this man is Christian and justified by the Lord, yet has committed a sin. Does he go to heaven or does he go to hell?

　

Also, would like to here your take on the passages 1Cor.3:11-15:

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.12.If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,13.the work of each will come to light, for the Day[SUP]*[/SUP][SUP][/SUP] will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.14.If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.15.But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

Do any of you deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death?
　
　


Pax Christi

 

[epostle]

Read it and shows the falsehood in the thinking because the verses provided from Jesus have nothing to do with Purgatory.

If that was the case you would have the Lord's own words contradicting themselves which can not happen, as Jesus showed clearly that if you are not saved before you die there is no escaping punishment afterwards.

The whole Purgatory stance has a unsaved person purged of sins and saved after death, which is a false teaching.........

No one has said purgatory is for the unsaved, quite the opposite. They are all bound for heaven.

A**killer** proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be foundby comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaksof the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom ofAbraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death,Resurrection, and Ascension for this.

Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, theGod-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanitybefore the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham"in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "theParadise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which waswithdrawn from the earth; but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now,... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 daysin the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol.
...And, as John 20:17 hammers home forus, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended tothe Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace--saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediatelyenter Heaven.

Catholics don't deny our Judaic heritage,
we don't deny the archaeological evidence from the first 3 centuries,
we don't reinterpret scripture force fitting it into man made systems
we don't dismiss the Early Church Fathers as meaningless
and we don't accept human opinion that eliminates God's justice.

you do

 

[fordman]

It has been demonstrated, using Protestant sources, that the authority of the Catholic Church discerned and assembled the Bible in the 4th century as we know it is today.

Funny you mention this epostle, I couldn't help but notice in the thread, "Just Got My First Ever Bible - How Should I Read It?"

Out of the 24 differnt posters, not one answered the OP second question:

How/when did it (the bible) come into existence?

Wonder why?
　

Pax tecum

 

[notuptome]

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin -- which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven. This is important to understand.
Purgatory pays for the "consequences" of our sin, not for the sin itself.

Wow just wow.

The consequences of sin is death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You have given a prime example of Romanism's double talk. The blood of Christ makes full atonement for sin and Gods gift of eternal life is given solely by grace.

Jesus said of those in the grave that they could not pass between condemnation and Abrahams bosom.

Luke 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is not a problem of misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians. The problem is between Catholics and Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

I take issue with those who believe Purgatory is a place. It's obvious that all Christians believe that either in death or after we are purged of all iniquity...whether this be the Judgment Seat of Christ or the act of dying itself, we all believe we are perfected. Why is this the issue? Unless someone believes that this Purgation is a realm separate from Heaven or Hell, I find it odd that this is a point of contention.

 

[Mec99]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
[SUP]10 [/SUP] According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 3 is all about our rewards in Heaven. its not about spending time in Purgatory. Its the WORKS we do that will be tested, not us. Its the Rewards in Heaven that we receive is what these verses are talking about.

But yet Catholicism will quote these verses to prove their man made doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[Mec99]

1 John 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Here is a word that the Catholics hate. The word ALL.

If the Blood of Jesus HAS cleansed us from ALL our sins, then the sin yelling at his neighbor has already been forgiven by Jesus. The sin of yelling at the neighbor has already been cleansed from this person by the Blood of Jesus.

Therefore YES fordman this person will enter into Heaven!

What this proves is fordman and epostle believe we WORK for our Salvation. Therefore if we work for our Salvation we can lose our Salvation by our works. This is a false doctrinr taught by the Catholic Church.

 

[Mec99]

GRACE

Romans 3:21-24
[SUP]21 [/SUP] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
[SUP]22 [/SUP] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


Ephesians 1:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

Ephesians 2:4-5 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—


Its by the Grace of God we have been Saved. Not by not sinning like the Catholics teach.

You cannot lose your Salvation by sinning like the Catholics teach. Therefore Purgatory is a false doctrine made up by the Catholic Church to put themselves above God.

 

[Mec99]

The problem as I see it is not a misunderstanding between Catholics and Christians.

The problem is the hatred the Catholics have for the very Word of God. Its what God says in the Scriptures that the Catholics have a misunderstanding with, not with us Christians.

The Catholics want to play God, telling others what they want the Truth to be, not what the Truth is.

For centuries the Catholics have rejected what God the Holy Spirit has said to follow the teachings of evil men.

It does not matter what you say fordman for you are not a Christian and do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Neither does epostle have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 2:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP] I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

The Catholics are trying to deceive us, BUT we have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit who teaches us everything and is True. Therefore we do not need the Catholics trying to teach us for we have the Holy Spirit who is True and above the Catholics.

 

[Matt210]

Mec, I have been desperately trying to establish which Bibles everyone here reads. They can vary immensely. What you have just quoted does not appear in the Bible I read, as you have it quoted. We need to establish which Bible(s) are accurate and which ones are not. This should begin by figuring out when each version showed up and which humans had a part in translating and assembling it.

 

[epostle]

I take issue with those who believe Purgatory is a place. It's obvious that all Christians believe that either in death or after we are purged of all iniquity...whether this be the Judgment Seat of Christ or the act of dying itself, we all believe we are perfected. Why is this the issue? Unless someone believes that this Purgation is a realm separate from Heaven or Hell, I find it odd that this is a point of contention.

IMO, Purgatory is not a place or a realm, it is a state of being. The problem with infused justification is that it has to rationalize the coexistence of God with sin; the Perfect united with the imperfect. That is not heaven and God is not blind. If "covered up" sins can get into heaven, it doesn't say much for God. I suspect the rejection of Purgatory was a consequence of justification by faith alone (JBFA) (rejected by half of Protestantism) With that view, nobody needs a final purification. There are no imperfections (hay, wood, straw) on anyone who is saved, dead or alive. (rejected by half of Protestantism). This isn't even logical. It leads to other errors such as eternal security. That's the root of the contention, I think.

Wow just wow.

The consequences of sin is death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Those verses have nothing to do with purgatory.

You have given a prime example of Romanism's double talk. The blood of Christ makes full atonement for sin and Gods gift of eternal life is given solely by grace.

Jesus said of those in the grave that they could not pass between condemnation and Abrahams bosom.

Jesus said there is no getting out hell. That's not purgatory. Scroll up to post #427. I think you glossed over it.

Luke 16:19 ¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

There is not a problem of misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians. The problem is between Catholics and Gods word.

If the rich man is in hell, how can he pray to father Abraham to "send Lazarus"?

*hint* Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

Funny you mention this epostle, I couldn't help but notice in the thread, "Just Got My First Ever Bible - How Should I Read It?"

Out of the 24 differnt posters, not one answered the OP second question:

Wonder why?
　
Pax tecum

Do I get one guess or two?

 

[notuptome]

I take issue with those who believe Purgatory is a place. It's obvious that all Christians believe that either in death or after we are purged of all iniquity...whether this be the Judgment Seat of Christ or the act of dying itself, we all believe we are perfected. Why is this the issue? Unless someone believes that this Purgation is a realm separate from Heaven or Hell, I find it odd that this is a point of contention.

Are you teaching universalism? All souls will be saved?

There is no purging beyond the blood of Christ.

The judgment seat of Christ is for rewards not salvation. Hell is a place which is cast into the lake of fire. Heaven is where the saved of God live forever.

The whole point here is that purgatory does not exist and is a fiction created by the Catholic church to give hope to those who do not meet expectations of their righteous works in this life.

Rome has always taught that man cannot know if he is saved. Gods grace teaches that a man is saved and the Holy Spirit provides witness to the fact with the man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Mec, I have been desperately trying to establish which Bibles everyone here reads. They can vary immensely. What you have just quoted does not appear in the Bible I read, as you have it quoted. We need to establish which Bible(s) are accurate and which ones are not. This should begin by figuring out when each version showed up and which humans had a part in translating and assembling it.

Pick any version you wish. Unless you are reading from an original manuscript in Hebrew or Greek you are reading a translation. Some are more accurate to the originals but Gods word even in it's meanest form is still Gods word.

Show me from it how you are saved. Show me why you know you are saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[KennethC]

No one has said purgatory is for the unsaved, quite the opposite. They are all bound for heaven.

A**killer** proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be foundby comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaksof the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom ofAbraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death,Resurrection, and Ascension for this.

Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, theGod-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanitybefore the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham"in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "theParadise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which waswithdrawn from the earth; but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now,... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 daysin the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol.
...And, as John 20:17 hammers home forus, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended tothe Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace--saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediatelyenter Heaven.

Catholics don't deny our Judaic heritage,
we don't deny the archaeological evidence from the first 3 centuries,
we don't reinterpret scripture force fitting it into man made systems
we don't dismiss the Early Church Fathers as meaningless
and we don't accept human opinion that eliminates God's justice.

you do

So its for the saved then, which would then still be wrong because Jesus said our sins are forgiven "never" to be used against again.

Having Purgatory being for believers then you have us being punished for sins that were forgiven....Still wrong !!!

 

[Matt210]

Here's my take on how this conversation is going.

Catholic person states a premise. They use quotes, history, logic, facts to back up said premise. They then ask questions to establish where we stand.

Protestant responds, nu uh. That's not true because I said so. They proceed to not answer said questions or give any substantial reason as to why they disagree with Catholic viewpoint. I can honestly say that I have no idea what most of you guys actually believe. Does anyone here have the courage to name your denomination so that I can attempt to educate myself on what Bible you read and what you believe in?