misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[notuptome]

Here's my take on how this conversation is going.

Catholic person states a premise. They use quotes, history, logic, facts to back up said premise. They then ask questions to establish where we stand.

Protestant responds, nu uh. That's not true because I said so. They proceed to not answer said questions or give any substantial reason as to why they disagree with Catholic viewpoint. I can honestly say that I have no idea what most of you guys actually believe. Does anyone here have the courage to name your denomination so that I can attempt to educate myself on what Bible you read and what you believe in?

Of course that's your take.

Christians who are Christians according to the biblical definition rely on the bible not a host of secular documents.

I use an English translation based on the 1611 King James. I do not have any issues with similar versions like the NIV as most are true to the original manuscripts. I am OK with the Catholic Douay-Rheims bible.

Now tell me if you have assurance of your salvation. If you died today would you be in heaven with Jesus? Scripture says that those who are saved should be able to give a reason for the hope that lies within them.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Skinski7]

Okay Ken C, Vdp, MikeHenderson, and whoever for that matter, care to take a crack at the scenerio I put forth to Paul Mack?


Also, would like to here your take on the passages 1Cor.3:11-15:

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.12.If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,13.the work of each will come to light, for the Day[SUP]*[/SUP] will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.14.If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.15.But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

Do any of you deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death?
　
Pax Christi

1. Your first point is an argument for being able to sin and not surely die. It is just dressed up in the notion that one can get away with "small sins" (which you call Venial) if one is frustrated. The truth is that a genuine Christian abides in the Spirit of Jesus Christ and walks by a faith that works by love and has victory over the flesh, sin and the devil. Anything less than complete victory is a defence of being able to engage in evil and get away with it.

2. Your second point is a misrepresentation of the text. Paul is speaking in the context of works as they relate to church growth. Paul planted, Apollos watered, yet it is God who gives the increase. God works through people, people are not an isolated function in themselves. Jesus is the foundation upon which all else is built and the Christian ought pay attention in what manner they build. The work of building is tested by fire with the unproductive work burned away. The loss and reward is contextually the fruit of that labour, is the labour fruitful or not?

The text has nothing to do with being able to serve evil and get away with it either via purgatory (Catholic) or forensic justification (Protestant) for Paul writes...

1Co 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Paul wrote 1Cor 3 in order to push the point that Christians not elevate teachers one above another and end up glorying in men instead of God.

 

[49]

According to your criteria, God told Moses to make an idol. And I can tell you are not a British monarchist.

[video=youtube;kUdYeYy3NQA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA[/video]

Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Didn't say anything about kneeling, bowing or worshipping it...just look at it. Nope, not British; or a monarchist. Smile!

 

[Mec99]

We have shown over and over again Matt210 in Scriptures where God says the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin.

ESV Version
1 John 1:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

KJV version
1 John 1:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

NASB version
1 John 1:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

NKJV version
1 John 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Each on says the same theme. Its the Blood of Jesus which washes us clean of ALL our sins. Not just some or only a few sins. Its ALL the sins we have done and we will do that the Blood of Jesus HAS washed us clean from.

Therefore if the Blood of Jesus HAS cleansed us of ALL of our sins, then how can the Catholics claim we need to spend time in Purgatory for our sins?

There is NO stain left from our sins. The stain of sins was invented by the Catholics to justify their teachings of us working for our Salvation.

The Catholics will never Inherit the Kingdom of God because they have not received Salvation. The Catholics have been brainwashed into believing they will receive Salvation AFTER they die and not before they die. God clearly says we receive Salvation before we die, not after. This is why no Catholic will ever enter into Heaven, instead the Lake of Fire is where they will spend Eternity.

 

[fordman]

1. Your first point is an argument for being able to sin and not surely die. It is just dressed up in the notion that one can get away with "small sins" (which you call Venial) if one is frustrated. The truth is that a genuine Christian abides in the Spirit of Jesus Christ and walks by a faith that works by love and has victory over the flesh, sin and the devil. Anything less than complete victory is a defence of being able to engage in evil and get away with it.

And yet, you still didn't answer the question.....Again I ask, after shouting at the neighbors, with all the anger and stress in his body the man walks into his house, has a heart attack, and dies having just committed a small sin in the final moments of his life. Remember, this man is Christian and justified by the Lord, yet has committed a sin.

"Does he go to heaven or does he go to hell?"

2. Your second point is a misrepresentation of the text. Paul is speaking in the context of works as they relate to church growth. Paul planted, Apollos watered, yet it is God who gives the increase. God works through people, people are not an isolated function in themselves. Jesus is the foundation upon which all else is built and the Christian ought pay attention in what manner they build. The work of building is tested by fire with the unproductive work burned away. The loss and reward is contextually the fruit of that labour, is the labour fruitful or not?

Okay then, I'll refure back to page 21 of this thread, post #410, section, The Plainest Text:

It says our works will go through "fire," figuratively speaking. In Scripture, "fire" is used metaphorically in two ways: as a purifying agent (Mal. 3:2-3; Matt. 3:11; Mark 9:49); and as that which consumes (Matt. 3:12; 2 Thess. 1:7-8). So it is a fitting symbol here for God’s judgment. Some of the "works" represented are being burned up and some are being purified. These works survive or burn according to their essential "quality" (Gr. hopoiov - of what sort).What is being referred to cannot be heaven because there are imperfections that need to be "burned up" (see again, Rev. 21:27, Hab. 1:13). It cannot be hell because souls are being saved. So what is it? The Protestant calls it "the Judgment" and we Catholics agree. We Catholics simply specify the part of the judgment of the saved where imperfections are purged as "Purgatory."

And section "Objection!" from same thread/page/post:

The Protestant respondent will immediately spotlight the fact that there is no mention, at least explicitly, of "the cleansing of sin" anywhere in the text. There is only the testing of works. The focus is on the rewards believers will receive for their service, not on how their character is cleansed from sin or imperfection. And the believers here watch their works go through the fire, but they escape it!

First, what are sins, but bad or wicked works (see Matthew 7:21-23, John 8:40, Galatians 5:19-21)? If these "works" do not represent sins and imperfections, why would they need to be eliminated? Second, it is impossible for a "work" to be cleansed apart from the human being who performed it. We are, in a certain sense, what we do when it comes to our moral choices. There is no such thing as a "work" floating around somewhere detached from a human being that could be cleansed apart from that human being. The idea of works being separate from persons does not make sense.
Most importantly, however, this idea of "works" being "burned up" apart from the soul that performed the work contradicts the text itself. The text does say the works will be tested by fire, but "if the work survives... he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss." And, "he will be saved, but only as through fire" (Gr. dia puros).

The text has nothing to do with being able to serve evil and get away with it either via purgatory (Catholic) or forensic justification (Protestant) for Paul writes...

The truth is: both the works of the individual and the individual will go through the cleansing "fire" described by St. Paul in order that "he" might finally be saved and enter into the joy of the Lord. Sounds an awful lot like Purgatory.

Paul wrote 1Cor 3 in order to push the point that Christians not elevate teachers one above another and end up glorying in men instead of God.

Is this your personal interpretation of these passages? If so, can you assure us that they are infallible, absolute, and without error?
　


Pax Christi



　
　


　















[/QUOTE]

 

[notuptome]

Okay Ken C, Vdp, MikeHenderson, and whoever for that matter, care to take a crack at the scenerio I put forth to Paul Mack?


　

Also, would like to here your take on the passages 1Cor.3:11-15:

"for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ.12.If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,13.the work of each will come to light, for the Day[SUP]*[/SUP] will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work.14.If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.15.But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

Do any of you deny this text speaks of the judgment of God where the works of the faithful will be tested after death?
　
　


Pax Christi

Works of the believer are tried in the fire. Those that pass the test remain as rewards for Christ. The believer himself or herself are never subjected to the fire. The believer is never in danger of loos of salvation. But each must give account for what they have done since they have been saved.

Still avoiding the critical question of your personal eternal salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[epostle]

Of course that's your take.

Christians who are Christians according to the biblical definition rely on the bible not a host of secular documents.

A biblical Christian is one who is baptized. Doctrines come from the deposit of faith, church teaching does not come from secular documents.

I use an English translation based on the 1611 King James. I do not have any issues with similar versions like the NIV as most are true to the original manuscripts. I am OK with the Catholic Douay-Rheims bible.

Now tell me if you have assurance of your salvation. If you died today would you be in heaven with Jesus? Scripture says that those who are saved should be able to give a reason for the hope that lies within them.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"Hope" does not mean "assurance" or there would be no need to hope.

1. Your first point is an argument for being able to sin and not surely die. It is just dressed up in the notion that one can get away with "small sins" (which you call Venial) if one is frustrated. The truth is that a genuine Christian abides in the Spirit of Jesus Christ and walks by a faith that works by love and has victory over the flesh, sin and the devil. Anything less than complete victory is a defence of being able to engage in evil and get away with it.

You have no way of knowing who is a genuine Christian is apart from a superficial Christian who does not endure to the end. The only way we know for sure is after death. Christians who as holy as you describe are often accompanied by signs and wonders. But most of us struggling Christians are not so pompous to think we never sin in thought, word, or deed.

2. Your second point is a misrepresentation of the text. Paul is speaking in the context of works as they relate to church growth.

There is no verse where Paul points his analogy to the whole Church.
1 Cor. 3: 12 Now if any one builds...
13 each man's work... ...what sort of work each one has done.
15 If any man's work is burnedup,

This is about purification of the soul, not church growth.

Paul planted, Apollos watered, yet it is God who gives the increase.

Planting and watering has to do with the function of a bishop, it has nothing to do with purgatory.

God works through people, people are not an isolated function in themselves. Jesus is the foundation upon which all else is built and the Christian ought pay attention in what manner they build. The work of building is tested by fire with the unproductive work burned away. The loss and reward is contextually the fruit of that labour, is the labour fruitful or not?

Nowhere in scripture is the work of planting and watering, functions of a bishop, purified by fire after death. They are totally different metaphors with different applications. Fusing the two makes no sense.

The text has nothing to do with being able to serve evil and get away with it either via purgatory (Catholic) or forensic justification (Protestant) for Paul writes...

Who said anything about serving evil and getting away with it? Tell that to the "guaranteed salvation" crowd.

1Co 3:16-17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Doesn't it stand to reason to defile a temple means you need a holy temple in the first place? Do you think consequences of stealing a pen from work is the same as the consequences of stealing food from a hungry family? Or will you argue that defiling the temple by stealing a pen will result in eternal damnation? Your system has no harmony with justice and mercy. (to be clear: stealing from a hungry family could result in eternal damnation)

Paul wrote 1Cor 3 in order to push the point that Christians not elevate teachers one above another and end up glorying in men instead of God.

That is not what 1 Cor. 3 says. Paul is talking about human wisdom isolated from divine guidance. Jesus founded a hierarchical, authoritive teaching Church. How is it biblical not to have bishops? Where do you suppose bishops come from? From other bishops. Like a pedigree. You can trace the dots back to the Apostles and now you want to use "glorifying men" as an excuse to rebel against the authority Jesus gave His Apostles and their successors. Most of them are humble servants of the Gospel and they deserve our respect. They are not the ego inflated preachers you see on you tube and TV.

​

 

[Skinski7]

Each on says the same theme. Its the Blood of Jesus which washes us clean of ALL our sins. Not just some or only a few sins. Its ALL the sins we have done and we will do that the Blood of Jesus HAS washed us clean from.

You condemn the Catholics for not believing in your own version of being able to sin and not surely die.

By upholding the notion that the blood of Jesus has already washed you clean of your future sins you are advocating that blood of Jesus is actually a license to sin. In others words you can sin in the future and not perish because you are already clean.

Satan advocated a similar doctrine in the garden, your version just adds the blood of Jesus to the mix.

 

[notuptome]

A biblical Christian is one who is baptized. Doctrines come from the deposit of faith, church teaching does not come from secular documents.

Classic double talk. Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God which is the bible. The church is not a building or an organization. Christ did not come to earth to establish an organization but to birth an organism. Your catechisms are secular documents.

"Hope" does not mean "assurance" or there would be no need to hope.

Believers have certain hope not as earthly hope where there is some chance for disappointment. Believers have a certain hope in Christ because they know God does not lie and all that God has promised He will perform.

You have no way of knowing who is a genuine Christian is apart from a superficial Christian who does not endure to the end. The only way we know for sure is after death. Christians who as holy as you describe are often accompanied by signs and wonders. But most of us struggling Christians are not so pompous to think we never sin in thought, word, or deed.

This is why you anguish and have no peace. You will not trust Christ to perform that which He has promised. The rest is just blather.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Matt210]

I want to begin this post by stating that my explanation is borderline lazy, however it works for me. I have heard this topic spoken on much more eloquently and using hundreds of Biblical quotes. My explanation will not do so for this reason: the most basic logical conclusion to salvation is very easy.

I ask anyone here which premise makes more logical sense.

Person A: Stands before the congregation of his church and proclaims in his heart, mind, and soul that Jesus Christ is his personal Lord and Savior. Ten years later he murders his wife and rapes his children. He is still assured salvation because of what he said ten years prior. No need to live a moral life, he is saved.

Person B: Commits even worse sins than person A, yet he later repents of these sins. In his new found knowledge of Our Lord he understands that he must be constantly vigilant against sinning again, knowing that salvation is not guaranteed by saying one phrase. When he does sin (everyone on this site does including myself) he understands that repentance is necessary.

This is my lazy response, there are much more Biblically sound arguments out there, but his one makes sense to me.

 

[Matt210]

After reflection and prayer on the matters that we are discussing, I realize I am approaching all of these topics in a way that is not the most conducive to helping each other find Truth.

May I offer another approach, if anyone wishes to partake in this educational experience, I propose this. You ask me to read any book of your choosing, only one book at a time, I am but one man. It may also be a video, lecture, etc. to explain where you are coming from and what you believe. I will offer the same. We both investigate thoroughly what the other's book, lecture, video, etc. had to say. We listen with an open mind and then ask questions, we will all learn through this process.

 

[chanchuinchoy]

Catholics have some strange acts which is not biblical, like;

1) use right hand finger to make a cross sign when prayer or receiving holy communion.
2) use of rosery when meditating/prayer (exactly the same as Buddism).
3) over-emphasis on the Mary, mother of Jesus. Thats why majority of catholics does not have powerful spiritual life.

 

[Matt210]

Catholics have some strange acts which is not biblical, like;

1) use right hand finger to make a cross sign when prayer or receiving holy communion.
2) use of rosery when meditating/prayer (exactly the same as Buddism).
3) over-emphasis on the Mary, mother of Jesus. Thats why majority of catholics does not have powerful spiritual life.

This website shows exactly what Catholics believe, why they believe it, and uses Biblical references to every point. Please stop making up our beliefs for us.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

This is the online version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We have never hid our beliefs. Please read even part of this and see how many lies people have taught you about what we believe.

I ask one question, why would anyone make up lies about a religion that so clearly and openly states their beliefs?

 

[Matt210]

To help out anyone that goes to the site, the book is broken down by subjects. If you have a question, just ask and I can show you where to find the exact pages.

 

[epostle]

Classic double talk. Faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God which is the bible.

For the third time, "word of God" does not mean written word alone. Nowhere in the whole bible does the phrase "word of God" used that way. The bible says nothing about reading it. It is to be heard when read aloud in the churches. That is how it is heard. There was no complete bible as we know it until 397 AD. There was no such thing as a "Bible Christian" before that time because there was no complete bible! What about the 99.9% of Christians who were illiterate? The focus was on what was taught by the Apostles (which help shape what was legitimate scripture). The Bible is a fruit of the Church, you have it backwards.

The church is not a building or an organization. Christ did not come to earth to establish an organization but to birth an organism.

False dichotomy. It's both or the Church would not have survived.

Your catechisms are secular documents.

Red herring to the discussion. Catechisms are a summary of summaries of Church teaching. If it were not for 2000 years of questioning, challenging, and heretical assaults in an ever changing world, we probably wouldn't need them.

Believers have certain hope not as earthly hope where there is some chance for disappointment. Believers have a certain hope in Christ because they know God does not lie and all that God has promised He will perform.

"certain hope" is an oxymoron.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

I have 25+ more.

This is why you anguish and have no peace.

A false judgmental assumption.

You will not trust Christ to perform that which He has promised. The rest is just blather.

"what he has promised" according to who? John Calvin?

Catholics have some strange acts which is not biblical, like;

There is nothing in the Bible that says all customs, beliefs, practices and devotions must be explicitly found in scripture. That is an unbiblical doctrine, a man made tradition.

1) use right hand finger to make a cross sign when prayer or receiving holy communion.

The sign of the cross is closely tied to baptism. Jesus told the apostles, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us that when Catholics are baptized “the sign of the cross, on the threshold of the celebration, marks with the imprint of Christ the one who is going to belong to him and signifies the grace of the Redemption Christ won for us by his cross” (CCC 1235).

Thereafter, each time we make the sign of the cross we remember that we belong to Christ.
The Christian begins his day, his prayers, and his activities with the sign of the cross: “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God and calls on the Savior’s grace which lets him act in the Spirit as a child of the Father. The sign of the cross strengthens us in temptations and difficulties. (CCC 2157)
more details here: The Biblical Roots of the Sign of the Cross

2) use of rosery when meditating/prayer (exactly the same as Buddism).

Buddhists don't meditate on the major events in the Bible, the rosary is a means for this. http://www.catholicbible101.com/therosary.htm
phat catholic apologetics: Is the Rosary "Vain Repitition"?

3) over-emphasis on the Mary, mother of Jesus.

Catholics are not as obsessed with Mary as anti-Catholics are about condemning something they refuse to understand. Since true devotion to Mary always leads to a deeper relationship with her Son, that is where the emphasis truly is, or it is a false devotion. Devotion to Mary is not an obstacle to God anymore than she is an obstacle to bringing her Son into the world.

Thats why majority of catholics does not have powerful spiritual life.

To argue that Catholicism is untrue because it doesn't transform the lives of those who don't practice it, is like arguing that aspirin doesn't work because it doesn't relieve the headaches of those who don't take it.

Try to remember that many people are Catholic by default. If you ask them what they are, they'll say, "Oh, I'm Catholic." But what they mean is, "My ancestors were Catholic." It's more an ethnicity than a religion for some people. It's what they are, not what they believe.

But to compare the best Evangelicals with the worst Catholics is hardly fair. If you want to see the real fruit of the Catholic faith, look at the people who actually put it into practice. As you know, the Catholic Church has produced some of the greatest, most on-fire saints the world has ever known. Some of them converted whole nations to Christ. We still marvel at their faith and holiness many centuries after they died.
How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?

 

[epostle]

This website shows exactly what Catholics believe, why they believe it, and uses Biblical references to every point. Please stop making up our beliefs for us.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

This is the online version of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We have never hid our beliefs. Please read even part of this and see how many lies people have taught you about what we believe.

I ask one question, why would anyone make up lies about a religion that so clearly and openly states their beliefs?

No serious student of religion or history would ever believe the absurd charges that Chick Publications specializes in, (often quoted under bible.ca, jesus-is-lord.corn etc. in this forum) but that should hardly give us pause.

There are millions of people all over the world who want to believe the worst about the Catholic Church, and unsophisticated though they may be, these men, women and children will never dislodge themselves of their hatred for Catholicism as long as they are given a steady supply of Chick fodder. To be sure, the Church will survive this assault, but that doesn’t relieve the objections that fair-minded people of every religion should have about Chick.

What makes Chick tick? In one four-letter word, it’s called ENVY. Chick writers attribute fantastic powers to the Catholic Church precisely because they see in the Church a strength and resourcefulness that is absent in Protestantism. In the West, in particular, Chick authors believe that Protestantism should have eclipsed Catholicism long ago. But it hasn’t, for reasons that reasonable people can debate. What can’t be debated is that those driven by envy (with a little madness thrown in) will never cease their offensive against the Church. The one true Church, that is.
A SURVEY OF CHICK PUBLICATIONS - Catholic League

The Nightmare World of Jack T. Chick | Catholic Answers

 

[Mec99]

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

John 3:16
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Tell me Skinski7 how do we receive Salvation?

Do we receive Salvation by not sinning? Do we receive Salvation by walking a thousand miles? Do we receive Salvation by paying a million dollars to the Catholic Church?

NO!

We receive Salvation by GRACE!

We HAVE BEEN SAVED by Grace!

Therefore how can we lose our Salvation by sinning if we have received it by Grace?

Its people like you who are teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. In your passion to be better and above all you teach we can lose our Salvation by sinning. This is a lie from Satan that we can lose our Salvation just by sinning.

Its by the GRACE of God that we receive Salvation, not by not sinning like Satan and you teach.

Therefore once Saved always Saved because you cannot lose your Salvation!

Show us Skinski7 where in the Scriptures does God say if we sin we have lost our Salvation?

Its our Rewards in Heaven we lose when we sin, not our Salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
[SUP]13 [/SUP] each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Its our Rewards we can lose Skinski7, not our Salvation.

 

[Mec99]

1 John 1:7
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Clearly Skinski7 God in this verse says the Blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin! Does not say just the present or past sins only. It says ALL sins which includes future sins in our life.

So why Skinski7 are you teaching the doctrines of Satan?

Have you ever received Salvation? Are you walking with Jesus? Or are you one of the false prophets God speaks about in the Scriptures?

Matthew 7:15
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

 

[notuptome]

For the third time, "word of God" does not mean written word alone. Nowhere in the whole bible does the phrase "word of God" used that way. The bible says nothing about reading it. It is to be heard when read aloud in the churches. That is how it is heard. There was no complete bible as we know it until 397 AD. There was no such thing as a "Bible Christian" before that time because there was no complete bible! What about the 99.9% of Christians who were illiterate? The focus was on what was taught by the Apostles (which help shape what was legitimate scripture). The Bible is a fruit of the Church, you have it backwards. False dichotomy. It's both or the Church would not have survived. Red herring to the discussion. Catechisms are a summary of summaries of Church teaching. If it were not for 2000 years of questioning, challenging, and heretical assaults in an ever changing world, we probably wouldn't need them.

Really? Israel had the word of God for thousands of years before Christ came to earth. The apostles taught Christ from the OT scrolls until the NT was delivered through the Holy Spirit from the words of Christ Himself. Jesus taught from and affirmed the validity of the OT scriptures not rabbinical teachings.

"certain hope" is an oxymoron.

Perhaps for those who perish. For those who have received of the grace of God it is full assurance that Christ has saved them sealed them and they will be presented in the day of redemption.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

I have 25+ more.

If only you would believe even one of them with the knowledge of the truth who is Christ.

A false judgmental assumption. "what he has promised" according to who? John Calvin?

Cheap and uncalled for attempt to demean a man you despise. Calvin knew Christ and opposed the Catholic church so he is their enemy.

There is nothing in the Bible that says all customs, beliefs, practices and devotions must be explicitly found in scripture. That is an unbiblical doctrine, a man made tradition.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The sign of the cross is closely tied to baptism. Jesus told the apostles, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us that when Catholics are baptized “the sign of the cross, on the threshold of the celebration, marks with the imprint of Christ the one who is going to belong to him and signifies the grace of the Redemption Christ won for us by his cross” (CCC 1235).

Thereafter, each time we make the sign of the cross we remember that we belong to Christ.
The Christian begins his day, his prayers, and his activities with the sign of the cross: “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” The baptized person dedicates the day to the glory of God and calls on the Savior’s grace which lets him act in the Spirit as a child of the Father. The sign of the cross strengthens us in temptations and difficulties. (CCC 2157)
more details here: The Biblical Roots of the Sign of the Cross
Buddhists don't meditate on the major events in the Bible, the rosary is a means for this. http://www.catholicbible101.com/therosary.htm
phat catholic apologetics: Is the Rosary "Vain Repitition"?
Catholics are not as obsessed with Mary as anti-Catholics are about condemning something they refuse to understand. Since true devotion to Mary always leads to a deeper relationship with her Son, that is where the emphasis truly is, or it is a false devotion. Devotion to Mary is not an obstacle to God anymore than she is an obstacle to bringing her Son into the world. To argue that Catholicism is untrue because it doesn't transform the lives of those who don't practice it, is like arguing that aspirin doesn't work because it doesn't relieve the headaches of those who don't take it.

Try to remember that many people are Catholic by default. If you ask them what they are, they'll say, "Oh, I'm Catholic." But what they mean is, "My ancestors were Catholic." It's more an ethnicity than a religion for some people. It's what they are, not what they believe.

But to compare the best Evangelicals with the worst Catholics is hardly fair. If you want to see the real fruit of the Catholic faith, look at the people who actually put it into practice. As you know, the Catholic Church has produced some of the greatest, most on-fire saints the world has ever known. Some of them converted whole nations to Christ. We still marvel at their faith and holiness many centuries after they died.
How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?

Romanism's favorite propaganda Mat 28:19 is not speaking of water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mec99]

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Let us reason together with this verse epostle.

1. "by grace you have been saved".

God says "by GRACE" we HAVE been saved. Its the Grace from God that saves us. Also God says we HAVE been Saved. Not we will be Saved later, but we HAVE been saved now! This very minute we HAVE been Saved! We receive Salvation in the present time, not the Future time like you Catholics teach.

2. Its a Gift from God.

Salvation is a Gift from God and not something we receive by not sinning like you Catholics teach. Therefore if Salvation is a gift then you cannot lose your Salvation by sinning!

2. not of Works!

Salvation can NEVER be received by Working for it! You cannot work for your Salvation epostle! Spending time in Purgatory for your sins is WORKING for your Salvation!